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[Baleoce]

Most if not all of my static is about to quit XIV. Probably going to check out 3.2 to see if it revitalises it, but not gonna hold our breath. It was a really odd moment. We just started chatting at the start of the event, and asked each other, do any of us actually play outside of static any more / or are enthusiastic about the current content? And nobody answered yes. I know whenever I *do* logon outside of it, I just twiddle my thumbs for a bit and go do something else.

 

[lazygecko]

WoW's problem is something that it created itself, basically as soon as new content comes out all the old stuff is obsolete and meaningless.

So when expansion 3 comes out everything from expansion 2 has no more value then when patch 2 of expansion 3 comes out there is some dungeon or mechanic that fast tracks everyone to patch 2 content.

So they keep making all their old stuff worthless, basically making people not climb a ladder constantly at their own pace but always bumping them up to the last couple steps as the ladder gets taller.

I've always viewed this as an inherent design flaw. The way they treat the majority of all the content they made as these disposable stepping stones simply confounds me. Whenever people bring up the argument that other MMOs have the odds stacked against them because WoW has such a metric shitton of legacy content making up its world, they seem to forget that merely a fraction of this stuff is going to have any real relevance to the playerbase.

It doesn't help that Blizzard were making things even worse by actively herding the playerbase to whatever the latest raid tier was. They've been trying to improve this, but at a molasses pace as usual. I think the Timewalking feature they implemented in WoD could significantly mitgate this if they keep expanding on the kind of content it covers. Especially by incorporating old raids as well.

 

[tci]

In regards of Wildstar. The content draught isn't as problematic as other MMO's imo. The combat system makes it still insanely fun and rewarding (maximizing,speed runs). I still do dungeons many times pr. day just for the fun of it. Still being high ilvl, you can die easily if you miss one mechanic. Creating often hilarious moments.

Personally I am still not started on DS. Getting close tho. Only missing Ohmna (6/6 GA). Looking forward to at least 4-6 months of DS content (raid 2). Wildstar is the only MMO I really fell in love with. WoW gets so boring after a while, as well as Aion, Rift. Combat is too linear and mechanics outdated.

Content will always be a problem. And I agree with what lazygecko posted above. It is an design flaw with MMO's. It drives the progression of the game. But there is so much content there, lying around. There is no point in the low level locations. Why not make them matter again?

Starting an MMO is always really fun and interesting. You see high lvl players roaming the land, showing off awesome gear and mounts. Why are these so locked away from the leveling process? Make more use of the old content. Why not put high lvl stuff into low level locations. Make players interact with each other in a more interesting way.

Making new zones and other stuff takes a lot of time. Make the best of what you have and explore more solutions. You don't need to create everything from scratch each time.

 

[Silvawuff]

I think it's a subscription model paired with player perception of value that make this content drought paradigm such a vicious spiral. MMOs don't have to be the one-and-only games people play. I know a lot of people like the hardcore min/max grind, but I think it's perfectly acceptable to burn through content and come back later once more comes out.

WoW really has no excuse for such a slow content cycle.

 

[lazygecko]

Make players interact with each other in a more interesting way.

This has been the other big design bugbear for me, in how dogmatic it became to essentially compartmentalize the entire playerbase via the leveling range and then the "endgame". The mantra "the real game doesn't start until the endgame" which everyone came to accept as truth just made me cringe. And eventually the issue is greatly compounded by the majority of the active playerbase congregating around the max level, while all of the low level content meant solely for leveling (which outdated expansion content is eventually relegated to as well) becomes a ghost town.

Making sure there are ways for the players of the world to be able to interact with eachother in meaningful ways, regardless of the level gap, is something I consider extremly important for the social health of the game. I think Elder Scrolls Online deserves some compliments here for at least making an effort. They have a level scaling system which scales you up to whatever level the content is tuned for. This affects the newer DLC packs they release, as well as group instances. You won't be as powerful as you would with the "real" level (since you lack the extra skill or champion points you'd otherwise have), but at least it is doable.

 

[DJIzana]

I think it's a subscription model paired with player perception of value that make this content drought paradigm such a vicious spiral. MMOs don't have to be the one-and-only games people play. I know a lot of people like the hardcore min/max grind, but I think it's perfectly acceptable to burn through content and come back later once more comes out.

WoW really has no excuse for such a slow content cycle.

See... this poses two problems.

1. It's a hassle to un-sub / re-sub constantly or even or spurts.

2. By the time you re-sub to do the older content it's too difficult to do solo or no one else is doing it and you can't find a group.

 

[lazygecko]

There have also been rumors that there are some serious hierarchy/company culture problems internally at Blizzard which heavily impacts the rate of their content output.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Welcome to the world Theme Park MMO's. You rely on the devs to create content, but they're not humanly fast enough to create at the rate it's consumed i.e content locust. Why do you think every theme park mmo has a buttload of dallies? It's just an easy way to get people to replay content so they can buy some time.

It's the reason why games like DAoC, UO, Anarchy Online, Asheron Call 1 and 2 (now) Final Fantasy XI and multiple other MMO that are not Theme Park mmo's are still around is because they offer something different than just logging in and queuing up for instance dungeons and PvP and not even using the world that the devs created for the players in the first place.

Just look at how many upcoming MMO's have stopped the trying to copy the Theme Park design and going back to how MMO's use to be before WoW stagnated the genre for 10 years.

Can you name any?

The only one I know of that is sandboxy is Black Desert.

 

[unrealist]

I love both of these MMORPGs .. which seem to combat the problem of not having enough "new content". They are Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot. They do this by having really good PvP (at least for me) and allowing players to create their own content (more applicable to UO).

 

[Sophia]

I think it's a subscription model paired with player perception of value that make this content drought paradigm such a vicious spiral. MMOs don't have to be the one-and-only games people play. I know a lot of people like the hardcore min/max grind, but I think it's perfectly acceptable to burn through content and come back later once more comes out.

WoW really has no excuse for such a slow content cycle.

The problem with the constant "burning, unsubscribing, coming back later" cycle is that it absolutely destroys communities. Every single Free Company/Linkshell/Static in FFXIV that plays at endgame has experienced losing people as the cycle goes on. The casual players don't come back after they finish the stuff geared at them, the semi-hardcore players get frustrated when they hit a content wall, and the really hardcore have to scramble to recruit or reorganize after a fraction of the players they were playing with... stop. Not helped by the fact that FFXIV has a very specific eight person party limit for everything except some raids, which means inevitably groups are going to have to work around the fact that they have too few or too many players for whatever content in question.

It's really not good for anyone actually playing the game. Pardon my language, but I dare say it downright fucking sucks even.

 

[Azzurri]

Can you name any?

The only one I know of that is sandboxy is Black Desert.

Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, Lost Ark Online, Lineage Eternal, The Repopulation. Those are just off the top of my head.

These don't follow the Theme Park Model.

 

[Loona]

At least games like FFXI and Ragnarok have tried to change things with trust teams and events/quests while working on new characters.

To answer OP question, good itemization and a proper RPG system can go a long way to make content last.

The current FFXI isn't really that time-intensive for example or hard like it was years ago, and yet every content introduced offered plenty of playtime. There is more content in the last year of FFXI than in all of FFXIV.


FFXIV on other hand doesn't let you play around, stats have no depth, everything is essentially an exercise of repetition, to the battle system where you press 1-2-3 to maximize the DPS to the scripted boss battles. There is only one way to play the game, the way the developers meant it (barring some exceptions).

Also, I don't think Yoshi-P is really that competent. If Matsui can put out something like RoV with his skeleton crew on a 14 years old MMORPG that it's probably a mess to code, Yoshi-P really has no excuse.

This makes it even more frustrating that SE has basically deemed that FFXI will never get another major content update anymore (there are tweaks and quality of life stuff every once in a while though) - they want players to move to XIV, but even XIV's players are rejecting it now. The worst kind of content drought, mismanagement...

It would be less frustrating if some way to preserve or revitalize FFXI as a member of its own series was clearly discernible in SE's plans, but a simplified mobile take clearly isn't going to do it justice.

I hope they at least come to their senses and implement an account system that allows access to both games equally - get tired of one of the games? Try the other one, and so on...

At least nowadays FFXI is easier and soloable enough that you can do a fair bit of content, completing multiple mission lines even, with only about a month's subscription's worth of focused effort, so people who want to try and play all the FF games have an easier time not skipping XI.

 

[Stiler]

I think the issue is that mmo's have just gotten so used to the model of having both a subscription PLUS having new content be mainly reserved for "expansions" (which you in-turn have to pay for).


MMO's after Everquest came out largely adopted this route and built the business around it.


Whereas you had games like say, Asheron's Call, where they had monthly updates (for free) that could include new game content , the world constantly felt ever evolving and changing.

Part of the issue is the focus on "Raids" as end game content. I mean come on, mmo's have been around a while and this focus makes ZERO sense.

For one, the vast majority of the playerbase does not even FINISH raids. You can google up some records from many mmo's, from DAOC to WoW and see the % of players that do raids and finish them.


It's a vocal minority that do them and to cater the ENTIRE end-game toward this goal in an mmo is just both absurd and terrible from a business perspective. You end up with the ole "carrot on a stick" routine, people finish raid, game feels "completed" so you grind gear on the raid, then wait for the next expansion.

More mmo's need to find ways to have emergent gameplay that doesn't depend on raids or similar PVE focused end-games that provide the same experience over and over.

Look at other games for example, mp gameas that have live communities for years and years even with 0 new "content" added to the games, why do people keep playing them, why do they enjoy them?

Ultima Online survived for years with ZERO, let me repeat that, ZERO quests, not a single freaking npc with a "!" or "?" over their heads waiting to give you a quest to go out and kill a harmless woodland creature....over.....and over.....and over.

More mmo's need to start diverging and having new structures and gameplay that isn't the same as the tired theme-park/gear focused mmo like WoW and others built upon their house of cards.

 

[Atolm]

I just let Yoshida destroy my house, I played a bit of 3.1 but couldn't really justify paying the sub. Not enough content and the repetition is too apparent.

I think I'll go back to FFXI later this year. Now that the updates are done I want to check the story of the 2 expansions I missed.

 

[tci]

They have a level scaling system which scales you up to whatever level the content is tuned for. This affects the newer DLC packs they release, as well as group instances. You won't be as powerful as you would with the "real" level (since you lack the extra skill or champion points you'd otherwise have), but at least it is doable.

It is not a bad idea to do that. But I feel that it doesn't work challenge wise. Scaling content means mechanics will take a dive. High level content should introduce new mechanics that challenge a player gradually. Making scaling content mostly only works towards health and damage. It might work for a while, but the challenge and novelty will wear off eventually.

Most MMO's have a mentor system. That works scaling wise for the same thing. Although high lvl gear makes it less of a challenge.

MMO's should remove the level split of content. Sure you can level up through different zones. But make high lvl and low level roam on the same locations much more. Leveling zones will always be dead after a while. Making thousands of hours of content nearly a waste.

One of the things I really liked with Aion was how high lvl world bosses was roaming some of the low lvl zones. You could see high level players killing rare mobs. Making a low level player really interested into watching it all. One other thing was the timed portals from the enemy faction. Making pvp hunting parties really fun. That was maybe the best thing with Aion.

Currently I only play Wildstar. It is really fun. But it bugs me that the only place high lvl and low level players interact is in the capital city. There is no pointing being any place else after hitting level cap. All that insanely beautiful landscape is wasted.

 

[Wagram]

I just let Yoshida destroy my house, I played a bit of 3.1 but couldn't really justify paying the sub. Not enough content and the repetition is too apparent.

I think I'll go back to FFXI later this year. Now that the updates are done I want to check the story of the 2 expansions I missed.

I logged in to sell my house and FC. Apparently that may or may not be against TOS since even the mods don't know. Management over there is all over at this moment in time.

 

[bounchfx]

I think the issue is that mmo's have just gotten so used to the model of having both a subscription PLUS having new content be mainly reserved for "expansions" (which you in-turn have to pay for).


MMO's after Everquest came out largely adopted this route and built the business around it.


Whereas you had games like say, Asheron's Call, where they had monthly updates (for free) that could include new game content , the world constantly felt ever evolving and changing.

Part of the issue is the focus on "Raids" as end game content. I mean come on, mmo's have been around a while and this focus makes ZERO sense.

For one, the vast majority of the playerbase does not even FINISH raids. You can google up some records from many mmo's, from DAOC to WoW and see the % of players that do raids and finish them.


It's a vocal minority that do them and to cater the ENTIRE end-game toward this goal in an mmo is just both absurd and terrible from a business perspective. You end up with the ole "carrot on a stick" routine, people finish raid, game feels "completed" so you grind gear on the raid, then wait for the next expansion.

More mmo's need to find ways to have emergent gameplay that doesn't depend on raids or similar PVE focused end-games that provide the same experience over and over.

Look at other games for example, mp gameas that have live communities for years and years even with 0 new "content" added to the games, why do people keep playing them, why do they enjoy them?

Ultima Online survived for years with ZERO, let me repeat that, ZERO quests, not a single freaking npc with a "!" or "?" over their heads waiting to give you a quest to go out and kill a harmless woodland creature....over.....and over.....and over.

More mmo's need to start diverging and having new structures and gameplay that isn't the same as the tired theme-park/gear focused mmo like WoW and others built upon their house of cards.

great post man.

while I loved raiding as a player, it was definitely something to look forward to but not the 'be all end all' of the experience. once it started being the definite goal in itself that people just grinded towards and finished within weeks, there's no feasible way a developer could ever really keep up with the hardcore players. and like you're saying, catering to such a small percent of players, nevertheless ones that could never truly be satisfied, is a fools errand

I wish more future MMOs (there will be more.. just need some kind of new experience done well for everyone to copy again) would focus more on the social aspects than simply raids and loot

 

[Azzurri]

It is not a bad idea to do that. But I feel that it doesn't work challenge wise. Scaling content means mechanics will take a dive. High level content should introduce new mechanics that challenge a player gradually. Making scaling content mostly only works towards health and damage. It might work for a while, but the challenge and novelty will wear off eventually.

Most MMO's have a mentor system. That works scaling wise for the same thing. Although high lvl gear makes it less of a challenge.

MMO's should remove the level split of content. Sure you can level up through different zones. But make high lvl and low level roam on the same locations much more. Leveling zones will always be dead after a while. Making thousands of hours of content nearly a waste.

One of the things I really liked with Aion was how high lvl world bosses was roaming some of the low lvl zones. You could see high level players killing rare mobs. Making a low level player really interested into watching it all. One other thing was the timed portals from the enemy faction. Making pvp hunting parties really fun. That was maybe the best thing with Aion.

Currently I only play Wildstar. It is really fun. But it bugs me that the only place high lvl and low level players interact is in the capital city. There is no pointing being any place else after hitting level cap. All that insanely beautiful landscape is wasted.

This is why I hate these LFG tools, it literally take you out of the world. There is no point to the world they created when you can press 'l' or some other key and BOOM you're ported right to the dungeon. It ruins exploration and the "liveliness' of the world, ughhh

 

[lazygecko]

I also vehemently dislike how MMOs largely became synonymous with raids. That kind of outlook seemed to solidify some time after WoW started growing exponentially. Before that, it was just regarded as one of the many things you could choose to do, rather than basically dedicate your entire time online to.

At some point Blizzard started talking about statistics they had gathered and how they had noticed that so few players finished high end raid content, much less even experienced the hardest ones. To me it seems like this was the start of a gigantic misconception as they seemed to take for granted that raids are the entire point of the game, and they should do whatever they can to make raids more accessible and take measures to essentially herd the players directly into raid content. They never even considered that perhaps a sizable portion of their userbase weren't even interested in that to begin with. I know I wasn't.

 

[tci]

This is why I hate these LFG tools, it literally take you out of the world. There is no point to the world they created when you can press 'l' or some other key and BOOM you're ported right to the dungeon. It ruins exploration and the "liveliness' of the world, ughhh

It is terrible. That is why I didn't bother more with WoW. It is massive and a really brilliant MMO. But standing inside my garrison and doing everything is idiotic. For WS I at least enjoy the challenges and mechanics. I can't say the same for WoW.

 

[hotpants2k]

There have also been rumors that there are some serious hierarchy/company culture problems internally at Blizzard which heavily impacts the rate of their content output.

Like?

 

[TheYanger]

great post man.

while I loved raiding as a player, it was definitely something to look forward to but not the 'be all end all' of the experience. once it started being the definite goal in itself that people just grinded towards and finished within weeks, there's no feasible way a developer could ever really keep up with the hardcore players. and like you're saying, catering to such a small percent of players, nevertheless ones that could never truly be satisfied, is a fools errand

I wish more future MMOs (there will be more.. just need some kind of new experience done well for everyone to copy again) would focus more on the social aspects than simply raids and loot

I don't think many focus on loot at all, I think PLAYERS focus on loot. Raids ARE the social aspect for most raiders. I would say that probably 80% of my closest friends are people I've met because of raiding in various games, and almost everyone I talk to on a daily basis are people I met raiding.

 

[hotpants2k]

Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, Lost Ark Online, Lineage Eternal, The Repopulation. Those are just off the top of my head.

These don't follow the Theme Park Model.

Dude, very glad ppl like you are still around who know what MMOs were like before Blizzard indoctrinated current players in their fetch, raid, repeat style of developing

A major issue is that games that have great gameplay aren't eye catching to the new normal MMO players. It'd be difficult to scoop up capital when you say "We DON'T want it to be like Blizzards game". They don't know better

 

[Azzurri]

It is terrible. That is why I didn't bother more with WoW. It is massive and a really brilliant MMO. But standing inside my garrison and doing everything is idiotic. For WS I at least enjoy the challenges and mechanics. I can't say the same for WoW.

The new Drop for WS is suppose to actually get you into the world.

Dude, very glad ppl like you are still around who know what MMO's were like before Blizzard indoctrinated current players in their fetch, raid, repeat style of developing

A major issue is that games that have great gameplay aren't eye catching to the new normal MMO players. It'd be difficult to scoop up capital when you say "We DON'T want it to be like Blizzards game". They don't know better

Yea, I'm the old guard, started playing in 1997 with UO. My favorite MMO is SWG and wish there was something like that. I hate how MMO's have turned out, but at least there is a glimmer of hope since newer MMO's in development don't seem to be following the theme park model.

 

[Stiler]

I also think that the internet itself helped ruined mmo's.

Regarding the last few comments.

MMO's used to feel like you were taking a step into a new world. I will never forgot the early days of UO/EQ/AC, going into those games in the late 90's when you started things felt so new, you got into the worlds and you were completely and utterly lost. You found your feet, you learned things, you explored the world and never knew what was around the corner.

Most of them also promoted social interaction (promoted it, not forced it). You actually (gasp) talked to people! You made friends (or enemies), people were generally quite helpful.

Then along came mini-maps w/radars, quest markers, guides, mods, auction houses, and also the /all chat.

In modern times you login to an mmo and that sense is just gone. The exploration? Gone, the social interaction? Gone. You can largely play an mmo and never have to figure out things, ask other players to help, just run through it without having any interaction with a single other person.

I wish mmo's would go back to the world-building style, make it so that there's no radar/map and have the game built so that modding tools can't get that kind of information to display (basically cheating imo) as well as have some sort of "Randomness" to things so that you can't just pull up a wiki and know exactly everything about all the quests and locations.

I also wish more mmo's had location based chat. You talk to people near you, no world-talking chat channels. This not only makes the world feel "larger" but also drives people to setup their own meeting areas and other things naturally. Just like the bank in UO or the tunnel in EQ that served as a market.

Then I have to wonder, maybe some of us have just outgrown mmo's and it's a bygone era and if there ever was a game like this we might see that only a few of us actually want it and the market sadly isn't there.

Hope I'm wrong about the last part though.

 

[Xamtheking]

Did someone say MMOs with content droughts?
Never fear, your old pal Runescape is here!
Much like a nerd in high school, RS never really gets talked about but still ends up going on to do great things.
It's been around in one form or another for 15 years(!) longer than WoW, even.
Runescape has just been getting more content every month, for sakes.
Is good MMO

 

[TheYanger]

Dude, very glad ppl like you are still around who know what MMOs were like before Blizzard indoctrinated current players in their fetch, raid, repeat style of developing

A major issue is that games that have great gameplay aren't eye catching to the new normal MMO players. It'd be difficult to scoop up capital when you say "We DON'T want it to be like Blizzards game". They don't know better

Indoctrinated, ok now.
WoW was a LIGHT YEAR ahead of prior games, it pulled in all of the casuals, and now casuals bitch if they don't get access to everything. It's because everyone COPIES wow that every game is like this, cause they're chasing that money, but don't act like wow came out, was worse than DAoC and EQ, and we got brainwashed into playing it. It was and is a better game, but its success made other publishers too crippled with greed to do anything different.

 

[bounchfx]

I don't think many focus on loot at all, I think PLAYERS focus on loot. Raids ARE the social aspect for most raiders. I would say that probably 80% of my closest friends are people I've met because of raiding in various games, and almost everyone I talk to on a daily basis are people I met raiding.

of course raids are the social aspect for most raiders, but I'm curious how many of the total player base of an average MMO is dedicated hardcore raiders.

what I'm also getting at is, there shouldnt be the whole 'mmo content drought' in the sense that the games should have a lot more compelling things past raiding and getting better gear. if they did, we would hear a lot less whining from the hxc crowd about how the games dont have content. mmos seem to have tons of content, but the problem is people blow through them insanely fast. there needs to be compelling things to do that stretch a much, much longer span of time.

but again, we get a lot of the most vocal people from the minority most likely. I really don't know all the stats about who plays what parts, but what I can see is that whatever content most companies are offering up clearly isn't leaving people satisfied for longer than a short while (at least the vocal ones)

yeah i donno breh. I'm just brainshitting.

I also think that the internet itself helped ruined mmo's.

Regarding the last few comments.

MMO's used to feel like you were taking a step into a new world. I will never forgot the early days of UO/EQ/AC, going into those games in the late 90's when you started things felt so new, you got into the worlds and you were completely and utterly lost. You found your feet, you learned things, you explored the world and never knew what was around the corner.

Most of them also promoted social interaction (promoted it, not forced it). You actually (gasp) talked to people! You made friends (or enemies), people were generally quite helpful.

Then along came mini-maps w/radars, quest markers, guides, mods, auction houses, and also the /all chat.

In modern times you login to an mmo and that sense is just gone. The exploration? Gone, the social interaction? Gone. You can largely play an mmo and never have to figure out things, ask other players to help, just run through it without having any interaction with a single other person.

I wish mmo's would go back to the world-building style, make it so that there's no radar/map and have the game built so that modding tools can't get that kind of information to display (basically cheating imo) as well as have some sort of "Randomness" to things so that you can't just pull up a wiki and know exactly everything about all the quests and locations.

I also wish more mmo's had location based chat. You talk to people near you, no world-talking chat channels. This not only makes the world feel "larger" but also drives people to setup their own meeting areas and other things naturally. Just like the bank in UO or the tunnel in EQ that served as a market.

Then I have to wonder, maybe some of us have just outgrown mmo's and it's a bygone era and if there ever was a game like this we might see that only a few of us actually want it and the market sadly isn't there.

Hope I'm wrong about the last part though.

more great points. I really do feel the same about how the internet has affected it. There's no wonder anymore. I mean, for EQ we had Allakhazam, but it was hardly more than looking up item stats and maybe spawn times. Now, everything is just handed to you in game. Where do I go? Who do I talk to? - why even bother now? there is no wonder. in EQ you had to actually like, explore, and ask questions to finish quests. now you just press next and go to the yellow dots.

but as you said, maybe it was just a culmination of right place/right time, and I could never really play such a game again.

location based chat is also a good idea.

fuck I miss EQ

 

[Hyunashi]

Guild Wars 2 had two week updates for nearly the whole life of the game (at least one per month) until around the start of 2015, when "Living Story Season 2" ended in January (iirc). Then the Expansion, Heart of Thorns, was announced early in the year with a big blowout at Pax East, and while little patches and events floated here and there, all content release was held back for the expansion in October. Since the expansion release, there's been one Raid wing added shortly after, and the game is seemingly now in another drought. They are working on another expansion so I am not sure there's any reason to expect things to change, except supposedly the living story is coming back in some fashion in March. It's not sure what form it will take. The last season was 8 updates with two pauses, so not eight straight.

So it had a steady stream of content releases until going to an expansion model where it seems like it's staying for now.

No. It hasnt. I would say less that its life.

There IS a current content drought in GW2. The expansion DID have lacking content. GW2 has been ridiculously slow on the update front because they constantly want to establish 'SYSTEMS' which should have been there from launch or shortly after. When we do get content, its hardly ever compelling or significant. GW2 is great for one thing. Temporary content.

I wonder how long it will be till we get to explore Elona or Cantha. 10 years?

 

[Htown]

the secret is you don't actually need all that content if you set up robust systems for player interaction, both in combat and non-combat roles, that actually have an impact on something.

The problem is that those things aren't as easy to build that initial player base with. You need the content to bring them in, but you need enough to do so that your players can keep playing even if you don't release anything for six months or a year. A slow gear grind doesn't count.

 

[Azzurri]

the secret is you don't actually need all that content if you set up robust systems for player interaction, both in combat and non-combat roles, that actually have an impact on something.

The problem is that those things aren't as easy to build that initial player base with. You need the content to bring them in, but you need enough to do so that your players can keep playing even if you don't release anything for six months or a year. A slow gear grind doesn't count.

Star Wars Galaxies

I was a musician and that's all I did was buff people with music and talk to people in the Cantina. That's the type of stuff we need in MMO's

 

[lazygecko]

Like?

I can't remember specifics, but I remember reading allegations about people in the WoW team sitting in grandfathered job positions which would usually have been rotated out at this point, and basically anything created or changed for the game has to be evaluated and approved by them, at their own leisure and pace.

 

[yanipheonu]

Until we get some truly crazy procedural shit or a truly massive dev team on of these games, the best course of actions seems to just drop the game during droughts. They can only do so much it seems.

If WOW2 happens though, if they got a crazy huge team doing constant content updates? That could be big.

 

[Azzurri]

Indoctrinated, ok now.
WoW was a LIGHT YEAR ahead of prior games, it pulled in all of the casuals, and now casuals bitch if they don't get access to everything. It's because everyone COPIES wow that every game is like this, cause they're chasing that money, but don't act like wow came out, was worse than DAoC and EQ, and we got brainwashed into playing it. It was and is a better game, but its success made other publishers too crippled with greed to do anything different.

Vanilla WoW was great. You actually interacted with people and used the world because of NO LFG tools. I remember running to Molten Core and Blackrock Mountain and having to PvP my way through the raid, it was so much fun.

 

[lazygecko]

Vanilla WoW was great. You actually interacted with people and used the world because of NO LFG tools. I remember running to Molten Core and Blackrock Mountain and having to PvP my way through the raid, it was so much fun.

The lack of systemized matchmaking simply worked in vanilla WoW since the game was at the peak of its growth and constantly had a big influx of new players or leveling alts. Everything in the world was designed with the purpose of facilitating social encounters and interactions. You could always count on there being a group forming to tackle those Blackrock Orc group quests in Redridge, or for a low level instance like Uldaman. It was via these situations that I met new people and forged new relationships, and that's also where my fondest memories of the game comes from. The non-instanced "pre-dungeon" design philosophy was also great in conjunction with this. I remember having a blast waging guerilla warfare against Horde parties in the entry to Wailing Caverns with my Alliance paladin.

As long as these areas were populated with players, which the growth period ensured, this kind of design worked. I think the problem with the hollow empty world would have inevitably happened regardless as the playerbase over time will consolidate around max level.

 

[Austriacus]

Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, Lost Ark Online, Lineage Eternal, The Repopulation. Those are just off the top of my head.

These don't follow the Theme Park Model.

Kickstarter games and korean top down rpgs. The future of MMOs is not looking good.

You got the right idea tho, pvp open sandbox games are the way to go

PVE themepark players will never be satisfied.

When are we getting an EVE equivalent with good combat? (star citizen doesnt count)

 

[Azzurri]

Kickstarter games and korean top down rpgs. The future of MMOs is not looking good.

You got the right idea tho, pvp open sandbox games are the way to go

PVE themepark players will never be satisfied.

Lol, Yea, but when the only MMO's being created by Western Devs are all kickstarted and the only AAA or AA MMO's are created by Korean devs it's a tough time for MMOs.

I have to give it to Korea, at least they're trying to make decent MMO's

On a side Note The Repopulation going with the UE4 has made my interest peak again. The game was so janky and ugly on the Hero Engine, I'm so happy they're using UE4 even if it delays the game a year or so.

 

[Sölf]

I've always viewed this as an inherent design flaw. The way they treat the majority of all the content they made as these disposable stepping stones simply confounds me. Whenever people bring up the argument that other MMOs have the odds stacked against them because WoW has such a metric shitton of legacy content making up its world, they seem to forget that merely a fraction of this stuff is going to have any real relevance to the playerbase.

It doesn't help that Blizzard were making things even worse by actively herding the playerbase to whatever the latest raid tier was. They've been trying to improve this, but at a molasses pace as usual. I think the Timewalking feature they implemented in WoD could significantly mitgate this if they keep expanding on the kind of content it covers. Especially by incorporating old raids as well.

Yeah, this is definitly something. It's also one of the reasons why I am pretty hyped for Legion, because Blizzard implements some things which could give the game longevity. The scaling dungeons, for example. Stuff like Wildstars Housing is similar, as you can do so much with it. You still have to somehow get the parts, but with their Housing system you can just do so much and it will always stay relevant. And stuff that always stays relevant is just missing in many games. Just give me the ability to build my own dungeons already, even if it's only simple, it would add quite a bunch of content.

The only thing I could really see which could counter the content drought would be t allow players to somehow build their own content. But what it still be a themepark MMO then? Give me the abilities of the Housing system from Wildstar, add to that scaleable mobs and bosses which I could aquire from various locations around the world, the same for skills and effects which I could give these mobs and I could build a dungeon which other players can play. I could see this working in a themepark MMO.

 

[Sophia]

Yeah, this is definitly something. It's also one of the reasons why I am pretty hyped for Legion, because Blizzard implements some things which could give the game longevity. The scaling dungeons, for example. Stuff like Wildstars Housing is similar, as you can do so much with it. You still have to somehow get the parts, but with their Housing system you can just do so much and it will always stay relevant. And stuff that always stays relevant is just missing in many games. Just give me the ability to build my own dungeons already, even if it's only simple, it would add quite a bunch of content.

The only thing I could really see which could counter the content drought would be t allow players to somehow build their own content. But what it still be a themepark MMO then? Give me the abilities of the Housing system from Wildstar, add to that scaleable mobs and bosses which I could aquire from various locations around the world, the same for skills and effects which I could give these mobs and I could build a dungeon which other players can play. I could see this working in a themepark MMO.

I really hope that the level scaling feature they're implementing for Legion is eventually applied game wide. It's something they desperately needed all the way back in Cataclysm. I just rejoined WoW, and Timewalking dungeons are already among one of the best things in the game. I was able to party with a friend and her level 100 guildmates, despite neither being leveled up nor having the gear.

 

[Quicknock]

See, this is something I think B&S pretty well excels at. The use of dailies to encourage players to replay content, and the focus on making sure that content is as polished and entertaining to as many people as they can possibly make it, really helps it feel less repetitive and dire than other themepark MMORPGs I've played.

That being said, yeah - this is how themepark design fails. That's why so many devs gun for the PvP angle, where they only have to supply the tools (re: characters, mechanics, and associated builds) and the stages and let the players go at it. Much more replayability, much more bang-for-the-buck in content development.

Warframe is an intriguing example of a PvE game that somewhat avoids the drought angle with randomly generated levels, frequent small injections of new stuff, and constant, constant revision of old and less-entertaining game content. It's the kind of consistent iteration I'd LOVE to see in way more games. B&S also falls into this, I suppose, as they've notably revamped several game systems over the years (including multiple total class overhauls). I think that's a route that more devs could take to help give their game a longer tail. Focus on just polishing everything as much as you possibly can, and that keeps players coming back just to check out the changes (and if your changes actually work and improve the game, hopefully it keeps them there).

 

[Shamdeo]

FFXIV is in this, too. I'm not an end game player, so my research into this may not be 100% accurate, but from what I have gathered - since the launch of Heavensward in June 2015, there has been a single "actual content patch" in the 8 months elapsed since then, with another larger one coming... Soon™? I see a lot of people complaining about a lack of proper content to do, but it doesn't seem awful.

Final Fantasy XIV has had a major content patch about every 3.5-4 months with the sole exception being Patch 3.1 which took about 5.5 months, which Yoshida attributed to a small break the team took in the summer after expansion launch.

Patch 3.2 is out on February 23, which will be around the typical 3.5-4 months, and the team has already planned to hit that schedule with the rest of the 3.x series.

Nothing longer than that, so...

 

[TheYanger]

Vanilla WoW was great. You actually interacted with people and used the world because of NO LFG tools. I remember running to Molten Core and Blackrock Mountain and having to PvP my way through the raid, it was so much fun.

And yet when games do that now people bitch because the game isn't respecting their time as a player, catch -22. That's my point, the playerbase did this to themselves by not embracing anything that wasn't maximum convenience.

For what it's worth, I get it too, As much as I nostalgically yearn for some of the inconveniences of the past I ALSO know that they felt inconvenient as fuck at the time and still would at some point. It's hard to turn that dial backwards though.

 

[-tetsuo-]

I am just dead tired of themenpark MMOs. They get boring so fast, even before I reach the cap. I preordered BDO because I absolutely love thriving economic systems in games and that one looks to take that to a new and interesting place. It also has amazing graphics and combat. Doesn't hurt.

 

[vilmer_]

And yet when games do that now people bitch because the game isn't respecting their time as a player, catch -22. That's my point, the playerbase did this to themselves by not embracing anything that wasn't maximum convenience.

For what it's worth, I get it too, As much as I nostalgically yearn for some of the inconveniences of the past I ALSO know that they felt inconvenient as fuck at the time and still would at some point. It's hard to turn that dial backwards though.

Casuals win again.

 

[Azzurri]

And yet when games do that now people bitch because the game isn't respecting their time as a player, catch -22. That's my point, the playerbase did this to themselves by not embracing anything that wasn't maximum convenience.

For what it's worth, I get it too, As much as I nostalgically yearn for some of the inconveniences of the past I ALSO know that they felt inconvenient as fuck at the time and still would at some point. It's hard to turn that dial backwards though.

Oh I agree, it's the just the mentality of the current player base of MMO's. I'm kinda looking forward to Brad McQuaid's new MMO Pantheon it seems to harkens back to EQ.

 

[cartographer]

Star Wars Galaxies

I was a musician and that's all I did was buff people with music and talk to people in the Cantina. That's the type of stuff we need in MMO's

And that's great for the small amount of people that enjoy that. Playing music in Cnet or Theed or the Mining Outpost or various player cities was fun. I enjoyed sourcing the best bio mats I could and selling off my doctor buffs, or surveying for the newest copper spawn for my harvesters.

But ultimately that's not enough for a mainstream MMO anymore. It's great for a niche one for sure, but people want their content treadmills now. The market is much bigger and very different now. Those are great systems to have, but for a big budget game it just isn't enough. It wasn't really even enough for SWG and that was over a decade ago.

 

[TheYanger]

Oh I agree, it's the just the mentality of the current player base of MMO's. I'm kinda looking forward to Brad McQuaid's new MMO Pantheon it seems to harkens back to EQ.

HOOO BOY. You should read the thread on rerolled about Pantheon. It's very long. I was posting in the thread alot when it first went on kickstarter on gaf too, but regardless of anything else, I'm just not convinced that kind of game can be what we want it to be anymore. Wildstar had the conveniences we want but was challenging and with long legs, but people all dumped that game in droves. It's not 'modern' MMO audiences, it's MMO audiences in general. Wow felt so fucking innovative after EQ and DAoC it hurt, those systems were all what we wanted the entire time.

 

[Azzurri]

And that's great for the small amount of people that enjoy that. Playing music in Cnet or Theed or the Mining Outpost or various player cities was fun. I enjoyed sourcing the best bio mats I could and selling off my doctor buffs, or surveying for the newest copper spawn for my harvesters.

But ultimately that's not enough for a mainstream MMO anymore. It's great for a niche one for sure, but people want their content treadmills now. The market is much bigger and very different now. Those are great systems to have, but for a big budget game it just isn't enough. It wasn't really even enough for SWG and that was over a decade ago.

Most MMO's that release now are niche anyways, nothing will ever touch WoW sub numbers, unless WoW2 releases, so having these systems aren't gonna hurt them.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

From where I'm sitting as an avid but more casual FF14 player, it makes me wonder what the player population really looks like. Is it a tiny, but vocal, minority that's blitzing the content of a new patch in the first week and then declaring that there's nothing to do? I know in my case I'm still working through content that other players finished months ago. There's all kinds of stuff in the game I feel like I've barely scratched the surface of. I'm also pacing myself, having social experiences, enjoying the story and lore, and generally not treating the whole experience into a speedrun... Am I the exception?

 

[tiggerkiddo]

In regards to XIV, I know 3.1 came out later than normal because the team took a vacation after the launch of Heavensward so eh, they needed it. Heavensward has done some good things but they could do a better job of making content last without doing really grindy stuff like the relic. I've just alleviated it by not treating the game as the sole game I play. It helps combat content droughts, I still log in daily but I don't always play for very long unless my FC is doing something fun.