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[platocplx]

I envy anyone who thinks this is a good idea - because it means they didn't have to grow up alongside a severely disabled relative.

At best it's an incredibly stressful burden, at worse it's like living with a waking nightmare which I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Its an extreme burden, and in many cases its inhumane imo. Some people say its selfish to abort, I would really counter how could you allow yourself to have your child not have a great quality of life out of the womb for many of the genetic disorders that could occur.

Just today heard of a woman grieving over their child who was born with half a heart and didnt survive surgery. Its absolutely insane to want some one to come to term and know that child has a low chance to even see their 1st birthday.

and you know what its not for them to decide whats best for a parent to do. Let parents decide that.

 

[yLEFTy]

This (and any other abortion thread/debate) comes down to when people think that "life" begins. If someone believes that life begins at conception, can you fault them for trying to stop murder of a human life? It is not religious at that point (though most religious people hold this view). This is about sanctity of life. I'm not looking for a fight because you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours, but thought I'd give the mindset of the prolife stance. We don't hate women, we just want to protect innocent life that for whatever reason wasn't given a chance. It is a massive disruption and burden to care for the severely handicapped. I have a close friend with a disability and friends with disabled children. They are still people and I don't think we have the right to decide wether their life is worth living. Anyway that my 2 cents.

 

[univariate]

It's too bad Indiana wasn't aborted from the Union

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I'm really curious what this part means

Sounds like he isn't pro-choice

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Wait, people support abortions for suspected/confirmed deformities? Wtf that is absolutely awful and beyond messed up.

"Taking care of Down syndrome kids is so hard, I know so many people whose lives are miserable and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies" that is so selfish and pathetic

down syndrome is not simply a deformity.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

I don't support this "pick and choose" type of mentality that is becoming prevalent these days. If you get pregnant and you find out late in the pregnancy that the baby has deformities/abnormalities, I believe that you should deliver the baby unless it puts the mother's life at risk.

Maybe I went a little too far by saying it is selfish, but it is just not right to me.

Unless you're the woman carrying the child, you should have absolutely no say in what she does to her body.

 

[Siegcram]

This (and any other abortion thread/debate) comes down to when people think that "life" begins. If someone believes that life begins at conception, can you fault them for trying to stop murder of a human life? It is not religious at that point (though most religious people hold this view). This is about sanctity of life. I'm not looking for a fight because you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours, but thought I'd give the mindset of the prolife stance. We don't hate women, we just want to protect innocent life that for whatever reason wasn't given a chance. It is a massive disruption and burden to care for the severely handicapped. I have a close friend with a disability and friends with disabled children. They are still people and I don't think we have the right to decide wether their life is worth living. Anyway that my 2 cents.

You're not "pro life". That's not a position.
What you are is anti-choice for any and all women from a position with no scientific backing.

 

[Dice//]

The compassion is...admirable I guess, but man this is so stupid.

Posting this nugget:

 

[Littlefang]

Wait I know the article says defects like Down syndrome, but would this bill also apply to abortions done because of a fetus with something basically fatal like sirenomelia?

 

[injurai]

Well fuck Indiana then.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

This (and any other abortion thread/debate) comes down to when people think that "life" begins. If someone believes that life begins at conception, can you fault them for trying to stop murder of a human life? It is not religious at that point (though most religious people hold this view). This is about sanctity of life. I'm not looking for a fight because you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours, but thought I'd give the mindset of the prolife stance. We don't hate women, we just want to protect innocent life that for whatever reason wasn't given a chance. It is a massive disruption and burden to care for the severely handicapped. I have a close friend with a disability and friends with disabled children. They are still people and I don't think we have the right to decide wether their life is worth living. Anyway that my 2 cents.

"Life" can begin as a horny thought in a bar for all I care. Its not anyone elses choice but the parents and most importantly, the mother.

 

[yLEFTy]

"Life" can begin as a horny thought in a bar for all I care. Its not anyone elses choice but the parents and most importantly, the mother.

Like I said no one here is going to change anyone's mind..you've heard all the arguments I will come up with and I've head all yours. In my view the choice to murder is wrong. If a pregnant woman gets murdered the killer gets two counts brought against him. Why count the kid as alive in one case and just some cells in another

 

[Trigonometrize.]

"Life" can begin as a horny thought in a bar for all I care. Its not anyone elses choice but the parents and most importantly, the mother.

I wouldn't say that's the strongest argument. I'm assuming you believe a mother can't take the life of her child after it's been born, and that's because you believe life begins at birth.

On one hand, I think "life begins at conception" is asinine, but he's right when he says the crux of the argument is where you believe life begins.

 

[yLEFTy]

I wouldn't say that's the strongest argument. I'm assuming you believe a mother can't take the life of her child after it's been born, and that's because you believe life begins at birth.

On one hand, I think "life begins at conception" is asinine, but he's right when he says the crux of the argument is where you believe life begins.

This

 

[aeolist]

I'm not looking for a fight because you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours, but thought I'd give the mindset of the prolife stance. We don't hate women, we just want to make their lives materially more difficult and force them into lifestyle changes that they didn't choose even though ever piece of evidence indicates that unplanned and unwanted pregnancies heavily correlate with lower standards of living and life outcomes for both children and parents

ftfy

 

[Apathy]

Wait, people support abortions for suspected/confirmed deformities? Wtf that is absolutely awful and beyond messed up.

"Taking care of Down syndrome kids is so hard, I know so many people whose lives are miserable and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies" that is so selfish and pathetic

So you'd rather a person be born with a disability for the rest of their life regardless of the burdon it put on their family? A disability is for life and many of them are not painless or do not make the individual unaware that they have a disability.

If a low income mother knows that they can't take care of a child with disabilities, one that will take extra resources she doesn't have and that the government won't help with, and she doesn't want to bring that child into that forever is selfish? You gotta be mutters.

 

[SMattera]

This (and any other abortion thread/debate) comes down to when people think that "life" begins. If someone believes that life begins at conception, can you fault them for trying to stop murder of a human life? It is not religious at that point (though most religious people hold this view). This is about sanctity of life. I'm not looking for a fight because you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours, but thought I'd give the mindset of the prolife stance. We don't hate women, we just want to protect innocent life that for whatever reason wasn't given a chance. It is a massive disruption and burden to care for the severely handicapped. I have a close friend with a disability and friends with disabled children. They are still people and I don't think we have the right to decide wether their life is worth living. Anyway that my 2 cents.

I don't know how disabled your friends kids are.

But I would strongly encourage you to go adopt a few severely disabled kids of your own, and then get back to me after you've raised them for a decade.

Many of these children would not have survived 50 or 100 years ago. We have the technology to keep them alive now, but we do not have the technology to fix them. Which results in lives that are often immensely brutal, not just for the people living them, but for those around them.

 

[aeolist]

Like I said no one here is going to change anyone's mind..you've heard all the arguments I will come up with and I've head all yours. In my view the choice to murder is wrong. If a pregnant woman gets murdered the killer gets two counts brought against him. Why count the kid as alive in one case and just some cells in another

that's stupid too.

early on a fetus is an unthinking mass of tissue that female bodies abort entirely on their own at incredibly high rates. it's not a fucking person.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

This (and any other abortion thread/debate) comes down to when people think that "life" begins. If someone believes that life begins at conception, can you fault them for trying to stop murder of a human life? It is not religious at that point (though most religious people hold this view). This is about sanctity of life. I'm not looking for a fight because you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours, but thought I'd give the mindset of the prolife stance. We don't hate women, we just want to protect innocent life that for whatever reason wasn't given a chance. It is a massive disruption and burden to care for the severely handicapped. I have a close friend with a disability and friends with disabled children. They are still people and I don't think we have the right to decide wether their life is worth living. Anyway that my 2 cents.

It's not your call. You're not a woman and you will never have to deal with the overall experience or the choice to terminate your child.

 

[yLEFTy]

ftfy

So anyone who may have a tough life should be discarded? I've already got more involved than I planned to and don't want to derail anything. Thanks to all who unterstood what I was trying to get at through text on an internet forum (not always the easiest thing to do).

 

[Apathy]

This (and any other abortion thread/debate) comes down to when people think that "life" begins. If someone believes that life begins at conception, can you fault them for trying to stop murder of a human life? It is not religious at that point (though most religious people hold this view). This is about sanctity of life. I'm not looking for a fight because you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours, but thought I'd give the mindset of the prolife stance. We don't hate women, we just want to protect innocent life that for whatever reason wasn't given a chance. It is a massive disruption and burden to care for the severely handicapped. I have a close friend with a disability and friends with disabled children. They are still people and I don't think we have the right to decide wether their life is worth living. Anyway that my 2 cents.

Again like everyone has said, you only want to control what a woman can do with her body and her life.

So anyone who may have a tough life should be discarded? I've already got more involved than I planned to and don't want to derail anything. Thanks to all who unterstood what I was trying to get at through text on an internet forum (not always the easiest thing to do).

Do you live with a disability since birth? I have a very small physical one by any standard and my life has been harder because of it. I can only imagine how hard it would be to live with a physical or mental durability that was more severe, and how hard it would be for the parents, specially as they got older and knew they child not be there forever for their disabled child.

 

[aeolist]

So anyone who may have a tough life should be discarded? I've already got more involved than I planned to and don't want to derail anything. Thanks to all who unterstood what I was trying to get at through text on an internet forum (not always the easiest thing to do).

no, but allowing women to choose when they get pregnant is the single most important thing we can do to improve their lives and the lives of their children. it's not even close.

 

[Siegcram]

Like I said no one here is going to change anyone's mind..you've heard all the arguments I will come up with and I've head all yours. In my view the choice to murder is wrong. If a pregnant woman gets murdered the killer gets two counts brought against him. Why count the kid as alive in one case and just some cells in another

It's not about it being alive or not, it's about at which point of its development its existence overrides the mother's authority over her own body.

That's why "pro-life" is a fundamental misunderstanding of your own position.

 

[Prologue]

I only agree with the burial. Everything else is over reaching and imposing.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Again like everyone has said, you only want to control what a woman can do with her body and her life.

That's so dumb to interpret his post that way. He clearly cares about the life of the child given his personal stance on where life begins, and controlling the mother's decisions is just an unfortunate side effect. No one wants to say what a mother can and can't do, but no one wants to murder people either. I don't agree with him, but you're reducing his argument to the negatives for no reason at all.

 

[Dice//]

So anyone who may have a tough life should be discarded? I've already got more involved than I planned to and don't want to derail anything. Thanks to all who unterstood what I was trying to get at through text on an internet forum (not always the easiest thing to do).

This is about the caregiver, not the fetus. If the individual parent understands their situation and wish to keep the child then they can, but if that parent feels they would not be adequate caregivers to a child of special needs (hell, normal healthy children can insane enough to look after and still very taxing) than they have a choice and at the very LEAST a choice. Not all States/countries are very accommodating to parents. Abortion is something very few females take lightly, even if they are in a rough state to raise a child, it's not something they easily choose like ordering at a fast food restaurant. It's personal, it's deep, and it hurts regardless.

I admire the sanctity of life that you have, but individual people are not always so strong to commit to long-term daily care required.

 

[aeolist]

I only agree with the burial. Everything else is over reaching and imposing.

forcing burials or cremation of fetal tissue is still an overreach, many women want to donate the tissue to scientific research where it is extremely valuable to future medicinal applications. and they already had the option to bury or cremate if they wanted, now they have no choice.

 

[boiled goose]

I only agree with the burial. Everything else is over reaching and imposing.

Why would we need a burial for an aborted fetus?
Should we have burials for severed arms? tumor biopsies? dust balls?

that's stupid too.

early on a fetus is an unthinking mass of tissue that female bodies abort entirely on their own at incredibly high rates. it's not a fucking person.

Yup! Even if you think it is a person at conception you are not just protecting its life. You are giving it MORE rights than actual thinking humans. Do I have the right to attach to a woman's uterus and suck her nutrients off for my personal development against her consent??? I don't think so.

 

[Siegcram]

That's so dumb to interpret his post that way. He clearly cares about the life of the child given his personal stance on where life begins, and controlling the mother's decisions is just an unfortunate side effect. No one wants to say what a mother can and can't do, but no one wants to murder people either. I don't agree with him, but you're reducing his argument to the negatives for no reason at all.

Well, those "negatives" cripple the rights of approximately half of the population, while his "positives" can be summed up as a moral high ground mastubatory fantasy.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Well, those "negatives" cripple the rights of approximately half of the population, while his "positives" can be summed up as a moral high ground mastubatory fantasy.

And I can't say I disagree with any of that. I still think Apathy's response was treating him unfairly. To insinuate that all he wants is to limit the right's of women is putting words into his mouth.

 

[Apathy]

And I can't say I disagree with any of that. I still think Apathy's response was treating him unfairly. To insinuate that all he wants is to limit the right's of women is putting words into his mouth.

Because it's the same shit Republican politicians use to limit women's rights. They can try to take some mythical moral high ground just to oppress a group of people.

 

[Cat]

This (and any other abortion thread/debate) comes down to when people think that "life" begins. If someone believes that life begins at conception, can you fault them for trying to stop murder of a human life? It is not religious at that point (though most religious people hold this view). This is about sanctity of life. I'm not looking for a fight because you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours, but thought I'd give the mindset of the prolife stance. We don't hate women, we just want to protect innocent life that for whatever reason wasn't given a chance. It is a massive disruption and burden to care for the severely handicapped. I have a close friend with a disability and friends with disabled children. They are still people and I don't think we have the right to decide wether their life is worth living. Anyway that my 2 cents.

Yes, I can fault them because they care nothing for the person who is actually pregnant. Somehow, the fetus counts as life, yet the life of the pregnant person is not important enough to worry about forcing their pregnancy to term.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Because it's the same shit Republican politicians use to limit women's rights. They can try to take some mythical moral high ground just to oppress a group of people.

I put much more faith in a genuine sense of morality in yLEFTy than Republican politicians though, that's for sure. Not that I know the guy or anything, just a guess.

 

[BigDug13]

Human life is precious. As long as it's American. Middle Eastern kids killed by drones? Shit happens. Deporting children from Central America back to their country to face certain death? Oh well, we've gotta protect our borders. Mother needs financial help because she can't really get a job while caring for a child as a single woman? Too bad, should have thought about that before sex. No food stamps or welfare for you. Syrian children fleeing the rubble caused by our destabilization of the region? Sorry, we don't want you here.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

I wouldn't say that's the strongest argument. I'm assuming you believe a mother can't take the life of her child after it's been born, and that's because you believe life begins at birth.

On one hand, I think "life begins at conception" is asinine, but he's right when he says the crux of the argument is where you believe life begins.

Not really. Abortion isn't about killing (or whatever word you want to use) the unborn child, it's about removing the fetus inside the woman carrying it. As it happens, up until a certain point, removing the fetus will lead to "death", and after that point, it can/will lead to a live birth.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that unless you can remove the child alive, that abortion should be completely legal for any reason.

 

[aeolist]

I put much more faith in a genuine sense of morality in yLEFTy than Republican politicians though, that's for sure. Not that I know the guy or anything, just a guess.

when the effect is exactly the same i have a lot of trouble drawing a distinction between them

 

[Siegcram]

And I can't say I disagree with any of that. I still think Apathy's response was treating him unfairly. To insinuate that all he wants is to limit the right's of women is putting words into his mouth.

It may not be all he "wants", but it would be all he'd achieve. So it's not a misrepresentation.
Blinding yourself with your own rhetoric isn't something commendable.

 

[SilentSoldier]

Does this law count for all birth defects? Even fatal anomalies or those where the average life expectancy is less than a year? Not to mention that Downs Syndrome isn't just some developmental delay, there's GI issues, heart issue, lung issues, etc. And I'm pretty sure there's no provision or anything about medical and educational support for these birth defects are there?

Ugh anti-choice laws are the worst, is there a way we can get this to the Supreme Court to put a stop to them, when we have a full court that is.

 

[Dice//]

Human life is precious. As long as it's American. Middle Eastern kids killed by drones? Shit happens. Deporting children from Central America back to their country to face certain death? Oh well, we've gotta protect our borders. Mother needs financial help because she can't really get a job while caring for a child as a single woman? Too bad, should have thought about that before sex. No food stamps or welfare for you. Syrian children fleeing the rubble caused by our destabilization of the region? Sorry, we don't want you here.

Imagine if someone stood up and said that while they were considering this.

 

[Kinyou]

It's an ugly choice to decide that someones live is not worth living, at the same time it's pointless to force that child onto parents who don't want it/can't take care of it.

 

[Stumpokapow]

how is this constitutional?

It's probably not, but if you are looking to ban abortion entirely and you know that it isn't possible to do so, one way you can come closest to achieving your goal is just to pass dozens of little restrictions on abortion or abortion providers and see which stick when the courts eventually rule on them. You win some, you lose some, but you still make abortion rarer and harder to get. Over the last few years the dominant approach has been TRAP laws but I guess there's still room for targeting the procedure itself.

 

[Omegasquash]

It's probably not, but if you are looking to ban abortion entirely and you know that it isn't possible to do so, one way you can come closest to achieving your goal is just to pass dozens of little restrictions on abortion or abortion providers and see which stick when the courts eventually rule on them. You win some, you lose some, but you still make abortion rarer and harder to get. Over the last few years the dominant approach has been TRAP laws but I guess there's still room for targeting the procedure itself.

Nickel and dimeing something out of existence. I believe that Rick Perry outright said that's what they were going to do to PP in Texas.

 

[Apathy]

It's probably not, but if you are looking to ban abortion entirely and you know that it isn't possible to do so, one way you can come closest to achieving your goal is just to pass dozens of little restrictions on abortion or abortion providers and see which stick when the courts eventually rule on them. You win some, you lose some, but you still make abortion rarer and harder to get. Over the last few years the dominant approach has been TRAP laws but I guess there's still room for targeting the procedure itself.

John Oliver had a segment on it a few weeks back

 

[starchild excalibur]

God damnit, Indiana. Every time I prop up your low cost of housing, decent people, and quaint lifestyle you always remind me that the governance sucks when it comes to many things.

Sheesh.

 

[entremet]

So are they gonna pay women and families that have to keep children with severe developmental disabilities.

That's basically someone who will need support for life. It's not like they could hold jobs.

 

[Ogodei]

Opening up another front on row v wade. This one mighty actually work

Why would it? The Casey case was the only one that worked, and that's because it established the "substantial burden" standard for abortion access, which GOP states have been able to twist to hell and back with their TRAP laws (like the one from Texas that recently passed through). This isn't about nibbling around the edges, it's a full assault, and motive for exercising a right does not excuse the right, even if the motive is terrible.

This would be like passing a law against single-issue voters or something. Why people vote is their business, even if it's a bad reason. Why folks terminate pregnancy is their business before viability.

 

[jax]

Yet another reason no never leave the west coast (best coast) and NYC.

Absolutely disgusting. This is America in 2016.

Spoiler

we should secede.

 

[Omegasquash]

Yet another reason no never leave the west coast (best coast) and NYC.

Absolutely disgusting. This is America in 2016.

Spoiler

we should secede.

OK.

 

[impact]

Yet another reason no never leave the west coast (best coast) and NYC.

Absolutely disgusting. This is America in 2016.

Spoiler

we should secede.

yea, known fact everyone on the west coast is really smart.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

Isn't this mostly a symbolic gesture anyway? I haven't read the text of the bill, but the news article states an abortion will be banned "if it is sought because the fetus was diagnosed with a disability or defect such as Down syndrome." The important word here is "because." So as long as the mother is choosing an abortion because of some other reason, any reason at all (but not the race, gender or disability of the fetus), the law won't prevent it.

I don't see how this actually has substantial impact on anything. A woman wanting an abortion in Indiana just has to check the appropriate box when filling out the paperwork now. It's meaningless legislation, meant to appease pro-life constituents in Indiana.