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Jimquisition (April 25, 2016) - Newtendo
- Thread starter L~A
- Start date
xVodevil
Member
Interestingly enough one of the most common complaints about the game aside from the controls is that the game itself is way too derivative, even though the amount of levels in the game that are straight carbon copies are somewhat minimal.
I get the sense that even if this game was adapted to standard controls the game as is would still face a lot of scrutiny for being too close to Star Fox 64 structurally.
SerTapTap
Member
Like I said in the OT, I do think Nintendo got this idea that "hey, let's make Star Fox Zero MORE than "just a rail shooter"." And in doing this, they basically added everything that sucks into the game while taking out some of the best parts. The rail parts are great. The whole game should be like that, plus a couple of All Range Mode bosses.
The gyro controls work extra well in the rail sections...a funny thing about the gamepad is it's actually GREAT when used as a minor value add along traditional controls. But once they try to enforce looking at two screens with one pair of eyes and dual analog plus full 180 degree gyro aiming...it's a mess.
Pikmin 3 and WWHD's gamepad controls are some of the best on the system, and it's IMO, because the games were already designed, then they worked on how to integrate the gamepad. When they work backwards and try to make a game designed around the gamepad, IMO, it usually fails or is at least clumsy. With some exceptions like the standard level designing on the gamepad, gyro aim assist in splatoon (note how it doesn't require you to look at the gamepad!)
It depends what level you're playing. Corneria's phase 1? Controls are fine. Great!
Titania's boss? That was fucking god awful and I can't BELIEVE they shipped it. The controls turn to shit any time the "cinematic" camera kicks in and they're very often bad in All Range Mode.
The gyro controls work extra well in the rail sections...a funny thing about the gamepad is it's actually GREAT when used as a minor value add along traditional controls. But once they try to enforce looking at two screens with one pair of eyes and dual analog plus full 180 degree gyro aiming...it's a mess.
Pikmin 3 and WWHD's gamepad controls are some of the best on the system, and it's IMO, because the games were already designed, then they worked on how to integrate the gamepad. When they work backwards and try to make a game designed around the gamepad, IMO, it usually fails or is at least clumsy. With some exceptions like the standard level designing on the gamepad, gyro aim assist in splatoon (note how it doesn't require you to look at the gamepad!)
It depends what level you're playing. Corneria's phase 1? Controls are fine. Great!
Titania's boss? That was fucking god awful and I can't BELIEVE they shipped it. The controls turn to shit any time the "cinematic" camera kicks in and they're very often bad in All Range Mode.
Kid Icarus controls like a fucking dream.
Another reason I loved Splatoon. I wasn't a fan of the gyro controls, but instead of telling me to fuck off and git gud, the game let me play with double analog controls. I know plenty of people will probably say that I was limiting myself by not using the gyro, but I had fun nonetheless.
Star Fox 64 feels pretty shallow and slow now after Zero. The dogfighting, especially, is light years beyond previous SF games. The vehicle view's lock-on frees up your opponent to be far more agile and aggressive, constantly flying out of your sights. And then when you do have them within range, they can be more evasive because you have motion controls to compensate. It's amazing.
TheDinoman
Member
On the topic of Kid Icarus's controls. I don't really have that big of an issue aiming the reticle and managing the camera.
I'd say the real issue of Uprising's controls is that there aren't enough buttons to be utilized (due to being limited to the L button and the Stylus), so Sakurai had to had to make stuff like melee attacks use the same input as firing. Whether you shoot or melee depends on how close you are to an enemy. There were many times where I wanted to melee dash attack into something only for Pit to do a forward charge shot just because I wasn't exactly in the perimeter of the enemy the game wanted me to be in, and vice versa. This is made a bit worse when some enemies like Komaytos and Shemum Vaces require melee attacks to be taken down.
I still love the game, but whenever I replay it I notice that much more than just simple camera/aiming issues.
I'd say the real issue of Uprising's controls is that there aren't enough buttons to be utilized (due to being limited to the L button and the Stylus), so Sakurai had to had to make stuff like melee attacks use the same input as firing. Whether you shoot or melee depends on how close you are to an enemy. There were many times where I wanted to melee dash attack into something only for Pit to do a forward charge shot just because I wasn't exactly in the perimeter of the enemy the game wanted me to be in, and vice versa. This is made a bit worse when some enemies like Komaytos and Shemum Vaces require melee attacks to be taken down.
I still love the game, but whenever I replay it I notice that much more than just simple camera/aiming issues.
SerTapTap
Member
IR can be pretty bad because of the narrow-ass cone you have to maintain, and sudden switches from not aiming to aiming. Gyro is great though...when...not implemented like Star Fox Zero does it. It's great in WWHD. But trying to operate the LAndmaster while the "cinematic camera" is actively working against me AND I have to twist and turn the gamepad to struggle to target on something is...god awful.
It's also a massive amount of player effort to badly emulate something that Metroid Prime's lockon system already does perfectly. Prime's lockon strafe controls like a dream. Star Fox Zero's "target camera" is a nightmare. The camera actively works against you in most fights, it's ridiculous. It even does it in the aquarosa fight for no reason at all.
Titania's boss didn't give me anywhere near the same amount of trouble as Aquarosa or Mother Strider, honestly.
Neoleo2143
Member
Actually I don't think any level is really derivative and if anything actually builds upon the base of 64. Like Sector Gamma and Sector Z which have similar missions in destroying missiles, but Gamma had way more stuff going on which makes it Much harder. Venom is the only other one that comes close to derivative but the final Star Wolf fight there is soo good and the level is designed to basically give you awesome moments that it's easy to forgive.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
You know you can just say you don't like something without calling someone a fanboy in the process.
There's plenty of games I don't care for but I'm not going to call out those that like it as if they're something wrong with them for doing so.
I might be misremembering, but doesn't the "cinematic" camera mostly only kicks in when you lock-on an ennemi? That's why I rarely lock-on unless I want to use the gamepad view for more precise aiming.
AHA-Lambda
Member
oh man that ending XD
Certain boss fights it happens automatically I think
The levels are pretty much derivative in name only. Corneria in Zero is like three times the length and variety of Corneria in SF64.
Actually, that seems true of levels in general. Each phase could've been its own level in SF64. With the multi-phase levels averaging two or three phases each, it adds up for a much meatier experience.
Actually, that seems true of levels in general. Each phase could've been its own level in SF64. With the multi-phase levels averaging two or three phases each, it adds up for a much meatier experience.
SmartWaffles
Member
In SFZ's defense, the controls work fine for what it wants to be, but I agree with Jim that the "change" is just for the sake of being different and is completely unnecessary. If SFZ was a Wii U launch title it could be seen as a great showcase of the gamepad's capability, but right now? It's the final struggle of Wii U's overall disappointing technical aspect, and the excellently designed game being its sacrifice.
For the Titania fight it does it for...1 or 2 things that the boss does, but it's like...kinda obvious what you need to do then, anyways.
LegendofLex
Member
This is true, but every single beat of the SF64 Corneria stage is captured in the new one.
BassForever
Member
The controls are fine in SF0 and Jim for being the usual open minded guy he is I find disappointing that he's not even open to the people who like the gyro motion controls. If he wants to argue the controls shouldn't be forced fine, but don't slam something thats different when a lot of people are perfectly enjoying them.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
I love Motion Controls and the Wii Remote remains the most comfortable controller I've ever used. Any Wii U game that offers it like 3D World I've used the controller. I'm not against motion controls at all.
But Star Fox's controls are garbage. It's impossible for me to aim and maneuver at the same time because they're on two separate screens. If I aim with the Pad, I crash into ships constantly. If I focus on maneuvering the ship, I can barely hit anything. I gave it 3 missions, but I'm not sure if I'm gonna finish it.
But Star Fox's controls are garbage. It's impossible for me to aim and maneuver at the same time because they're on two separate screens. If I aim with the Pad, I crash into ships constantly. If I focus on maneuvering the ship, I can barely hit anything. I gave it 3 missions, but I'm not sure if I'm gonna finish it.
Orniletter
Banned
If your argument is "It's a great game once you get used to the control scheme", I think you've kind of missed the point on what controls in a game should be(intuitive).
What does that even mean ? Not every game is as bog standard and brain dead as AssCreed and CoD, gameplaywise (or Persona as far as controls go).
There are a lot of action games with rather high execution barriers where you have to learn controls or you naturally get better at playing them because you internalized the, at first, daunting controls.
Every character action game ever made and fighting game for one.
The refusal to learn any new control scheme that deviates from the same 2 templates (Third person action game that plays like Zelda or Assassins Creed, third or first person shooter that plays like Uncharted or CoD) says a lot about how starved for some real variety the current AAA landscape is.
And SF0 works perfectly fine, as did KI: Uprising, Skyward Sword and Spirit Tracks.
But I'm probably just a nintendrone because I'm able to learn something new and adapt, so what do I know .
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
Star Fox Zero's controls are not really an objective thing. Some folks love 'em and some folks hate 'em. Neither party is correct, but you don't have to call out Nintendo fans for "living in a different reality" for not sharing your opinions.
I probably would've gotten Star Fox Zero if it had this option. Splatoon had it and thank god it did. I hated the gyro option in Splatoon.
I'm a multi-plat gamer who was vocally critical of pretty much everything in Zero leading up to its release.
But then I sat down and learned the controls. And they work. They work wonderfully. Do we need to post videos of people who understand the game knocking out bosses like Aquarosa in less than a minute and having a blast doing so?
No one is faking this. The people who love it, love it. They understand how to play it so that the controls/dual screens never bother them. And they firmly believe others can understand it if they keep trying until it clicks.
In the past, I've struggled with things like tank controls in old-school RE, or hadoukens and shoryukens in Street Fighter. But just because it didn't click at the time, doesn't mean it can't click now. I didn't write those things off as "garbage." I saw that other people understood them and truly enjoyed the gameplay they made possible.
It's unfair to assume that people who love the setup in Zero are lying. Please try to keep an open mind!
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
If your argument is "It's a great game once you get used to the control scheme", I think you've kind of missed the point on what controls in a game should be(intuitive).
It took quite a while for me to get used to dual analog aiming the first time I played Halo. Does that mean the controls aren't intuitive?
HandsomeCharles
Member
I agree. It can be quite nice on the Rails sections as you can "fine tune" your aim to a higher degree of accuracy than you would with the standard analogue stick, but the All-Range mode fights can be frustrating to say the least.
I couldn't help but feel in the majority of the All-Range/Boss encounters that the experience would be pretty fun in co-op, where one person could concentrate on movement whilst the other concentrates on shooting, but the amalgamation of the two into a single player's controls is way too awkward.
What I find really strange is that I found the motion controls in Splatoon to be near-on perfect. It was actually the most "in-control" I had felt playing a shooter outside of the PC platform with KB/Mouse, and yet SFZ has just been such a letdown in that department. Such a shame.
TheDinoman
Member
I can't help but feel Paper Mario has gotten hurt by this as well.
Nintendo and Intelligent Systems just simply refuse to make a new PM game in the same vein of PM64 and The Thousand Year Door. It's saddening.
Just watched the episode
Look I love Nintendo as much as the next poster, but they really need to go a few steps back with the obligatory innovation. As Jim said, innovation for the sake of being innovative doesn't do anything. Nobody is going to jump at Nintendo's throat for giving us more of what we got before. I mean, the reason why some fans are asking for a new F-Zero is not because they want some new innovation or a controller that is especially designed for it (just like Miyamotos suggested in that smosh interview), but rather because they fell in love with what they got the last time. But Nintendo doesn't get that message.
The worst thing about it is that this Design process infected their Hardware development teams as we saw with the WiiU. I like the Gamepad since it allows me to play games without my glasses, but it's pretty darn obvious that the Console came first, an then the ideas for games that work with it.
Innovation for Innovations sake.
I really hope that Nintendo goes a few steps back with it. I like to see them try something new, but please, only if those ideas are 100% fleshed out, and not done because there needed to be something new.
Look I love Nintendo as much as the next poster, but they really need to go a few steps back with the obligatory innovation. As Jim said, innovation for the sake of being innovative doesn't do anything. Nobody is going to jump at Nintendo's throat for giving us more of what we got before. I mean, the reason why some fans are asking for a new F-Zero is not because they want some new innovation or a controller that is especially designed for it (just like Miyamotos suggested in that smosh interview), but rather because they fell in love with what they got the last time. But Nintendo doesn't get that message.
The worst thing about it is that this Design process infected their Hardware development teams as we saw with the WiiU. I like the Gamepad since it allows me to play games without my glasses, but it's pretty darn obvious that the Console came first, an then the ideas for games that work with it.
Innovation for Innovations sake.
I really hope that Nintendo goes a few steps back with it. I like to see them try something new, but please, only if those ideas are 100% fleshed out, and not done because there needed to be something new.
If your argument is "It's a great game once you get used to the control scheme", I think you've kind of missed the point on what controls in a game should be(intuitive).
Go give someone who has only played single stick/D-pad games a dual stick game and you'll see how intuitive the controls we've all gotten used to are. The only reason we don't have issues learning how most games released are controlled is because we've all spent years training ourselves how to play them. Any new control scheme will be deemed "unintuitive".
Neoleo2143
Member
I think my only complaint with the controls is the lack of reassignable button layouts (but this is a platinum games issue in general). To be honest, I think that one concession should be fine.
I also greatly dislike the default gyro.
I also greatly dislike the default gyro.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Please no.
You could make an argument for something like wiimote pointer controls, but, the higher difficulties are designed with the fact that you have far more control than dual sticks provide.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Man, of all the reasons to call people fanboys, knowing things like the legit faults that Nintendo have as a company, liking a subjective control scheme just seems weak.
I liked Kid Icarus but I get where critics come from - subjective opinions aren't a binary "IT'S PERFECT" versus "It totally sucks garbage" type thing.
that's how I got my buddy to give the splatoon controls a legit shot. told him we've basically been practicing with analog sticks for 20 years and at the time he had played like 30 minutes of splatoon.
some people just need some perspective, I guess
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
Yes. I still can't play console fps games.
FloweryMarston
Member
I understand what you are saying, and if jim doesn't like star fox, that's okay. I just take issue with him saying that gyro is always bad, when i reality it adds a lot to the games if well implemented. Like i said in zelda aiming in the game is great. I think the biggest problem is if the game doesn't offer you any options. If people don't like it, what can you do. In zelda you can aim with the gyro, but if you want to use the right sticker, even with the gyro. I just don't like the premise to piss on games with gyro or even stylus because it's diffent. both zeldas on ds work pretty well, and i don't understand why he shat on these games.
Candescence
Member
To add onto that, non-gamers often find 'standard' controls absolutely unintuitive and confusing. That's pretty much why the Wii was a massive hit and mobile games are all the rage for casual gaming. If anything, gyro controls are probably far more understandable to non-gamers than dual-analog would be.
Spring-Loaded
Member
He's not entirely wrong, that's for sure.
The controls work, and for most vehicles/situations they provide some legitimately cool/fun experiences. For some vehicles, they are janky and have some questionable input choices/control mapping.
That said, the controls don't do enough to warrant alienating swaths of the potential player base.
The controls work, and for most vehicles/situations they provide some legitimately cool/fun experiences. For some vehicles, they are janky and have some questionable input choices/control mapping.
That said, the controls don't do enough to warrant alienating swaths of the potential player base.
SolidSnakex
Member
The mindset that leads to them doing stuff like this is reflected throughout the rest of the company as well. Nintendo is a company that seems to want to be different for the sake of being different. It doesn't matter if it really works well, just as long a they can say it's different.
KZXcellent
Member
All of this could be avoided if they just gave people an option. Forcing this was a terrible idea.
Zero elevates Star Fox from an OK franchise to a great one.
In SF64 and Assault, it always bothered me how if you missed an enemy because you were focused on dodging, your chance to shoot them was gone as soon as they were to your side or past you offscreen.
In Zero, you can now dodge one way while shooting another, allowing you to shoot down enemies that are directly below you or above you, or directly to your left or right. You can even shoot down enemies that have already flown past you. And it's all thanks to the alternate perspective expanding your field of view, and your ability to aim independent of your flight.
It's not a gimmick. It's a paradigm shift tantamount to Super Mario 64 going 3D. It's amazing once you get it, which for some people happens in the first hour, and for others may take an entire playthrough. But when it clicks, it clicks.
In SF64 and Assault, it always bothered me how if you missed an enemy because you were focused on dodging, your chance to shoot them was gone as soon as they were to your side or past you offscreen.
In Zero, you can now dodge one way while shooting another, allowing you to shoot down enemies that are directly below you or above you, or directly to your left or right. You can even shoot down enemies that have already flown past you. And it's all thanks to the alternate perspective expanding your field of view, and your ability to aim independent of your flight.
It's not a gimmick. It's a paradigm shift tantamount to Super Mario 64 going 3D. It's amazing once you get it, which for some people happens in the first hour, and for others may take an entire playthrough. But when it clicks, it clicks.
DownGrader
Member
I'll just leave it here:
yup.
I do have tons of problem with Nintendo trying to force "innovation" into their games, especially when they don't need it and we haven't seen the series in awhile. But gyro controls on the whole often feel great. I couldn't imagine Splatoon without it.
that's the problem.