Support NeoGAF

[A Link to the Past]

I'm getting real tired of Nintendo letting gimmicks ruin things.

Metroid: Other M (along with everything else) used the Wii Remote only, even though most people who would get Other M probably had a Classic Controller or a Nunchuk.

Twilight Princess used motion control (to mixed response, bordering on positive I'd say), and thus most people who played it had to deal with that. It also delayed the game by years, which was sad.

Skyward Sword is obvious, as is Star Fox Zero since it's the subject of the thread.

Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks ultimately made for a lesser experience for enough people.

Kid Icarus: Uprising I liked a lot, but acknowledge that anyone who didn't like the controls are perfectly within their right to do so.

Donkey Kong Country Returns' motion controls are just the worst.

Diddy Kong Racing DS added the most pointless touch controls to ever grace a Nintendo game.

Perhaps the best gimmick in a Nintendo game has been A Link Between Worlds' rental system, which completely defined and dictated the way pacing is done in the game, and made the game more memorable for it - and for the right reasons, as opposed to remembering how Donkey Kong Country Returns was great, but had a terrible gimmick.

 

[Regiruler]

This serves to me as a reminder that this is the man that gave my favorite game of all time a 5/10.

Thanks for the reminder, Jim!

 

[LegendofLex]

Perhaps the best gimmick in a Nintendo game has been A Link Between Worlds' rental system, which completely defined and dictated the way pacing is done in the game, and made the game more memorable for it

It actually didn't make a goddamn difference that the items were in a shop since you never used them until you got to the dungeon they were needed for anyway.

 

[The Giant]

What the fuck is this whole current year argument pedo bullshit about?

 

[Neiteio]

Sometimes I wish I could see how people are playing a game.

Are you doing hadouken quarter-circles and shoryuken zigzags in Street Fighter, or just mashing buttons? Are you moving smoothly from screen to screen with tank controls in old-school Resident Evil, or are you bumbling into walls and getting turned around? Are you dash-dodging through attacks while aiming with KBM-like precision in Kid Icarus Uprising, or are you galloping awkwardly and overshooting the camera? Are you sliding, diving, rolling, parrying, etc, in RE6, or are you just playing it like a straight cover shooter?

Some games need to be learned. Zero opens up a veritable ocean of new gameplay while increasing the intensity of scenarios and the speed/precision with which you can respond. But you need to learn the game. Individual elements are intuitive, but it's using them in concert that requires some level of mastery.

Like I said, when it clicks, it clicks. I was a doubter before, but this is one experiment that works wonderfully.

 

[bobbychalkers]

Jim is hyperbolic as usual but I do think he has a point. I say this having the controls win me over in the end too. There is a big caveat with that last statement though, the controls clicked for me around 70% of the main story mode. If I were a critic who had to complete games on a deadline along with focusing on writing about other games, taking that long for controls to stick would be a huge negative. No amount of "your doing it wrong and git gud" comments would get me to think otherwise. Not everybody reaches that clicking moment. Initial impressions are a big part of how games are viewed and people are rightfully entitled to not to have a good impression of Star Fox Zero's due to its controls. I'm glad I powered through to the end but I wasn't having fun until I was halfway through the game. In the end, Star Fox could very well be one of my favorite games this year but I fully realize that I had to become good at patting my head and rubbing my stomach to get there.

This is the W101 all over again.

I don't see that as a 1:1 comparison. W101's controls made sense it just has some layered game mechanics to sort through. For that matter, I even think Kid Icarus's controls made sense on paper, it just physically hurts for some people to play it (myself included) due to shitty 3DS ergonomics.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Looking forward to giving this a listen later.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It actually didn't make a goddamn difference that the items were in a shop since you never used them until you got to the dungeon they were needed for anyway.

But the items were consistently used throughout the game, rather than only used in the dungeon. The rental system also allows you to go to whichever dungeon you want first (with only a couple exceptions). To my best recollection, don't most Zelda games not use items on the overworld in any meaningful way either?

What the fuck is this whole current year argument pedo bullshit about?

????

 

[n00bsauce87]

Does it actually work? If you have more than once company that could legitimately claim copyright in one video, you are less likely to get flagged?

 

[James Scott]

Having beat the game I can't see how anyone can consider the controls trash unless they really didn't want to try and learn them.
After all the criticism I expected a massive learning curve and not to have it down by the end of the first level

 

[K' Dash]

it's okay to be wrong once in a while, Jim is human after all.

 

[kadotsu]

What the fuck is this whole current year argument pedo bullshit about?

AFAIK Star Fox Zero doesn't use a pedometer.

 

[Kintaro]

Also Nintendo should know more now that people do not like to be out of their comfort zone. A lot of people are enjoying video games because they have full control and they enjoy the feeling of being rewarded. Failure is not accepted by many (no more game over in video games) and a lot of mobile games are even focused on reward only with no challenge at all. That's also why so few people take the time to find challenge or difficulties in very accessible games by trying to be better at it... but this is another topic (a big one).

We've had like 5 mega successful Souls games and a slew of games based off of their principles. Challenge is still a thing to be enjoyed in gaming.

There are more people who can not play games with dual analog (the "norm") than there are who can by the way. By a gigantic margin. It's why the Wii took off. Shame Nintendo dropped that ball. I wonder where we would be if they kept that momentum.

 

[brinstar]

I haven't had the chance to try SFZ yet and probably won't til I'm at least finished with one NG cycle of Dark Souls III, but if this is anything like W101 and KI:U before it, I'll probably end up being fine.

With that said though, Nintendo really needs to play ball next gen, with this kind of stuff. I have no problems with gyroscope aiming and motion controls in games, but I think they should also provide options for those who hate them, or don't care about 'em. Like Jim was saying, they need to ask themselves if this is actually making a game better or alienating.

Basically, they should be giving as few people as possible a reason to pass up on their games on concept alone.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Having beat the game I can't see how anyone can consider the controls trash unless they really didn't want to try and learn them.
After all the criticism I expected a massive learning curve and not to have it down by the end of the first level

One thing is though, as someone mentioned earlier, Nintendo is no stranger to trying to accommodate as many controller options as possible. So it feels like they didn't put full effort into this one when all you have is something that you may not enjoy.

 

[Village]

I'm with him on this.

Team analog on splatoon, would totally be fine if the nx version doesn't have it

 

[tebunker]

I dont think Jim is arguing that new control schemes or gyro controls in general are shit, just that they arent better than a regularly accepted alternative in most cases, and doubly so when they aren't implemented well. Which he feels here they aren't.

I belive the man loves Splatoon and uses Gyro. See that is a great example of good gyro controls being intuitive and complementary to the game.


If you watch the video the real argument is that Nintendo doesn't need to do these things just cor the sake of doing them. Being new or different for the sake of it is not good. Again Splatoon is the best example as it allows for both input methods. It is infinitely more intuitive and it works. Also, if you end up not liking them yiu can switch to dual stick. Which you cant do with SF.

I think too many folks just saw that he didnt like SFs controls and got bent out of shape without listening to the real points.

 

[Visualante2]

Nintendo gets roasted so hard for rehashing their franchises (Zelda and Mario in particular). It makes sense that they would want to respond to that criticism, but not go all in.

I see what Jim is getting at when he says that Starfox has added nothing, but my take away from a creator's point of view is- second screen gaming is difficult in the living room and needs more care. Perhaps that should be obvious but I think learning from blunders, or avoiding the idea becomes easier when a company like Nintendo gets it so wrong.

 

[LegendofLex]

But the items were consistently used throughout the game, rather than only used in the dungeon.

Name one example of a time when an item from Ravio's shop was required in the overworld apart from to access the specific dungeon it's required for.

The closest thing is the way there's an entire sequence involving the Sand Rod to get to the Desert Temple. In every other case there's just something blocking the door to the dungeons.

The rental system also allows you to go to whichever dungeon you want first (with only a couple exceptions).

Not adding a signposted puzzle for the dungeon's main item at the entrance to each dungeon would have accomplished exactly the same thing, plus the items could have been discovered inside the dungeons like they usually are.

To my best recollection, don't most Zelda games not use items on the overworld in any meaningful way either?

They don't, and they shouldn't. That's why it's so weird that ALBW thought the item rental system was at all important to making the game non-linear.

 

[ciddative]

What the fuck is this whole current year argument pedo bullshit about?

Inb4 edit. Or will you double down on this nonce-sense?

 

[Geg]

I'm with him on this.

Team analog on splatoon, would totally be fine if the nx version doesn't have it

I doubt Nintendo would do that; I remember a poll back in July or August said something like 70% of players used the gyro aiming. If you include only the high rank & competitive players that number is probably closer to 90 or 95%

 

[Chû Totoro]

We've had like 5 mega successful Souls games and a slew of games based off of their principles. Challenge is still a thing to be enjoyed in gaming.

There are more people who can not play games with dual analog (the "norm") than there are who can by the way. By a gigantic margin. It's why the Wii took off. Shame Nintendo dropped that ball. I wonder where we would be if they kept that momentum.

I don't think "mega successful" is the right thing to say here. Sorry but even if successful, Souls games are not games the average gamer would play so it clearly shows my point.

Also every gamer can play with dual analog (now) but not everyone can accept to take the time to learn new controls (remember dual analog controls at the beginning, a lot were saying it's sh*t like motion controls which will become a good control method for VR but was a gimmick for Wii...).

And Nintendo didn't drop the ball, actually they are always trying to find new ways to play so new people could give it a try (if you're keeping the same controls only adding complexity it will prevent some people to even try it) while still trying to give some challenge to more experienced gamers.

 

[Wil348]

I've been hearing a lot of complaints about the control scheme, so maybe that criticism does hold some weight. And to be perfectly honest, I vastly prefer traditional control schemes in Nintendo games (Splatoon for example, I immediately switched to classic controls after trying motion). I personally think that if Nintendo want to innovate, they should be doing it with the actual gameplay in their software, not with controls or hardware. While I think the Wii U gamepad features can be good if used to 'enhance' the game experience (interactive maps, inventories, etc) like in games such as ZombiU or Lego City, ultimately I just prefer traditional gamepads and control schemes. Playing Mario Kart 8 with the pro controller and regular controls feels great, I would have loved it if they patched support for that into Splatoon (even if the super jump was mapped to a pop-up menu, the pro controller is more ergonomic).

 

[Chaos17]

That's kinda ironic because Digital foundry loved the controls, lol
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-hands-on-with-star-fox-zero

 

[SmartWaffles]

Assuming you take out motion control and lock on, these are the remaining functions:

- Shoot
- Bomb
- Tilt left/barrel roll
- Tilt right/barrel roll
- Boost
- Brake

Even assuming you map somersault and u-turn to sticks like they currently are, there are not enough shoulder buttons to accommodate all of these moves without requiring the player to make use of their thumb.

Yeah, like others have said, using the second stick to aim wouldn't work since you need it to boost, barrel roll, brake, etc, and if you're using the right stick to aim, that finger isn't available to use face buttons. Part of the appeal of Zero is the ability to do many things at once that you'd have to do in turn-based fashion before.

Remapping the buttons is a moot point anyways since you still need the second screen's alternate perspective to reach otherwise unreachable enemies — a big part of why Zero is so much more engaging/exhilarating compared to SF64. Subtle tilts of the pad to track enemies is much more intuitive in that second viewpoint.

We are basing on the functions that were designed around the motion controls, for a controller layout without motion controls though, we need to jump out of the picture I feel.

 

[James Scott]

One thing is though, as someone mentioned earlier, Nintendo is no stranger to trying to accommodate as many controller options as possible. So it feels like they didn't put full effort into this one when all you have is something that you may not enjoy.

There is an alternate control scheme, but they likely felt that the game was too designs around motion controls (some of the coolest parts are shooting down at enemies)
I appreciate them trying out new control schemes and sticking with it even if some people might not like it.
It's not like every game they put out is really hard to control anyways.

 

[axisofweevils]

Don't really agree with this one. As Nintendo Treehouse said, "#gitgud"
Everyone I know that's played it say the controls make a lot of sense and enable you to perform actions that traditional controls would make much harder.

 

[SmartWaffles]

I dont think Jim is arguing that new control schemes or gyro controls in general are shit, just that they arent better than a regularly accepted alternative in most cases, and doubly so when they aren't implemented well. Which he feels here they aren't.

I belive the man loves Splatoon and uses Gyro. See that is a great example of good gyro controls being intuitive and complementary to the game.


If you watch the video the real argument is that Nintendo doesn't need to do these things just cor the sake of doing them. Being new or different for the sake of it is not good. Again Splatoon is the best example as it allows for both input methods. It is infinitely more intuitive and it works. Also, if you end up not liking them yiu can switch to dual stick. Which you cant do with SF.

I think too many folks just saw that he didnt like SFs controls and got bent out of shape without listening to the real points.

What's great about Splatoon's motion control is that, it is a bonus benefit on top of the already very functional traditional controls.

 

[ciddative]

That's kinda ironic because Digital foundry loved the controls, lol
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-hands-on-with-star-fox-zero

That's not what irony means

 

[Mechanized]

Great video Jim! I agree completely.

 

[GamingOblivion]

I'll just leave it here:

LOL if you think Star Fox Zero's control scheme is going to become the gold standard you're insane.

But wait, you're not. You just have a shitty drive-by argument of a post that adds nothing to the conversation. You're probably never even going to come back to this thread to respond.

 

[Soul Lab]

i usually agree with him and I do regarding waggle controls. But the controls on SF0 are fine and I'm having a blast because of the controls.
and why does he compare buttons with motion controls and say buttons are more precise??
Compare analog sticks with motion controls. and sry... motion controls win (example Splatoon)

 

[Kilrogg]

LOL if you think Star Fox Zero's control scheme is going to become the gold standard you're insane.

But wait, you're not. You just have a shitty drive-by argument of a post that adds nothing to the conversation. You're probably never even going to come back to this thread to respond.

To be fair, as a KB+M player, that control scheme still sends chills down my spine.

#BringBackWiimoteFPScontrols

 

[DownGrader]

We are basing on the functions that were designed around the motion controls, for a controller layout without motion controls though, we need to jump out of the picture I feel.

How were they designed "around the motion controls"? These are standard Star Fox moves. Or are you suggesting making dual-stick Star Fox with no rolls and boosts? That would be terrible.

LOL if you think Star Fox Zero's control scheme is going to become the gold standard you're insane.

But wait, you're not. You just have a shitty drive-by argument of a post that adds nothing to the conversation. You're probably never even going to come back to this thread to respond.

First of all, I am not. I'm just saying that unfamiliar control scheme doesn't mean bad control scheme.
Secondly, look at the discussion or at least at the post count before making accusations.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

I can't believe they screwed over the controls for an on rails shooter like SFZ. Not only that but the graphics look markedly worse than they could've because of the forced Gamepad implementation. And they don't even give an option to customize the control scheme!

SFZ was made as a justification for the unpopular Gamepad first and a fun kickass game second. And that second part they failed at.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Name one example of a time when an item from Ravio's shop was required in the overworld apart from to access the specific dungeon it's required for.

The closest thing is the way there's an entire sequence involving the Sand Rod to get to the Desert Temple. In every other case there's just something blocking the door to the dungeons.

Not adding a signposted puzzle for the dungeon's main item at the entrance to each dungeon would have accomplished exactly the same thing, plus the items could have been discovered inside the dungeons like they usually are.

They don't, and they shouldn't. That's why it's so weird that ALBW thought the item rental system was at all important to making the game non-linear.

Do you not at all understand ALBW? Yes, they absolutely could put items in the dungeons, and they absolutely could obliterate one of the coolest things about ALBW (nonlinearity). Your scenario has two outcomes:

1. Dungeons must be done in a fixed order, or

2. Dungeons must not use other dungeon items in them

The rental system allows for unprecedented item usage while also allowing you to play the dungeons at your own pace.

 

[Bronetta]

Edit: Snipping out a tasteless comment. Sorry if anyone was offended

 

[phanphare]

LOL if you think Star Fox Zero's control scheme is going to become the gold standard you're insane.

But wait, you're not. You just have a shitty drive-by argument of a post that adds nothing to the conversation. You're probably never even going to come back to this thread to respond.

actually it adds some perspective to this thread in that what is now considered standard was once new and unintuitive

 

[aBarreras]

LOL if you think Star Fox Zero's control scheme is going to become the gold standard you're insane.

But wait, you're not. You just have a shitty drive-by argument of a post that adds nothing to the conversation. You're probably never even going to come back to this thread to respond.

DownGrader is the most engaging users talking about Star Fox Zero

 

[Milly Osworth]

Yep, Nintendo seems obsessed with trying new things, even when they suck.

Im still waiting for the follow up to the Gamecube, without motion crap.

 

[Neiteio]

We are basing on the functions that were designed around the motion controls, for a controller layout without motion controls though, we need to jump out of the picture I feel.

The line of discussion is what traditional scheme (i.e. one screen and just sticks/buttons) would allow you to reach targets directly to your side or that have passed you offscreen, while being able to still do all other functions at the same time.

The answer: It's impossible without the two viewpoints and motion controls. If you were to relocate the boost/brake/somersault and smart bombs to face buttons and switch aiming to the right stick, you'd have to take your thumb off the stick to reach the buttons.

And without a second screen, you can't track enemies below/above you or that have flown offscreen on the vehicle view. Right there you'd have to cut the hit count of each level in half, and resign yourself to making choices between dodging and attacking. But with Zero's setup you can do both, moving in one direction while maintaining your line of fire in another.

Zero lets you attack and evade enemies at the same time, from all directions in all scenarios — on rails, all-range, etc. The intensity and variety of enemy scenarios is dialed up accordingly. Like I said earlier, SF64 feels shallow and dull now that Zero has clicked.

Since I was one of the biggest skeptics before the game came out, I feel like I owe this game an apology. It's not a gimmick. It's a forward-thinking paradigm shift.

 

[Kilrogg]

Motion controls must be harder for fat people

"if I catch a ban?" There's no "if" about it, son.

Buh-bye.

[EDIT] Sneakily edited: rest assured, you "might" not catch a ban. You absolutely will. I'll eat my duck hat if not.

 

[Nightbird]

Motion controls must be harder for fat people

Really? That's the best comment you could come up with?

 

[Vyse24]

I can't comment on the controls of the game as I've yet to play it, but I do agree that gameplay shouldn't take a backseat to innovation just so you can say the game is innovated.

 

[captain_skyhawk]

I think the real question is how are people going to feel a few years from now looking back on the game.

Looking back at skyward sword I can say all the motion controls ended up being entirely forgettable and really added nothing to the experience of my perception of the experience in the long term. I have a feeling many people will look back on this game and wonder why it wasnt just a standard starfox game.

 

[Menitta]

I think the best use of the DS Stylus was Pokemon Ranger. The game was designed around it and it was a mechanic that worked.

The motion controls in SS aren't the main focus of the game and could easily be controlled by a regular controller and have the same if not better experience.

 

[Pro from Dover]

I had a harder time adjusting to the down-is-up plane control.
I'm confident in my motion control ability, so, good stuff.
I wish though that GUARD had the motion control aiming too.

 

[Vampirolol]

Yeah well, he's wrong. I too hate most of motion controlled games but SF0 is one of the few that completely justifies them with a game. It's really a git gud case, even though I have nothing against people saying "I don't like it". Not that I hate the guy, but he always seemed like the kind of man that wants to give enoguh credit to every part.

 

[Empyrean Heaven]

Exactly what I have been saying about Nintendo for the last 12 fucking years.

Video of the year, Jim. Shit, Video of the DECADE.

 

[LegendofLex]

We are basing on the functions that were designed around the motion controls, for a controller layout without motion controls though, we need to jump out of the picture I feel.

100% of the things I mentioned were present in Star Fox 64.

Do you not at all understand ALBW? Yes, they absolutely could put items in the dungeons, and they absolutely could obliterate one of the coolest things about ALBW (nonlinearity). Your scenario has two outcomes:

1. Dungeons must be done in a fixed order, or

2. Dungeons must not use other dungeon items in them

The rental system allows for unprecedented item usage while also allowing you to play the dungeons at your own pace.

1) Since the items are each only required for one dungeon already, putting them inside that dungeon instead of in a shop wouldn't make the game any less non-linear.

2) Items being in dungeons instead of shops wouldn't magically mean that dungeons would then have to be designed with puzzles involving other items.

Like I said, literally the only reason why getting the items outside of the dungeons matter in ALBW is because the developers put a specific obstacle outside of each dungeon that requires the specific item to get past it. These obstacles didn't have to be there in the first place; the items could have simply been inside the dungeons instead.

You could get all the way to the entrance of the Tower of Hera in ALBW without the Hammer. You only needed the Hammer to get past the obstacle they placed outside seemingly solely for the sake of forcing the player to buy the Hammer at the shop before going to the dungeon. Why not just put the Hammer inside the dungeon?