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[KingWool]

Zero elevates Star Fox from an OK franchise to a great one.

In SF64 and Assault, it always bothered me how if you missed an enemy because you were focused on dodging, your chance to shoot them was gone as soon as they were to your side or past you offscreen.

In Zero, you can now dodge one way while shooting another, allowing you to shoot down enemies that are directly below you or above you, or directly to your left or right. You can even shoot down enemies that have already flown past you. And it's all thanks to the alternate perspective expanding your field of view, and your ability to aim independent of your flight.

It's not a gimmick. It's a paradigm shift tantamount to Super Mario 64 going 3D. It's amazing once you get it, which for some people happens in the first hour, and for others may take an entire playthrough. But when it clicks, it clicks.

Which could be done by using the Left Stick to maneuver and the Right Stick to control the retinal.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Yes. I still can't play console fps games.

Well then, I apologize for my rudeness. I was merely trying to make a point. :/

 

[Neoleo2143]

I think the opposite argument in splatoon is that the pure Dual Stick controls were obviously an afterthought, they are not good.

 

[Neiteio]

To be clear, there are many cases where a Nintendo experiment fell flat for me. But Zero works. It's a gameplay-expanding idea around which they built and balanced the idea.

I appreciate threads like this because it's a chance to discuss that. Hopefully the fence-sitters will at least rent the game and put it through its paces. Once it clicks, it's amazing.

 

[aBarreras]

I was critical of the controls and dual-screen setup in Zero... before I played it.

But they work brilliantly. How quickly someone takes to them will depend on how their mind is wired, though. There are things I pick up quicker than others, and vice-versa. I struggled with hadoukens in Street Fighter and tank controls in Resident Evil for the longest time, while others picked them up instantly. With Zero, things clicked immediately for me but are clearly taking longer for others.

But the setup works beautifully.

They're able to throw so much at you because the dual-screen setup and motion controls allow you to handle it. This kind of gameplay simply couldn't be achieved through traditional means. It's engaging from all directions, how you can fly one way and shoot another, dodging incoming lasers and force fields on one screen while swatting down enemies and turrets on the other screen — including targets that have long since flown out of view on the main screen.

The expanded spatial awareness afforded by multiple perspectives and the incredible speed and precision of the cockpit view opens up vast new realms of gameplay that is meaningful and fun. It's amazing and shows the great potential the WiiU has. Just a bummer they're only beginning to realize its potential now, but hopefully the NX will have a second screen, too.

Glad to hear your change of heart about SFZero

 

[Candescence]

Go give someone who has only played single stick/D-pad games a dual stick game and you'll see how intuitive the controls we've all gotten used to are. The only reason we don't have issues learning how most games released are controlled is because we've all spent years training ourselves how to play them. Any new control scheme will be deemed "unintuitive".

Also, this. This is why people will inevitably freak out at the proposition of dramatic deviations from the 'standard' dualshock format, because they're so used to what we have now that, well, God forbid that we might actually have to learn a new control scheme even if it might actually be better than the 'standard'. Dual-analog has more than a few problems, some of them the Steam Controller outright fixed, and I will never touch a 'standard' gamepad for PC ever again unless a game has digital input as an optimal control method.

 

[Nocturnowl]

As is often the case I think there's more of a middle ground here which is when the controls work as intended and set pieces come together in a memorable way it's pretty dang cool and I get what Miyamoto was going for, unfortunately not all bits are created equally and even the bits that did it really well had me enduring a pain in the arse learning process (looking at you Andross, initially frustrating as hell but ultimately better than any other appearance from ape face). But you know, with control schemes it's often all or nothing so SF0 is a bit like Skyward Sword 2.0 in terms of reactions basically and it runs into similar pros and cons.

All in all though I would've preferred a more straightforward Starfox, of course with the whole sticking to what works point it sometimes feels like damned if you do and damned if you don't. For instance I'd consider the best Wii U game to be the incredibly gimmick control free and purely gameplay focused Tropical Freeze but that one got a tepid reception from some sites for exactly that, "it doesn't even use the gamepad!, no innovation!" because sometimes being among the best in your genre ain't worth a damn.


That Kate Bush game at the end seems pretty neat, I hope it uses the gamepad to allow the player create music videos of utter madness.

 

[Geg]

To add onto that, non-gamers often find 'standard' controls absolutely unintuitive and confusing. That's pretty much why the Wii was a massive hit and mobile games are all the rage for casual gaming. If anything, gyro controls are probably far more understandable to non-gamers than dual-analog would be.

This is is the case for me as a person who's always been bad at shooters. I doubt I'd still be playing Splatoon now nearly a year after its release if it didn't have gyro aiming.

 

[Lagamorph]

Well, he's spot on about the Star Fox Zero controls. Utterly inexcusable.

Thing is, gyro controls themselves aren't the problem. The gyro aiming in Splatoon was great, it worked. In Star Fox, nope. Nope nope nope.

 

[DownGrader]

Which could be done by using the Left Stick to maneuver and the Right Stick to control the retinal.

And that will ruin out-of-TV-bounds hit scoring and make all-range dogfights as unexciting as they were in pretty much any other Star Fox game.

 

[Neiteio]

Which could be done by using the Left Stick to maneuver and the Right Stick to control the retinal.

Nope, because without the second screen, enemies that have flown offscreen would no longer be reachable. And motion control is far more intuitive with a second screen for obvious reasons.

Also, how will you be boosting/braking if your finger is using the right stick and thus unable to reach buttons?

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Which could be done by using the Left Stick to maneuver and the Right Stick to control the retinal.

But the right stick handles boost, brake, and tilting the arwing (plus the little insta-shield for spinning). Where would those controls go if they were moved from the right stick?

 

[Flopfan]

Let me guess, he played it for a few hours and that was enough to deem it horrible. I guess bitching is his schtick so more power to ya, bronie.

You don't need to finish the game to have an opinion about the controls.

 

[KingBroly]

Which could be done by using the Left Stick to maneuver and the Right Stick to control the retinal.

It wouldn't be as fast if it were like that. I'd rather have IR aiming if you're going to do that.

 

[hughesta]

Sorry Jim, controls work great for me and many others.

 

[InsaneZero]

Yeah, it's annoying that we don't have a new F-Zero because they want to do something "innovative" with a new installment. How about just make a new kick ass F-Zero game?

They did that with GX/AX. The result of that is why they want to do something "innovative".

 

[Regiruler]

I highly disagree with Jim here. Gyro has superior to an analog stick in every game I've played with them, and yes that does go for Star Fox Zero as well.

I've only used the gamepad screen during boss fights. During regular gameplay there's no need to ever use the cockpit view.

I've used the second screen when using lock on mode to track stragglers (it's a blessing for finding the spiders on the tower and similar nonsense).

 

[NotLiquid]

I think the issue I have with the video providing a rather black/white picture of the sentiment is that while to some extent I agree that you don't always need to come up with a brand new foundation to the extent that Nintendo sometimes think is necessary, I certainly don't think that the controls of Star Fox Zero should be used as a lynch pin for this particular argument since it is a really misguided basis.

Maybe this is an entirely personal point but Splatoon was a game that made me ultimately realize how much of a fantastic supplement gyro really is to console control aiming. I don't think I ever want to go back to using an accuracy weapon again without the assistance of a well executed gyro function, and I wish more shooters at least took advantage of this option that controls allow them to accomplish. But when the sentiment of gyro controls is being painted here in such a fashion it makes it seem like a doomsayer's vindication - because Star Fox Zero just happened to have controls that were incredibly divisive that means that we shouldn't mess around with a function anymore and a standard formula to see if the possibility exists for a more immersive experience.

Even though I like Star Fox Zero's controls I attest that they have a large learning curve and are definitely not going to sit well for everyone. They're not as accessible as Splatoon's and the option probably should exist for more regular interactions. Splatoon actually allowed traditional controls - but I'm almost tempted to say that because of people defaulting to the latter the good things about an alternate control scheme was completely ignored. It's like that one A:R review that's been thrown around from the late 90s that was scared of the whole dual analogue control scheme and what it might entail.

 

[LegendofLex]

Which could be done by using the Left Stick to maneuver and the Right Stick to control the retinal.

There literally aren't enough buttons to assign aiming to a right thumb input.

 

[KingdomHeartsFan]

He's 100% on point, Nintendo constantly tries to be innovative just for the sake of being innovative without asking if this new method is actually even better than the norm.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Sorry Jim, controls work great for me and many others.

And there are many others who hate the controls. Opinions and all.

 

[SmartWaffles]

But the right stick handles boost, brake, and tilting the arwing (plus the little insta-shield for spinning). Where would those controls go if they were moved from the right stick?

Some buttons are freed up if motion control is removed, pretty sure you can move functions around, for example how about moving bomb to Y and barrel roll to R? Heck there is even an unused button on the gampad, L is not used for anything if I remember correctly (too lazy to fire up the Wii U to check).

 

[DownGrader]

And there are many others who hate the controls. Opinions and all.

And that's fine! But "This video does not even entertain the possibility that the controls for Star Fox Zero are anything other than total garbage trash" isn't.

 

[Neoleo2143]

To be clear, there are many cases where a Nintendo experiment fell flat for me. But Zero works. It's a gameplay-expanding idea around which they built and balanced the idea.

I appreciate threads like this because it's a chance to discuss that. Hopefully the fence-sitters will at least rent the game and put it through its paces. Once it clicks, it's amazing.

Perhaps once I finish my detailed thoughts on the game, people can see the good in the game. It's gonna take Awhile since I'm aiming for a Matthewmattosis level analysis. But as someone who greatly enjoyed his time with it, do give it a shot, it really does defy a number of norms in really interesting ways.

 

[Trago]

They did that with GX/AX. The result of that is why they want to do something "innovative".

At the expense of fans waiting for nearly two console generations for a new installment. Pretty sure a new HD F-Zero would be enough. Online multiplayer would be a sweet addition.

 

[Neiteio]

And there are many others who hate the controls. Opinions and all.

It's similar to how some people dismiss old-school Resident Evil based on its tank controls, or traditional 2D fighters based on command inputs.

I don't doubt that the naysayers don't enjoy it, but it shouldn't be hard to imagine how someone who grasps the controls can find them enjoyable in the way they expand gameplay.

 

[diablos991]

Shit controls + shit implementation = ruined game that could have easily been a good game.
They should have let us disable all that bullshit and play the game on one screen with a traditional controller.

I really hope NX will save us from Newtendo.

That bit at the end for the incoming ContentID claims is brilliant.

 

[kadotsu]

Completely agree that making innovation a gatekeeper for long awaited franchise returns is toxic. Can't agree on SFZ's controls though. For me, apart from a few nitpicks, it is a good evolution of the rail shooter. I could've made the same video for fighting game controls. Another one may have done the same video about animation priority.

Even more stupid, I can't stand the controls in Isaac but love Gungeon. Controls are highly subjective and even small changes can make/kill them for someone.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Some buttons are freed up if motion control is removed, pretty sure you can move functions around, for example how about moving bomb to Y and barrel roll to R?

How would you fire a bomb if your right thumb is aiming with the right analog stick then? You wouldn't be able to do both functions at once.

 

[BY2K]

This is the W101 all over again.

 

[DownGrader]

Some buttons are freed up if motion control is removed, pretty sure you can move functions around, for example how about moving bomb to Y and barrel roll to R?

And how you are going to evade left while shooting a bomb to the right? And you need two buttons for rolling, not one - it's especially crucial for Walker and Landmaster.

This is the W101 all over again.

More like "how to remap Skyward Sword controls to the Wii U Pro Controller."

 

[Iriscomeback]

It's rare for me to disagree with Jim.

The controls for Star Fox Zero are excellent. Revolutionary/necessary? No...

But they work really well and give you way more control than a standard setup.

 

[Harothewanderer]

Have not played the game but in his video he argues that motion controls or controls wich vary from the standard need to be more efficient than this standard wich I highly disagree. Controls can be as efficient as their respecitve game needs them to be.

 

[MisterShine]

BREAK THESE CHAINS OF LOVE

DON'T GIVE UP

DON'T GIVE UP

Spoiler

I love Erasure.

 

[LegendofLex]

Some buttons are freed up if motion control is removed, pretty sure you can move functions around, for example how about moving bomb to Y and barrel roll to R? Heck there is even an unused button on the gampad, L is not used for anything if I remember correctly (too lazy to fire up the Wii U to check).

Assuming you take out motion control and lock on, these are the remaining functions:

- Shoot
- Bomb
- Tilt left/barrel roll
- Tilt right/barrel roll
- Boost
- Brake

Even assuming you map somersault and u-turn to sticks like they currently are, there are not enough shoulder buttons to accommodate all of these moves without requiring the player to make use of their thumb.

 

[Neiteio]

Yeah, like others have said, using the second stick to aim wouldn't work since you need it to boost, barrel roll, brake, etc, and if you're using the right stick to aim, that finger isn't available to use face buttons. Part of the appeal of Zero is the ability to do many things at once that you'd have to do in turn-based fashion before.

Remapping the buttons is a moot point anyways since you still need the second screen's alternate perspective to reach otherwise unreachable enemies — a big part of why Zero is so much more engaging/exhilarating compared to SF64. Subtle tilts of the pad to track enemies is much more intuitive in that second viewpoint.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

And that's fine! But "This video does not even entertain the possibility that the controls for Star Fox Zero are anything other than total garbage trash" isn't.

Exactly.

I don't have Zero yet so I can't speak from my own experience, but I don't think the problem is people disliking the controls. That's totally fine since games are a subjective experience.

But hyperbolic and black-and-white statements like, "The game's controls are total shit" or "if you like them you're a Nintendrone", that's just... I just don't see that as productive as it could be. There's constructive criticism, and then there's just extreme dislike.

 

[Regiruler]

And how you are going to evade left while shooting a bomb to the right? And you need two buttons for rolling, not one - it's especially crucial for Walker and Landmaster.



More like "how to remap Skyward Sword controls to the Wii U Pro Controller."

It wouldn't actually be terribly difficult to map skyward sword's combat to the pro controller while still being faithful, you would just map the sword to the right stick.

 

[PancakeAlmighty]

I agree with the sentiment about controls, but I actually like Star Fox Zeros controls, but hey different strokes for different folks

 

[DownGrader]

Assuming you take out motion control and lock on, these are the remaining functions:

- Shoot
- Bomb
- Tilt left/barrel roll
- Tilt right/barrel roll
- Boost
- Brake

Even assuming you map somersault and u-turn to sticks like they currently are, there are not enough shoulder buttons to accommodate all of these moves without requiring the player to make use of their thumb.

Don't forget transforming and lock-on charge shot disabling.

It wouldn't actually be terribly difficult to map skyward sword's combat to the pro controller while still being faithful, you would just map the sword to the right stick.

It sure won't be difficult, it's just a tired, constantly recurring theme for discussion about "shitty Nintendo motion controls."

 

[TheJoRu]

I agree with his general sentiment, especially how it relates to how Nintendo conceptualized the Wii U. Don't know if SFZ is such a good example, though, seeing as the response to the controls have been mixed rather than actually bad. There isn't an ounce of consensus here.

 

[Candescence]

But the right stick handles boost, brake, and tilting the arwing (plus the little insta-shield for spinning). Where would those controls go if they were moved from the right stick?

There literally aren't enough buttons to assign aiming to a right thumb input.

And here we have a perfect illustration of some of the problems of the dualshock 'standard'. Sure, you could technically put Arwing tilting on the shoulder buttons and both boost and brake on the face buttons, but then you immediately become unable to aim and do any kind of speed adjustment simultaneously. Some shooters (mainly ones copying Gears of War) not having a jump button isn't just a random design choice, it's a result of being impossible to jump and aim simultaneously with a dual-stick setup, a problem, by the way, that neither M&K and the Steam Controller has.

Zero's gyro scheme lets you do absolutely everything you can do while only touching the sticks and the triggers, and thus completely bypasses the issue of the face buttons, while keeping the face buttons as shortcuts for somersaults and u-turns, it's delightfully elegant.

 

[Shredderi]

Haha I love that copyright ID bait

 

[InsaneZero]

At the expense of fans waiting for nearly two console generations for a new installment. Pretty sure a new HD F-Zero would be enough. Online multiplayer would be a sweet addition.

The reality is that if the existing F-Zero fanbase was sufficient enough to sustain the series, then we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

We're talking about a niche game franchise in a niche game genre. We can't even point to other similar games to prove that F-Zero is viable because they're all dead too.

 

[gelf]

Yes. I still can't play console fps games.

I couldn't play either M+K or dual stick FPS games at first. Most so called intuitive control schemes are fairly complex for a newcomer. When I hear someone say controls are intuitive I usually see it as they mean "it's what I'm used to now and I don't want learn something new". That's not to say you can't have bad controls and I havent played SFO so cant comment on that particular case but I wish people would give alternative control schemes a chance in general.

That said I do agree that Nintendos no sequels without innovation policy is very short sighted. There would be nothing wrong with just putting out a new F-Zero that's just more of the same. It's not like the series and genre has been over saturated.

 

[Trago]

I'm not against Nintendo experimenting, but it's clear that it brings mixed results.

 

[LegendofLex]

Don't forget transforming and lock-on charge shot disabling.

I'd rather forget transforming, though. ;p

 

[BY2K]

Okay what's going on? Posts keep vanishing from this thread.

 

[Chû Totoro]

Will watch it at home. Knowing Jim, sure it'll be fun

Now regarding the controls I can understand that a lot of people don't like them but 1st thing: it's better when you activate gyro control only when shooting and 2nd thing: it's not the biggest flaw in the game imo

For me (and after just trying the game I would say) controls are ok even if don't feel as good and responsive as Splatoon.
I appreciate the tentative to still give some freshness in a franchise that needed to go back to its roots (new controls in everything else old school was the idea if I understood it right) but sadly it's the "back to the roots" part that bothers me. The game doesn't feel as tight as it used to be. Actually the challenge this time is to learn the controls so you can feel that you have full control of your ship but it doesn't really work. For me it's like I'm switching from ship controls to shooting controls again and again and it doesn't feel natural yet so I could focus on doing the perfect session in a level or enjoy a few enemies kills/bonus collecting while doing U-Turn or other simple but satisfying figures.

This said I've played like 2 hours only so it's very short so I could judge a new controlling method and even more so I could judge the challenge and content of the game.

But it's not the OT or the review thread and I wanted to give my impressions on controls since it's the thing that bothers people it seems.

Also Nintendo should know more now that people do not like to be out of their comfort zone. A lot of people are enjoying video games because they have full control and they enjoy the feeling of being rewarded. Failure is not accepted by many (no more game over in video games) and a lot of mobile games are even focused on reward only with no challenge at all. That's also why so few people take the time to find challenge or difficulties in very accessible games by trying to be better at it... but this is another topic (a big one).

 

[R_thanatos]

that's how I got my buddy to give the splatoon controls a legit shot. told him we've basically been practicing with analog sticks for 20 years and at the time he had played like 30 minutes of splatoon.

some people just need some perspective, I guess

Yeah but while playing , you shouldn't feel like you're fighting the game.
In one case you're experiencing something new , and in other case you can't help but wondering : " why did they made it like this , it doesn't make sense".

For me splatoon is in the first case , while starfox is in the second.
At some point , you have to admit , that you shouldn't Be that concerned by the control while playing , if you do then , something must be done with the game

i've played enough fps for exemple to understand that everyone has a different confort zone, that's why fps have inverted controls , mouse sensibility and so on.
heck even nintendo when they innovated with mario kart wii had 4 control schemes!

Yet here , with another massive nintendo franchise , No attempt , AT all has been made to help players that wouldn't have fun with the current system ? Even on that aspect star fox zero controls are a failure