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[zon]

Getting ready to purge the xeno and heretic. The filth must be cleansed.

Best DOW2 quote: Come! Show me what passes for fury among your misbegotten kind!

 

[zoukka]

Getting ready to purge the xeno and heretic. The filth must be cleansed.

Best DOW2 quote: Come! Show me what passes for fury among your misbegotten kind!

My face is my shield!

 

[Draeter]

DoW2 only allows you to kill enemy headquarters in the late game, because you shouldn't be attacking HQ in the first place.


It is the worst strategy game for you because you didn't play it optimally, you didn't understand the Heroes role and you didn't play to the victory condition.
.

These are the lamest excuses you can bring to defend any game, oh but you are not supposed to play it like that , what kind of shitty game mechanic its punishing you for trying to strike your oponent base even if you have full map control and more units?

This is not even about the no building or lack of tech tree in Dow2, Ground control 2 lacked buildings and was much better than this, any match of Dow 2 its a constant dancing around points unless you are camping like an idiot. Ohhhh im putting my heavy bolters in this building, superior tactical thinking

But yes, its our fault for not undestanding "superior" game design thats superior because you know, its just superior and using buildings turns the game into simcity

 

[zoukka]

These are the lamest excuses you can bring to defend any game, oh but you are not supposed to play it like that , what kind of shitty game mechanic its punishing you for trying to strike your oponent base even if you have full map control and more units?

This is not even about the no building or lack of tech tree in Dow2, Ground control 2 lacked buildings and was much better than this, any match of Dow 2 its a constant dancing around points unless you are camping like an idiot. Ohhhh im putting my heavy bolters in this building, superior tactical thinking

But yes, its our fault for not undestanding "superior" game design thats superior because you know, its just superior and using buildings turns the game into simcity

The game teaches you to not attack enemy base in the tutorials and tooltips.

And yes map control in RTS games means "dancing around the points". Points get captured, defended and re-captured. And no you can't just sit inside a building in DoWII since you'll get wiped by one grenade or melee squad when exitting the building.

The same exact rules of combat apply to both DOW games. The only difference is that in one game you don't need a building tree to make the units. In both games the one who controls the map and the points, eventually wins. In DOW2 you just have the added strategy of hero choices, builds and more varied units.

 

[ArjanN]

You're describing Company of Heroes. Dawn of War 2 never had that complexity.

It 100% did.

 

[ironDUKE]

trailer coming in 2017, nice!

 

[zoukka]

These arguments just take me back to DoWII release when all the noobs hated the game when they realised they had to actually leave their base to be able to win.

 

[Number_6]

These are the lamest excuses you can bring to defend any game, oh but you are not supposed to play it like that , what kind of shitty game mechanic its punishing you for trying to strike your oponent base even if you have full map control and more units?

This is not even about the no building or lack of tech tree in Dow2, Ground control 2 lacked buildings and was much better than this, any match of Dow 2 its a constant dancing around points unless you are camping like an idiot. Ohhhh im putting my heavy bolters in this building, superior tactical thinking

But yes, its our fault for not undestanding "superior" game design thats superior because you know, its just superior and using buildings turns the game into simcity

Haven't played much DOWII at all, but I am struck by a thought. What if, sometimes, a place is fortified so that just a few men can defend it from an attacking army? And then, that army's strategy is just to, like, sit there outside and control the area so that the people inside, like, starve or something. I wonder if that's a thing?

 

[derFeef]

You're describing Company of Heroes. Dawn of War 2 never had that complexity.

Huh, it totally did. And it mattered a lot.

 

[Draeter]

The game teaches you to not attack enemy base in the tutorials and tooltips.

And yes map control in RTS games means "dancing around the points". Points get captured, defended and re-captured. And no you can't just sit inside a building in DoWII since you'll get wiped by one grenade or melee squad when exitting the building.

The same exact rules of combat apply to both DOW games. The only difference is that in one game you don't need a building tree to make the units. In both games the one who controls the map and the points, eventually wins. In DOW2 you just have the added strategy of hero choices, builds and more varied units.

And this makes this game mechanic not awful because....
Oh wait, it doesnt

And if by more varied units you mean now you have heavy weapon teams for every faction like in CoH then yes, theres a lot of variety

These arguments just take me back to DoWII release when all the noobs hated the game when they realised they had to actually leave their base to be able to win.

Also if you complain about it you just dont understand it and you are a noob, classy

 

[Stahsky]

And this makes this game mechanic not awful because....
Oh wait, it doesnt

And if by more varied units you mean now you have heavy weapon teams for every faction like in CoH then yes, theres a lot of variety

it really wasn't awful. in fact it was incredibly easy to grasp and i can't really understand how you had such a fit over it.

games with differing mechanics. whoa

 

[DocSeuss]

Huh, it totally did. And it mattered a lot.

I could beat any level in Dawn of War 2 by blobbing. I could not do that in Company of Heroes. It is why I liked Company of Heroes far more, and why I preferred base building/economic focus.

 

[RenegadeXV8]

lol @ the DoWII haters trying to paint the game as less strategic than DoW1. Git gud.

Yeah pretty much.

I highly doubt any of the people that keep complaining DoW2 is "shallow" or whatever were anywhere close to the higher tiers of matchmaking. I mean, if there's no strategy and it's just all blobbing then there's no reason they shouldn't be at the top, right?

Hell, DoW2 + Elite mod actually managed to pull some of my friends away from SC2 completely.

 

[zoukka]

Also if you complain about it you just dont understand it and you are a noob, classy

Dude it's pretty simple. Relic designed a game where you win by getting VP:s. You control VP points. Why are you obsessed with ignoring the whole point of the game and want to bang your head on the opponents base? It's the same thing as in FPS games where you have to capture points, you would ignore this and just try to camp at their spawn?

And if by more varied units you mean now you have heavy weapon teams for every faction like in CoH then yes, theres a lot of variety

No I mean the more varied upgrade trees for units and commanders.

I could beat any level in Dawn of War 2 by blobbing. I could not do that in Company of Heroes. It is why I liked Company of Heroes far more, and why I preferred base building/economic focus.

SP and MP balance are completely different topics doe.

 

[uncleniccius]

I'm excited for this. I loved the original and expansions and preferred the focus on giant battles. Hopefully this will be a nice middle ground.

 

[Draeter]

Dude it's pretty simple. Relic designed a game where you win by getting VP:s. You control VP points. Why are you obsessed with ignoring the whole point of the game and want to bang your head on the opponents base? It's the same thing as in FPS games where you have to capture points, you would ignore this and just try to camp at their spawn?



No I mean the more varied upgrade trees for units and commanders.



SP and MP balance are completely different topics doe.

The whole point of the game its stupid, thats the thing, at a certain point you can control every single point on the map and have more units than your oponent and you wont be able to attack his base because you dont have vehicles to make your units cover and be able to shoot at his turrets. How in the world its that acceptable?

Dont get me wrong, i prefer the campaing mode in Dow2, even if until retribution it was only marines, but the skirmiss mode its a whole different story, i was so dissapointed with it

The upgrade trees for units its almost the same for units on the field being able to choose different weapons and adding a sargean/nob etc, and theres less tech investment on buildings because, theres no tech building at all. And being able to equip different gear to your commander only changes guess what, your commander.

 

[Evolution of Metal]

These are the lamest excuses you can bring to defend any game, oh but you are not supposed to play it like that , what kind of shitty game mechanic its punishing you for trying to strike your oponent base even if you have full map control and more units?

This is not even about the no building or lack of tech tree in Dow2, Ground control 2 lacked buildings and was much better than this, any match of Dow 2 its a constant dancing around points unless you are camping like an idiot. Ohhhh im putting my heavy bolters in this building, superior tactical thinking

It doesn't punish you to strike enemy base with any kind of game penalty. It just has defensive mechanisms that can only be tackled by late game units if you want. Otherwise, the win condition is to capture VPs and defend them.

I guess you want to strike enemy Nexus in LoL too? "WTF are those turrets, that is so lame, why can't I dive this fountain?"

There is a structure and rules of the game (that was explained in the tutorial).

And now you are claiming that base building has nothing to do with the displeasure of DoW2? Are you just looking for any reasons to hate this game because you didn't like it?

The whole point of the game its stupid, thats the thing, at a certain point you can control every single point on the map and have more units than your oponent and you wont be able to attack his base because you dont have vehicles to make your units cover and be able to shoot at his turrets. How in the world its that acceptable?

Because it takes seconds to minutes to win the game after you lock down all VPs. You don't ever need to get even close to his base to win the game. Just wait two minutes if he doesn't quit.

 

[Draeter]

It doesn't punish you to strike enemy base with any kind of game penalty. It just has defensive mechanisms that can only be tackled by late game units if you want. Otherwise, the win condition is to capture VPs and defend them.

I guess you want to strike enemy Nexus in LoL too? "WTF are those turrets, that is so lame, why can't I dive this fountain?"

There is a structure and rules of the game (that was explained in the tutorial).

And now you are claiming that base building has nothing to do with the displeasure of DoW2? Are you just looking for any reasons to hate this game because you didn't like it?

No, it totally works the other way around i "hate" this game, if by hate you mean vastly prefer other strategy games for multiplayer including the first dow and even CoH, because the reasons i claim, i dont make them up because i want to hate it, i fucking bought it to play it, i finished the campaing and then was so fucking dissapointed with the skirmish mode

And yet again the but you are not supposed to do this defense its awful. In a game about map supremacy you are not supposed to go there, because the game felt the need to put turrets on steroids on his base, thats fantastic

You keep comparing it to other genres which doesnt help at all, this is a strategy game, not a Moba




So many people didnt like the second game mostly for the same reasons as i and its because they are noobs and they dont undestand, wow, what a fantastic discussion

And again, i liked the campaing, i have no problem with no buildings or smaller squads, but the multiplayer was terrible, its no surprise later on they put so much focus on last stand mode in Retribution.

 

[zoukka]

The whole point of the game its stupid, thats the thing, at a certain point you can control every single point on the map and have more units than your oponent and you wont be able to attack his base because you dont have vehicles to make your units cover and be able to shoot at his turrets. How in the world its that acceptable?

Dont get me wrong, i prefer the campaing mode in Dow2, even if until retribution it was only marines, but the skirmiss mode its a whole different story, i was so dissapointed with it

The upgrade trees for units its almost the same for units on the field being able to choose different weapons and adding a sargean/nob etc, and theres less tech investment on buildings because, theres no tech building at all. And being able to equip different gear to your commander only changes guess what, your commander.

Yeah so you didn't enjoy the VP game, that's fine but don't call the game stupid or badly designed when in fact what it tries to achieve it does very well. It doesn't try to be a base building game.

And the commander is the most important unit so his/her wargear impacts the game a lot with the unique globals as well.

 

[Nzyme32]

All these complaints about DoW 1 & 2.

I think both DoW 1 and 2 were excellent. I'd love to see a mix of the two in this new one.

 

[Stevey]

Maybe you guys should make a new thread where you can argue which game is better.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

All these complaints about DoW 1 & 2.

I think both DoW 1 and 2 were excellent. I'd love to see a mix of the two in this new one.

I respect the people who prefer Dawn of War 2, all I'm saying is that they should be purged for heresy.

 

[enemy2k]

Fuck yes. Played the shit out of Dawn of War 2.

 

[Dictator93]

My face is my shield!

lolololol

they should be purged for heresy.

Psh....
"I understand more than you could possibly know."

Yeah so you didn't enjoy the VP game, that's fine but don't call the game stupid or badly designed when in fact what it tries to achieve it does very well. It doesn't try to be a base building game.

And the commander is the most important unit so his/her wargear impacts the game a lot with the unique globals as well.

The opening 5 minutes of the game, and how you manage your comm vs. the enemy comm are always so damn exciting in DoW II (except against chaos lord.... fuck that guy).

It is simply amazing how such minute decisions or single unit's and their abilities can make or break entire battles in Dow II. I love that game (it is why I have thousands of hours in it and its expansions). It is always kind of sad that I will never know how many hours I truly have in DoW II since steam started counting after the it came out of beta and retail I think even (and I played a shit ton of the beta).

 

[Trickster]

So what are the odds that the missions in this game will be less repetitive than those of Dawn of War 2? Because while I like the 40k universe. I actually never played DoW 1, and only managed to play through DoW2, 3-4 weeks ago. This even though I've owned the game for years and have tried it on several earlier attempts. However each time I would play for 1-3 hours and just find myself getting tired of the gameplay due to the slow nature of the game, but most importantly because of how repetitive the game felt. Each mission what just "kill a ton of enemies and a boss.Oh and maybe also capture some control towers if you feel like it"

Hopefully this game will look to WC3 and SC2 for mission inspiration.

 

[zoukka]

So what are the odds that the missions in this game will be less repetitive than those of Dawn of War 2? Because while I like the 40k universe. I actually never played DoW 1, and only managed to play through DoW2, 3-4 weeks ago. This even though I've owned the game for years and have tried it on several earlier attempts. However each time I would play for 1-3 hours and just find myself getting tired of the gameplay due to the slow nature of the game, but most importantly because of how repetitive the game felt. Each mission what just "kill a ton of enemies and a boss.Oh and maybe also capture some control towers if you feel like it"

Hopefully this game will look to WC3 and SC2 for mission inspiration.

SP never was the strong point of the series. Just hop on to MP as soon as you can.

 

[Dictator93]

So what are the odds that the missions in this game will be less repetitive than those of Dawn of War 2? Because while I like the 40k universe. I actually never played DoW 1, and only managed to play through DoW2, 3-4 weeks ago. This even though I've owned the game for years and have tried it on several earlier attempts. However each time I would play for 1-3 hours and just find myself getting tired of the gameplay due to the slow nature of the game, but most importantly because of how repetitive the game felt. Each mission what just "kill a ton of enemies and a boss.Oh and maybe also capture some control towers if you feel like it"

Hopefully this game will look to WC3 and SC2 for mission inspiration.

Have you played Chaos Rising? It kind of ditched the whole mission map structure for a more traditional RTS campaign.

SP never was the strong point of the series. Just hop on to MP as soon as you can.

SP in coop is incredibly fun IMO. Great way to get someone into RTS and WH40k.

BTW, who here was actually involved with competetive DoW II? I wonder how many of you I played against and which public replays of them are even available (preferably with me getting stomped in them). I was lictor Alpha for a very long time til I switched to plague champ.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

SP never was the strong point of the series. Just hop on to MP as soon as you can.

Dark Crusade campaign was a lot of fun imo.

Not denying that MP is the main draw but SP is also good.

Now CoH, that's a series where the campaign is mostly a waste of time

 

[zoukka]

I played Elite Mod for a few years competetively. I was very lttp to the game.

 

[twobear]

The whole point of the game its stupid, thats the thing, at a certain point you can control every single point on the map and have more units than your oponent and you wont be able to attack his base because you dont have vehicles to make your units cover and be able to shoot at his turrets. How in the world its that acceptable?

Dont get me wrong, i prefer the campaing mode in Dow2, even if until retribution it was only marines, but the skirmiss mode its a whole different story, i was so dissapointed with it

The upgrade trees for units its almost the same for units on the field being able to choose different weapons and adding a sargean/nob etc, and theres less tech investment on buildings because, theres no tech building at all. And being able to equip different gear to your commander only changes guess what, your commander.

If you're so soundly winning that you control the entire map then you can get to tier 3 (even tier 2) and destroy their HQ relatively easily. I don't really see it as bad design that a player who's on the back foot can stil win the game by outplaying you, winning back map control and capping VPs.

 

[Trickster]

SP never was the strong point of the series. Just hop on to MP as soon as you can.

My interest in the 40k universe and rts games is the universe and lore, coupled with fun varied gameplay. MP would be the exact opposite of what I'm looking for in the game.

 

[LordRaptor]

So what are the odds that the missions in this game will be less repetitive than those of Dawn of War 2? Because while I like the 40k universe. I actually never played DoW 1, and only managed to play through DoW2, 3-4 weeks ago. This even though I've owned the game for years and have tried it on several earlier attempts. However each time I would play for 1-3 hours and just find myself getting tired of the gameplay due to the slow nature of the game, but most importantly because of how repetitive the game felt. Each mission what just "kill a ton of enemies and a boss.Oh and maybe also capture some control towers if you feel like it"

Hopefully this game will look to WC3 and SC2 for mission inspiration.

DoW1 Winter Assault and DoW2 Chaos Rising had the best 'traditional' singleplayer RTS campaigns.

DoW1 Dark Crusade and DoW2 Retribution had the most replayable single player, but it was mechanics based rather than narrative based or unique gameplay hook map based.

I fully appreciate the fact that DoW2 is effectively three different types of games in one, because it let them split resources between making fun singleplayer content (loot whoring is awesome, fuck all y'all haters) fun co-operative content (co-op campaign on super hard is sweet as hell, and Last Stand in a better world is a standard co-op game option in every MOBA released) and balanced competitive ranked mathmaking.

 

[Trickster]

DoW1 Winter Assault and DoW2 Chaos Rising had the best 'traditional' singleplayer RTS campaigns.

DoW1 Dark Crusade and DoW2 Retribution had the most replayable single player, but it was mechanics based rather than narrative based or unique gameplay hook map based.

I fully appreciate the fact that DoW2 is effectively three different types of games in one, because it let them split resources between making fun singleplayer content (loot whoring is awesome, fuck all y'all haters) fun co-operative content (co-op campaign on super hard is sweet as hell, and Last Stand in a better world is a standard co-op game option in every MOBA released) and balanced competitive ranked mathmaking.

Hmm, I actually started Chaos Rising right after DoW2, but stopped because it sorta felt like the same formula after 2-3 missions. But maybe I should give it another go ?

 

[LordRaptor]

Hmm, I actually started Chaos Rising right after DoW2, but stopped because it sorta felt like the same formula after 2-3 missions. But maybe I should give it another go ?

Well, if you fundamentally don't like the gameplay, it doesn't change so much that you might end up loving it, but the quality of the singleplayer is a lot better than it is in vanilla DoW2, and IIRC it does have some maps where it mixes things up.

e: like, im fairly sure it has some space hulk homage missions

 

[noise36]

wow wasnt expecting that! loved the last one.

 

[ISee]

Already posted?

EDIT:
It's obviously already in here. NVM

 

[Bastos]

Read the books from the black library.

You could go on a wiki walk, but you might be better off reading some of the novels. Horus Heresy, Ciaphas Cain, and Gaunt's Ghosts are a pretty great jumping off point for various perspectives on the 'verse.

Horus Heresy is a good start then?

I wanted to read the novels in chronological order, and when I say chronological, I mean something like the genesis of the Warhammer universe, Fantasy or 40K, doesn't matter.

Choose a race/army, like Dark Angels or Necrons, and find their Codex book. There's one for every army. Awesome tomes detailing history, units, rules and special characters.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1908872268/

So if I pick the Space Marines Codex Book I'll find out everything about the Emperor, the creation of the Space Marines, etc?

 

[Tacitus_]

Horus Heresy is a good start then?

I wanted to read the novels in chronological order, and when I say chronological, I mean something like the genesis of the Warhammer universe, Fantasy or 40K, doesn't matter.

Horus Heresy has the first books in the timeline, as they happen during the 31st Millenium.

Not that you really need to start there, all you need to know from the Horus Heresy is that Horus rebelled with half of the Legions, beat the Emperor half dead, Emperor killed him and got interred into the Golden Throne. Cue grim darkness for the next 10 Millenia.

 

[hooijdonk17]

LOL at the people hating on DOW2 just because they don't actually get the game.

 

[TheVoidDragon]

Horus Heresy is a good start then?

I wanted to read the novels in chronological order, and when I say chronological, I mean something like the genesis of the Warhammer universe, Fantasy or 40K, doesn't matter.

So if I pick the Space Marines Codex Book I'll find out everything about the Emperor, the creation of the Space Marines, etc?

The Horus heresy series is really not a good start for someone new to the setting. It's set in the 31st millennium so it's quite a long while before anything else andit's completely different from the usual stuff. It's more intended for people who already have a general idea of how things are.

Unfortunately hat's not what the Codex's are for really. They're mostly for the rules for the tabletop game with some background on that specific faction, although not a huge amount. A codex will explain some of the lore for that race but if you want to find out more you really need to browse the Lexicanum site (Do not use the W40K wiki) or read novels. There is no place to get everything.

You'd be best of getting some more 'standard' novels to get a general idea of the universe first, something like the Gaunt's Ghost series would be a good place to start (it's also about the Imperial Guard rather than Space Marines, which is a good thing)

 

[Enosh]

iirc the "Dark Millennium" part of the 7th edition rulebook has all of the backstory, a timeline, overview of all of the factions, explains all the types of planets etc, so actually probably a pretty good overview of the setting

but the whole rulebook is like 70€ and has 2 more books in it, one for all the game rules and one for just showing off the miniatures, so not sure if worth it

 

[Syraxith]

My face is my shield!

I thought it was My faith is my shield!

LOL at the people hating on DOW2 just because they don't actually get the game.

I personally loved it more than DOW1 - base building micromanagement gets stale after a while. My only complaint was the bosses.

 

[-tetsuo-]

No they dont, theres little to no strategic diversity in a Dow 2 match and no, focusing on the heroes as if this was a moba doesnt add any strategy at all because your guy can now jump instead of having a shield. You are focusing all that shit in one singular unit which makes you extremely predictable.

Also what kind of "strategy" you actually get from Dow 2? You only have one way of getting more units, one and only one, upgrading your base, and the only reason to not try to get it as fast as possible its because you have no way of getting units while upgrading. And the reason its stupid to not try to rank up the base as fast as posible its that you wont be able to even scratch your opponent base without heavy units and cover in the form of vehicles. When you are able to do that, then you are going to spend a long time shooting at the turrets and the base, while your opponent is unable to do shit.

Add to this the constant dancing capturing and recapturing points if you try to fight the AI and its easily one of the worse strategy games for a 1vs1 match I've played

Is this a joke post?

 

[LordRaptor]

Yo, if you want a primer into W40K lore, here's your primer into W40K lore;

Space Marines = Space Nazis. Also, they're all clones. Also, they can't remember how to do technology any more.
Eldar = Space Elves. Also, they're all arrogant perverts. Also, they managed to fuck a chaos god into existence because they couldn't keep it in their pants, so their sous get eaten when they die.
Orks = Space Orcs. Also, they're the comic relief. Also, they're a fungus powered by the power of wishful thinking.
Chaos = Space Marines going through their teenage angst phase. Also, definitely listen to Linkin Park.
Imperial Guard = All the red shirts from star trek got together with phasers set to stun and figured they could help. Also, are irredeemably fucked in any battle scenario you can think of.

Everyone else = not popular enough to worry about for at 3 expansions.

 

[Enosh]

Yo, if you want a primer into W40K lore, here's your primer into W40K lore;

Space Marines = Space Nazis. Also, they're all clones.

no...

 

[-tetsuo-]

Yo, if you want a primer into W40K lore, here's your primer into W40K lore;

Space Marines = Space Nazis. Also, they're all clones. Also, they can't remember how to do technology any more.
Eldar = Space Elves. Also, they're all arrogant perverts. Also, they managed to fuck a chaos god into existence because they couldn't keep it in their pants, so their sous get eaten when they die.
Orks = Space Orcs. Also, they're the comic relief. Also, they're a fungus powered by the power of wishful thinking.
Chaos = Space Marines going through their teenage angst phase. Also, definitely listen to Linkin Park.
Imperial Guard = All the red shirts from star trek got together with phasers set to stun and figured they could help. Also, are irredeemably fucked in any battle scenario you can think of.

Everyone else = not popular enough to worry about for at 3 expansions.

Tyranids are pretty popular breh

 

[Boogdud]

I thought it was My faith is my shield!

(it was)

Yo, if you want a primer into W40K lore, here's your primer into W40K lore;

The hell? What is this, 40k primer from people that have only played blizzard games?

 

[LordRaptor]

no...

I thought the Primarch Geneseed implant thing was a cloning thing, not just a genetic engineering thing?

The hell? What is this, 40k primer from people that have only played blizzard games?

Uh.... no, most of thats canon lore

 

[Toxi]

I thought the Primarch Geneseed implant thing was a cloning thing, not just a genetic engineering thing?

Space Marines are human men given physical augments and geneseed to transform them into super soldiers. They are not clones.

 

[longdi]

I prefer coh1 and coh2 over dow2. Relic made dow2 as some coh-lite, teching and all happens way too fast to have the strategic depth and diversity of coh series.