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[balladofwindfishes]

Nobody ever mentions Mother as being over represented in Smash, despite having barely any sales at all, two characters, two assist trophies, four stages across the series, 12 music remixes across the series, and 2 items.

Not that I'm saying Mother is over represented or anything like that, just pointing out that iFire Emblem's representation in Smash is in question due to the series size, but people look the other way for the Mother series and it's large amount of content, relative to its size.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Nobody ever mentions Mother as being over represented in Smash, despite having barely any sales at all, two characters, two assist trophies, four stages across the series, 12 music remixes across the series, and 2 items.

Not that I'm saying Mother is over represented or anything like that, just pointing out that iFire Emblem's representation in Smash is in question due to the series size, but people look the other way for the Mother series and it's large amount of content, relative to its size.

Well Earthbound/Mother is a little different in terms of the reasons behind the 2 characters. What happened with Mother I think is it has 1 thing going for it, and there was 1 stroke of luck happen for fans.

Thing going for it: Ness is one of the original 12 from Smash64. After Melee, it pretty much became tradition to keep the original 12 in every Smash game.

Stroke of luck: During Melee development, Lucas was meant to replace Ness, but due to time constraints, Sakurai stuck with Ness. By the time Brawl rolled around, Sakurai decided to retain the original 12, but he still wanted to include Lucas because of the newer Mother 3.

So, originally, the Mother/Earthbound was originally going to only have 1 representative throughout Smash, but thanks to Melee/Brawl stuff, we have 2.

 

[Azure Dream]

Nobody ever mentions Mother as being over represented in Smash, despite having barely any sales at all, two characters, two assist trophies, four stages across the series, 12 music remixes across the series, and 2 items.

Not that I'm saying Mother is over represented or anything like that, just pointing out that iFire Emblem's representation in Smash is in question due to the series size, but people look the other way for the Mother series and it's large amount of content, relative to its size.

Ness was supposed to be Lucas from the get-go, but that got pushed aside when Earthbound 64 ran into troubles. Lucas appeared close to Mother 3's actual debut, and it's clear the two are sharing a lot under the hood. Lucas is not a "start from scratch" character, he's very much developed from Ness. He only appeared in Smash 4, as DLC, because he was comparatively easy to do. He didn't even get custom moves, if memory serves correctly.

 

[Poltergust]

Ness was supposed to be Lucas from the get-go, but that got pushed aside when Earthbound 64 ran into troubles. Lucas appeared close to Mother 3's actual debut, and it's clear the two are sharing a lot under the hood. Lucas is not a "start from scratch" character, he's very much developed from Ness. He only appeared in Smash 4, as DLC, because he was comparatively easy to do. He didn't even get custom moves, if memory serves correctly.

None of the DLC characters got custom moves.

 

[Azure Dream]

None of the DLC characters got custom moves.

Right. So he didn't even receive full attention compared to the default characters.

 

[Rapscallion]

12 games, 2 remakes, and #FE is a small series?

I honestly haven't understood the complaints about the FE characters. The only one I really deem unnecessary is Lucina, and I think should have just been a Marth skin. All the other ones are unique and interesting (in Smash For, even Roy was differentiated from Marth much more than Melee and feels different).

Popularity wise, it's definitely not on par with Pokemon/Mario/Zelda.

 

[Boney]

To this day I don't understand why people would prefer having Lucina as an alt costume and lose a character.

Are they that OCD about the CSS?

 

[Poltergust]

We'll miss you, Bayonetta.

Spoiler

Well, at least I will lol.

 

[Draxal]

Nobody ever mentions Mother as being over represented in Smash, despite having barely any sales at all, two characters, two assist trophies, four stages across the series, 12 music remixes across the series, and 2 items.

Not that I'm saying Mother is over represented or anything like that, just pointing out that iFire Emblem's representation in Smash is in question due to the series size, but people look the other way for the Mother series and it's large amount of content, relative to its size.

It's just the explosion in this game, what really got everybody off was when you had 2 out of 7 dlc characters being Fire Emblem characters.

Now Fire Emblem has a cast of roughly ~500 characters give or take, which is only second to Pokemon. Series like Zelda have issues where the secondary cast just doesn't have any of the popularity as the big three in that series do. Obviously, 95% of those fire emblem characters are secondary cast members that will have a fan or two, but having a protag switch in each game is the reason that their smash representation is so large.

 

[Nickle]

I'm more annoyed that we haven't gotten a brand new Zelda character since Melee. Toon Link kind of counts as a new character, but that was still 8 years ago.

 

[Zebei]

To this day I don't understand why people would prefer having Lucina as an alt costume and lose a character.

Are they that OCD about the CSS?

This

same with Doc and Dark Pit. Free stuff is free stuff.

 

[SoulUnison]

Wolf has as much in common with Fox as Ike does with Marth. If you consider one as unique, you must consider the other.

Wolf is way more of a clone to Fox than Ike is to Marth.

Wolf has Fox's entire B Special moveset, with minor changes.
Ike and Marth really only share a counter.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Every time I peruse these threads and see all talk about series deserving more or less characters I am reminded why I stopped following these threads. Especially in a topic about gameplay balancing.

 

[ffdgh]

Wolf is way more of a clone to Fox than Ike is to Marth.

Wolf has Fox's entire B Special moveset, with minor changes.
Ike and Marth really only share a counter.

Any similarity beyond wolf's reflector is a an exaggeration.

Edit: and the lazy landmaster.

 

[Triforce141]

Wolf is way more of a clone to Fox than Ike is to Marth.

Wolf has Fox's entire B Special moveset, with minor changes.
Ike and Marth really only share a counter.

Wolf is similar to Fox and Falco as much as Wario does to Mario and Luigi.

 

[SoulUnison]

Any similarity beyond wolf's reflector is a an exaggeration.

Edit: and the lazy landmaster.

B: Both fire a sidearm projectile. Fox's doesn't stun, Wolf's does. It's basically Falco's.
->B: High speed dash. Fox and Falco go perfectly horizontal. Wolf has a slight upward angle and a sweetspot on the very end of the move.
^B: Omni-Directional charge dash. Fox travels through targets, Wolf drags them with him.
vB: Exactly the same as Fox's.

Wolf has Fox's entire Special Moveset with minor animation and property changes.
That's not an exaggeration. That's his entire situation.

Wolf is similar to Fox and Falco as much as Wario does to Mario and Luigi.

This could be somewhat close to true, if Wario had a projectile, reflector, jump punch or a tornado/windbox move, but he has none of those.
The closest thing he has to a Mario/Luigi move is the Up+B twister punch thing, and that shares more with Bayonetta than it does M or L.
Wario is entirely different from Mario and Luigi. Wolf is a hodgepodge of Fox and Falco.

 

[Shamrock7r]

B: Both fire a sidearm projectile. Fox's doesn't stun, Wolf's does. It's basically Falco's.
->B: High speed dash. Fox and Falco go perfectly horizontal. Wolf has a slight upward angle and a sweetspot on the very end of the move.
^B: Omni-Directional charge dash. Fox travels through targets, Wolf drags them with him.
vB: Exactly the same as Fox's.

Wolf has Fox's entire Special Moveset with minor animation and property changes.
That's not an exaggeration. That's his entire situation.

Lol not even

In addition to the very different special properties, his A attacks are very different. He shares similarities for sure, but he is far from a clone. Do you consider Lucas a clone of Ness?

 

[SoulUnison]

Lol not even

In addition to the very different special properties, his A attacks are very different. He shares similarities for sure, but he is far from a clone. Do you consider Lucas a clone of Ness?

"Very different." They're just slight tweaks to the same moves.
Wolf's Specials are different from Fox's in the same sense and to the same degree that Fox's Custom Specials are different from Fox's Default Specials.

And of course Lucas is a clone of Ness - he follows the same template.
His Specials are Ness's with slight property and visual changes.

B: A slowmoving charge burst.
^B: PK Thunder. Ness does one big hit, Lucas does multiple lesser ones.
->B: PK Fire. Ness traps, Lucas deals instant damage.
vB: PSI Absorb. Almost exactly the same except Lucas doesn't cover behind him and can score a minor electric hit in extremely specific circumstance.

Fox/Falco/Wolf are basically Ryu/Ken/Akuma.
Slight variations on the same basic mold.

 

[Shamrock7r]

"Very different." They're just slight tweaks to the same moves.
Wolf's Specials are different from Fox's in the same sense and to the same degree that Fox's Custom Specials are different from Fox's Default Specials.

And of course Lucas is a clone of Ness - he follows the same template.
His Specials are Ness's with slight property and visual changes.

B: A slowmoving charge burst.
^B: PK Thunder. Ness does one big hit, Lucas does multiple lesser ones.
->B: PK Fire. Ness traps, Lucas deals instant damage.
vB: PSI Absorb. Almost exactly the same except Lucas doesn't cover behind him and can score a minor electric hit in extremely specific circumstance.

Fox/Falco/Wolf are basically Ryu/Ken/Akuma.
Slight variations on the same basic mold.

I think you have a very loose definition of clone, considering the look, animations, and the style of play especially is very different between the characters

 

[Zero-ELEC]

B: Both fire a sidearm projectile. Fox's doesn't stun, Wolf's does. It's basically Falco's.
->B: High speed dash. Fox and Falco go perfectly horizontal. Wolf has a slight upward angle and a sweetspot on the very end of the move.
^B: Omni-Directional charge dash. Fox travels through targets, Wolf drags them with him.
vB: Exactly the same as Fox's.

Wolf has Fox's entire Special Moveset with minor animation and property changes.
That's not an exaggeration. That's his entire situation.



This could be somewhat close to true, if Wario had a projectile, reflector, jump punch or a tornado/windbox move, but he has none of those.
The closest thing he has to a Mario/Luigi move is the Up+B twister punch thing, and that shares more with Bayonetta than it does M or L.
Wario is entirely different from Mario and Luigi. Wolf is a hodgepodge of Fox and Falco.

Wolf has completely different normals and all of his specials have significantly different properties. Calling him a clone is like calling Captain Falcon a clone of Samus. (Heck, N64 Samus and Captain Falcon have more in common than Wolf and Fox.)

 

[Poltergust]

"Very different." They're just slight tweaks to the same moves.

There's absolutely no way you're serious about this. None of Wolf's normals are even remotely similar to Fox's or Falco's. Like, the only one I can think of is his f-throw.

 

[Triforce141]

This could be somewhat close to true, if Wario had a projectile, reflector, jump punch or a tornado/windbox move, but he has none of those.
The closest thing he has to a Mario/Luigi move is the Up+B twister punch thing, and that shares more with Bayonetta than it does M or L.
Wario is entirely different from Mario and Luigi. Wolf is a hodgepodge of Fox and Falco.

• A one-two punch jab
• Lunging hands upward up tilt
• Punch/chop forward smash
• Break dancing down smash
• Headbutting up smash
• An aerial attack that involves them posing with one of their legs sticking out
• Back throw being the "So long, K. Bowser" spin-throw from Mario 64
• A recovery special involving them jumping upward and hitting people in the process

Wario is very different from Mario & Luigi, but still share some styles of attack between the 3, like Fox/Falco/Wolf.

 

[SoulUnison]

There's absolutely no way you're serious about this. None of Wolf's normals are even remotely similar to Fox's or Falco's. Like, the only one I can think of is his f-throw.

People keep bringing up Normals and I keep VERY specifically pointing out I'm talking about their "Special Movesets."
This is like the third time someone's presented an indignant scoff to an argument nobody's trying to make, here.

 

[Masked Man]

False advertising. :/

 

[TheDinoman]

False advertising. :/

It kinda reminds me how the PMDT showed off Meta Knight's sweet new down air in Project M only to scrap it later on, lol.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Lol not even

In addition to the very different special properties, his A attacks are very different. He shares similarities for sure, but he is far from a clone. Do you consider Lucas a clone of Ness?

I actually consider Lucas to be a clone, actually, but not Wolf. Mostly because Lucas just shares too many animations with Ness for me to be comfortable saying he's a fully unique character.

My own personal definition of a clone is kind of a subjective "does this character share significant animations or properties with another character" and Lucas has both, Wolf has neither.

 

[Shamrock7r]

People keep bringing up Normals and I keep VERY specifically pointing out I'm talking about their "Special Movesets."
This is like the third time someone's presented an indignant scoff to an argument nobody's trying to make, here.

I think the point trying to be made is that wolf is a vastly different character from fox, when you take into account the totality of the character. His specials are based around Fox yes, but we are talking about 4 moves out of 20+ moves that are similar in theme but are used very differently. Also, it's a character from a series that doesn't really have individual move information to draw from as its a flying game.

I actually consider Lucas to be a clone, actually, but not Wolf. Mostly because Lucas just shares too many animations with Ness for me to be comfortable saying he's a fully unique character.

My own personal definition of a clone is kind of a subjective "does this character share significant animations or properties with another character" and Lucas has both, Wolf has neither.

Not saying you're wrong, but aside from their fsmash, and maybe pk Thunder, what animations do they share? I'm drawing a blank.

 

[random25]

I actually consider Lucas to be a clone, actually, but not Wolf. Mostly because Lucas just shares too many animations with Ness for me to be comfortable saying he's a fully unique character.

My own personal definition of a clone is kind of a subjective "does this character share significant animations or properties with another character" and Lucas has both, Wolf has neither.

If that's the case, then the current Mario and Luigi are clones of one another too?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

If that's the case, then the current Mario and Luigi are clones of one another too?

Luigi is one of the most cloned semi-clones in the game. I don't know where this idea that he was some crazy unique fighter came from. Like half his animations are ripped right from Mario. Even if their properties are drastically different, I simply cannot look past Luigi's run animation. Falco, Toon Link, Lucas and Ganondorf don't share run animations. Luigi does. This is inexcusable to me, since it's one of the most obvious animations of any character since you'll see it so often. And that's ignoring half his airs and throws and two of his Smash attacks.

Not saying you're wrong, but aside from their fsmash, what animations do they share?

Jump, double jump, dodge, roll, ledge animations, forward smash. Normal characters do not share this many animations. Wolf shares the same number of animations with Fox as Little Mac does with Captain Falcon, for example. Their down tilts are identical in function, with different animations. They have the same weight. Their PK Fires share particles. PK Thunder's differences between the two seem more like semi-cloned than a unique move.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Ness and Lucas are more like Fox and Falco than Mario and Luigi really. Not clones, but semi-clones if even that.

So many things between them are different that honestly I wouldn't even consider them clones outside of the fact they have similarly named special attacks.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Ness and Lucas are more like Fox and Falco than Mario and Luigi really. Not clones, but semi-clones if even that.

So many things between them are different that honestly I wouldn't even consider them clones outside of the fact they have similarly named special attacks.

Yea, Lucas is a notch above the rest, certainly. He has the most unique animations of all the semi-clones. Falco has more unique animations than Luigi as well, which I guess is kind of weird when you think about it.

 

[Poltergust]

People keep bringing up Normals and I keep VERY specifically pointing out I'm talking about their "Special Movesets."
This is like the third time someone's presented an indignant scoff to an argument nobody's trying to make, here.

This is the string of quotes I'm referring to:

In addition to the very different special properties, his A attacks are very different. He shares similarities for sure, but he is far from a clone.

"Very different." They're just slight tweaks to the same moves.

The only time the phrase "very different" was used in Shamrock's post was in reference to Wolf's normals. And yes, they are indeed very different.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Also, my definition of a clone isn't solely in shared animations but what their actual attacks do. Ness and Lucas may share some normal animations but their different smashes, aerials, and even grabs more than differentiate them enough for me.

If you guys wanna talk about clones you should see Melee. Sharing pretty much every animation with just parameter changes, heck some of Roy's hitboxes were directly ported from Marth with no alterations to consider his different animation speed lol.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Jump, double jump, dodge, roll, ledge animations, forward smash. Normal characters do not share this many animations. Wolf shares the same number of animations with Fox as Little Mac does with Captain Falcon, for example. Their down tilts are identical in function, with different animations. They have the same weight. Their PK Fires share particles. PK Thunder's differences between the two seem more like semi-cloned than a unique move.

I mean, again, we just have different definitions of clones I guess. 5 or 6 animations out of 30 or so are the same, and some pk fire particles.You even had to stretch it with that "dtilt similarity" which you can apply to a number of moves to a variety of characters. That doesn't scream clone character to me even though they have some similarities. Ultimately though we are just arguing over semantics, lol. I forget the point of the clone debate already.

 

[Beats]

so, when does this actually happen? Tonight?

False advertising. :/

lol, was thinking the same thing.

 

[Vermillion]

It's quite a leap from me saying that Zero was a prominent and visible member of the Smash community who devoted himself to whining about Bayonetta while, himself, camping on the "other" top-tier/OP/"toxic" characters, and your implication that I was somehow trying to say that Zero has Nintendo's ear and dictates the contents of balance patches, in some way.

Holy strawmen, Batman.

I'm just annoyed because he was one of the loudest voices for this, but he screamed while actively being and having a long history of being a hypocrite. Zero's the kind of guy that mained Meta Knight, ZSS, Diddy King and Shiek. He's like the *poster child* for running to whatever the current OP-character-of-the-week is. Then a character he doesn't "approve" up pops up and he essentially crusades against her. Not evenjust against the character, though - he attacked the players that used her and even just her fans, saying that they were weak players allowing Bayonetta to carry them... While he almost exclusively plays whoever is at the very top of whatever the currently-in-vogue tier list is.

I'm sorry, but Zero, to me, is just a guy who got lucky enough to end up in a fairly meaningless spotlight, but it's all he has going for him so he'll do absolutely anything and jump on any possible bandwagon to keep his "status." He's like the gaming community version of a politician.

So gross that this is what ended up happening because of prominent "community" members like Zero having a temper tantrum.

Also, ZeRo didn't get lucky at all. He's literally the best Sm4sh player in the world.

 

[IntelliHeath]

False advertising. :/

I was thinking about that too but my condolences since I know how excited you were when Bayonetta got confirmed.

 

[Professor Beef]

RIP Bayo

You died for no reason

 

[Pancake Mix]

RIP Bayo

You died for no reason

She deserved the nerfs.

 

[SoulUnison]

This is the string of quotes I'm referring to:

The only time the phrase "very different" was used in Shamrock's post was in reference to Wolf's normals. And yes, they are indeed very different.

Um, the guy you quote uses the term "very different" twice in that sentence, so I don't know where you got "only," and it starts "In addition to the very different special properties," signifying he's talking about Special Attacks, he then *continues* "...his A attacks are very different."

He *himself* pointed out that he was talking about Specials and had to segue the conversation to Normals, so I'm really not sure where you're coming from, here.

 

[105.Will]

So instead of making here weaknesses weaker they just got rid of her strengths. Fun. The nerf was justified but from what I see they just got rid of what made the character interesting. Not defending 50% to death for the record, just don't agree with the nerfs they went with. But I guess we'll see what happens when the patch drops

 

[Shamrock7r]

Um, the guy you quote uses the term "very different" twice in that sentence, so I don't know where you got "only," and it starts "In addition to the very different special properties," signifying he's talking about Special Attacks, he then *continues* "...his A attacks are very different."

He *himself* pointed out that he was talking about Specials and had to segue the conversation to Normals, so I'm really not sure where you're coming from, here.

Who would you say has a more unique moveset compared to Fox, Wolf from Super Smash Bros: Brawl, or Wolf from the Star Fox games (Wii era and back)?

 

[SoulUnison]

Who would you say has a more unique moveset compared to Fox, Wolf from Super Smash Bros: Brawl, or Wolf from the Star Fox games (Wii era and back)?

...What?

That's like asking if Mario 64 Mario could beat up Mario Kart 64 Mario.

I'd say you're moving the goalposts, but they're so gone I'm questioning if they ever existed.

 

[Shamrock7r]

...What?

That's like asking if Mario 64 Mario could beat up Mario Kart 64 Mario.

I'd say you're moving the goalposts, but they're so gone I'm questioning if they ever existed.

Lol, it's mostly a joke question, but you being upset at Wolf being arguably not that different from Fox in Smash Bros, I would argue that Smash Bros. Brawl is the game where the 2 characters have the most differences!

And I don't think any goalposts have been moved since you've never, to my satisfaction, proved that Wolf is an outright clone of Fox in Smash. I just feel that you have a lack of understanding of the nuances of the game.

 

[jnWake]

So, after watching the videos and stuff it seems Bayonetta was hurt pretty bad. Although it was deserved I hope it doesn't completely erase her from tourney play. The idea behind her design was good, just unbalanced. I'd have fixed it by changing start-up and end-lag so that her combos are easier to avoid instead of making all her attacks escapable though...

I guess we'll have to see how the meta evolves. I can already see everyone returning to Sheik though haha.

 

[random25]

Luigi is one of the most cloned semi-clones in the game. I don't know where this idea that he was some crazy unique fighter came from. Like half his animations are ripped right from Mario. Even if their properties are drastically different, I simply cannot look past Luigi's run animation. Falco, Toon Link, Lucas and Ganondorf don't share run animations. Luigi does. This is inexcusable to me, since it's one of the most obvious animations of any character since you'll see it so often. And that's ignoring half his airs and throws and two of his Smash attacks.

In Mario games, Mario and Luigi are supposed to do the same things so it's justified. He isn't crazy unique, nobody is saying that, but he's unique still as Smash evolved when compared to Mario. A dash attack of his own, a different smash attack, a different aerial, a special unique to him, and a taunt with a meteor effect. And that's beside his other goofy stuff not present in Mario. And being a semi-clone does not make him a clone though, which is basically reserved to only 3 characters in Smash 4.

 

[DR2K]

Is Bayonetta even viable anymore? I don't think I've ever seen a character get this gutted in just a patch.

 

[Masked Man]

I was thinking about that too but my condolences since I know how excited you were when Bayonetta got confirmed.

Thanks. I love her character—not her tier placement—so I'm still going to main her. It's just sad to see her entire character concept be undone because the most vocal part of the community didn't like her/refused to deal with her.

RIP Bayo

You died for no reason

She died for our sins, but will be resurrected and restored to her former Umbran glory in Smash for NX. #believe

 

[PK Gaming]

Is Bayonetta even viable anymore? I don't think I've ever seen a character get this gutted in just a patch.

Definitely

People are forgetting that she still has a bunch of incredibly solid tools

The panicking is premature and Bayonetta is still a good character. You can straight up quote me on this

 

[ZSaberLink]

Definitely

People are forgetting that she still has a bunch of incredibly solid tools

The panicking is premature and Bayonetta is still a good character. You can straight up quote me on this

Agreed. A non-optimally played Bayo was doing really well against much more optimally played characters pre-patch. Now post-patch, her mains are actually going to figure her out and see what combos are there. Whether or not she'll be top tier again is hard to tell (probably not to be honest), but I'm sure she'll be alright.

oh gosh i thought it was just up-b.




the last sheik and meta knight nerfs happened after sakurai witnessed a high-level match and saw how absurdly good their biggest kill combos were. this is most likely just another case of "oh gosh we never intended for any combos in smash 4 to be that brutal."

I don't think people here are still not fully understanding the changes imo (which is hard when the patch isn't really out, but still). While if you predict the Bayonetta is going to Up-B you from the ground, you can technically SDI. However, while it's definitely easier than before (where before even if you knew it was coming you were still generally hosed), it's now possible to escape if you predict it. However, it's still a frame 4 move and can easily catch you offguard. The main one that now is easier to DI/SDI is the second UpB, as that's the one you generally just know is coming. That prevents the kills off the top.

Secondly, Up-B Afterburner kick still works the same if I remember correctly. So now the standard combo might be Up-B into ABK Upwards, maybe back, and then you escape. Now add DI to the equation, and you probably can still get 20-30 damage on a good combo, but it's nowhere near her old combo.

UAir still kills the same as before, although you can already SDI that (probably easier now) as ESAM explained a while back.

She still has an amazing recovery, has Witch Time for a possible stock or combo starter, and a projectile with her neutral B. Plus, I don't she was very well explored, so I'm sure that if 9B and co. don't just drop her, some new tech will come to light. Generally people didn't know how to play Bayo optimally, yet were still doing well with much lesser knowledge.