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[sir_bumble_bee]

If you were a fan of RPGs in the 90s, chances are you've played at least one game with an ATB system. The Squaresoft of old pioneered this system in Final Fantasy IV and continued it's use through the next whole decade in the series, along with additional titles like Chrono Trigger and Xenogears. When I first experienced these games, the battle systems created a sense of speed, finesse, and urgency for unmatched in any turn-based combat I've played.

Fast-forward to 2016, as millions are anticipating Final Fantasy XV, the first game in the main-line series to use a completely action-based battle system inspired by Kingdom Hearts and western RPGs. However, there is a vocal group in the fanbase of the series that believe the Square of today view any type of menu-based combat as dated, and wish to see the series come back to it's roots and bring back the ATB system of old... and I used to be one of them.

However, after going through my library the past few months and replaying old jrpg classics like those listed before, I've realized I do not care for the battle systems at all. In my opinion, these battle systems heavily relied on high agility, powerful attacks, offensive spells, and the occasional "heal all" item/spell, with little room for strategic planning and character buffs/debuffs outside a boss fight or two. They created an illusion of fast battles when in reality they simply fixed your movement speed. On top of it all, it become flat out frustrating to pick the right move under the pressure of being "Supernova-ed" by a tough boss. It was then when I came to the conclusion the more traditional turn-based battle systems like those found in Final Fantasy X, Xenosaga III, the Shin Megami Tensei series, and the Dragon Quest series are more engaging and satisfying.

Am I in the minority? Is the ATB system a viable gameplay mechanic? Is there something I'm just not understanding? What are your thoughts GAF?

Side note: Yes, I know Square Enix still use it in heavily modified ways as seen in Final Fantasy XII, the Final Fantasy XIII series, and Type-0. However, these incarnations share only the most basic functions of the games in the past (the gauge itself in most cases) and could almost be considered entirely different beasts.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

I don't like it to be honest. FFX handled it the best imo.

 

[antitrop]

I don't like it to be honest. FFX handled it the best imo.

I like 10's system for boss fights, but it makes trash mob battles really tedious.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Well, playing through Chrono Trigger DS again I kind of agree it hasn't aged that well.

But that being said I really don't care for the direction they took combat in FFXV either. Stuff like SMTIV and XCOM 2 do modern turn based combat right. I really hope FFVII remake has better combat than FFXV but Square has fallen off hard the last 10 years or so I'm not that confident they will get it right tbh.

 

[DesuNe]

It's a product of its time. It's very dated that's why many newer JRPGs leaned to more active movement in their battle systems.

 

[Menitta]

I liked it in Chrono Trigger. If you used Haste over and over again, you'd start looping turns.

 

[terandle]

I don't like it to be honest. FFX handled it the best imo.

Yeah I don't really find it that fulfilling to see how fast I can select Comet 2 in a small panel full of spells. Luckily FF7 had a setting to pause the timers in windows. But I'd prefer pure turn based like FFX.

 

[jasminlovesyoux]

I honestly never cared for it either. Give me Grandias battle system any day.

Which is like ffx showing turn order now that I think about it

 

[entremet]

Well, playing through Chrono Trigger DS again I kind of agree it hasn't aged that well.

But that being said I really don't care for the direction they took combat in FFXV either. Stuff like SMTIV and XCOM 2 do modern turn based combat right. I really hope FFVII remake has better combat than FFXV but Square has fallen off hard the last 10 years or so I'm not that confident they will get it right tbh.

Funny that I'm doing the same thing.

CT is a great game, but it was never ever challenging. I do think the ATB shines with better challenge. It was amazing in FFV.

 

[cireza]

Always hated it. Turn based is better. FFX for example is much better.

 

[Nachtfalke]

I like 10's system for boss fights, but it makes trash mob battles really tedious.

Can't agree on this one, especially not in comparison to the ATB. CTB is actually much quicker.

 

[Seven Force]

I like it a lot. I like the feeling of being forced to think on my feet.

That said, I think there's a place for all kinds of battle systems throughout the series, whether it's straight up turn based, ATB based, or even action RPG. Seeing what each game goes for and how it balances the game around it keeps the series interesting to me.

 

[DownGrader]

I like commands that require a "cooldown", no matter if it's a turn-based RPG or action RPG. In fact, I like them even more in action RPGs, with turn-based RPGs being fine even with a simplest battle system possible.

 

[nckillthegrimace]

The only good implementation of ATB that I can think of is in Baten Kaitos Origins because you can chain together sweet combos. But yeah, it sucks in Final Fantasy since it just makes battles take longer. They should have stuck with FFX's battle system.

 

[sir_bumble_bee]

It's a product of its time. It's very dated that's why many newer JRPGs leaned to more active movement in their battle systems.

I agree. IMO, either stick to pure turn-based or just go all out action. No need for middle ground (Valkyria Chronicles is an exception though).

 

[kinaesthete]

I'd take fully turn based over it in almost any case, especially if positioning is irrelevant. FFXII's mix of ATB and RTWP was a big improvement, though it could've made more use of taking place in the actual game world than it did.

 

[Dark_castle]

Go and play FFX-2.

 

[kadotsu]

XIII is the only ATB system I like, especially the LR implementation. Unfortunately everything else about these games tainted that system.

 

[Korigama]

I generally prefer normal turn-based combat instead of the odd real-time/turn-based hybrid that ATB represents, but FFIX and XIII were the only ones specifically that bothered me in how they used it. Xenogears was unusual in how it used it in that you waited for meters to fill before you could act, but enemies didn't attack you in the middle of making decisions during your turns, so it didn't bother me there.

 

[GeoGonzo]

I like 10's system for boss fights, but it makes trash mob battles really tedious.

Don't quote me on this one because I havent touched that game since back then, but didn't most trash fights take exactly one hit from the right character? I seem to recall you'll often face different kind of enemies so you could finished them off on turn 1, not letting them attack even once.

So unless Im wrong the only thing you could possibly find tedious about trash mob battles is their frequency, and not the battle system itself.

 

[InsaneTiger]

I like 10's system for boss fights, but it makes trash mob battles really tedious.

Agreed, this is why I liked Suikoden's Auto feature.

I find nothing wrong with ATB myself.

 

[Modest Mauser]

It's not a great JRPG battle system. At least, I haven't played any games that have executed it well.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

There is nothing wrong with either system. For some games i'd prefer it to just be turn based (FF7 doesnt really benefit from ATB imo) and some games like FFXIII would have its battle system ruined if it wasnt ATB.

 

[Caronte]

ATB can be as good as regular turn-based, Final Fantasy simply became a very casual series after IV.

Go and play FFX-2.

I still think they are idiots for not using this system in more games. A few improvements and it would be perfect.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I don't think what you're picking up on re: combat depth has anything to do with ATB conceptually. ATB just refers to a menu-driven battle system where "turn order" is instead driven by a speed statistic, filling timers, and delay or deliberation on menus for command selection can result in enemies taking additional actions.

As far as whether or not Final Fantasy games have shallow combat systems by default, yes, they do. They rarely make use of buffs, status effects never really have any weight or impact, weaknesses are typically dead obvious, normally your party is more than powerful enough to beat anything any number of ways without any power-leveling. The battle systems are designed so that they are engaging, action-packed, visually interesting, and feel powerful without being difficult or alienating a mass audience. You can generate depth by placing interesting limitations on how you play the games, but for most people the games will be pretty breezy.

If your objection is the enemy pre-emption of player moves when you're on a menu, as it seems to be by the end of the post, then I would wager that that's probably why every or virtually every FF game had a "wait" mode. Seems like an acceptable compromise to me.

 

[Modest Mauser]

ATB can be as good as regular turn-based, Final Fantasy simply became a very casual series after IV.

Final Fantasy created the ATB system right? It's interesting that they seem to have the most boring executions of it, at least to me. Others ITT have listed games that use the concept in deeper ways.

 

[KojiKnight]

Like most fights in most games, they are filler. That's not to say you can't enjoy a good mindless grind on occasion, but you should always keep in mind, atb exists as a means of extending a game that fit on a cartridge not much bigger than a floppy disc.

 

[_Ryo_]

I love Persona 3, Persona 4, and FFX's battle systems. FFX-2's battle system can fuck off somewhere though.

Anyway, I prefer turned based.

 

[Man God]

ATB in FF IV-IX is actually a clever way to adjust difficulty.

Putting any of the games that offer it on Wait is like picking easy mode on other games.

Turning up the battle speed ups the difficulty quite a bit in that it results in the AI getting more hits in than you and rewards quick thinking and decision making.

 

[antitrop]

Don't quote me on this one because I havent touched that game since back then, but didn't most trash fights take exactly one hit from the right character? I seem to recall you'll often face different kind of enemies so you could finished them off on turn 1, not letting them attack even once.

So unless Im wrong the only thing you could possibly find tedious about trash mob battles is their frequency, and not the battle system itself.

I haven't played FFX in 15 years, so I'm just going off memory. I remember it being really tedious, which was impressive coming off of IX's molasses-ass battles.

 

[Lights and Waves]

FFX-2 and Lightning Returns are proof that way they innovate with the ATB, it really REALLY pays off in fun, innovative ways.

 

[Man God]

I haven't played FFX in 15 years, so I'm just going off memory. I remember it being really tedious, which was impressive coming off of IX's molasses-ass battles.

Random encounters do tend to be pretty tedious in that game because of the need to switch in different party members to be able to hit certain types of enemies reliably.

 

[orborborb]

Final Fantasy 10's non-boss encounters are the low point of the series to me. 6, 7, 10-2, and 13-3 also have problems. 1, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 13 and 13-2 all have great battles (as long as you don't play re-releases that were made too easy)

 

[Brentonp]

They're good systems but can get a little stale at times. I've definitely enjoyed games that have had ATB systems and I think they do still have a place in modern gaming.

I just don't think they were the perfect battle systems that were so full of strategy like many people act like they are. As for FF, I think it's perfectly acceptable at this point for that franchise to continue evolving as it always has and try something different. Obviously I'm excited for XV!

 

[DeSolos]

I prefer pure turn based battle systems. I don't think rushing my decisions ever made the battles feel better.

 

[WickedLaharl]

Back in the 90s it was amazing. today not so much.

 

[redlemon]

As others have said, X-2 is the only one where I played where it was both noticeable and enjoyable.

 

[Ramzastrife]

I find that I still enjoy CT's battle system, but I do wish there was an easier way to streamline tech choices for trash. I find that I still prefer Turn based combat to action combat, whether it be ATB or not.

 

[sir_bumble_bee]

I don't think what you're picking up on re: combat depth has anything to do with ATB conceptually. ATB just refers to a menu-driven battle system where "turn order" is instead driven by a speed statistic, filling timers, and delay or deliberation on menus for command selection can result in enemies taking additional actions.

As far as whether or not Final Fantasy games have shallow combat systems by default, yes, they do. They rarely make use of buffs, status effects never really have any weight or impact, weaknesses are typically dead obvious, normally your party is more than powerful enough to beat anything any number of ways without any power-leveling. The battle systems are designed so that they are engaging, action-packed, visually interesting, and feel powerful without being difficult or alienating a mass audience. You can generate depth by placing interesting limitations on how you play the games, but for most people the games will be pretty breezy.

If your objection is the enemy pre-emption of player moves when you're on a menu, as it seems to be by the end of the post, then I would wager that that's probably why every or virtually every FF game had a "wait" mode. Seems like an acceptable compromise to me.

You're probably right on that. However, this doesn't fix my issue with the actual battle speed and how it's locked to how fast the gauge moves. For example, the first few fights in Final Fantasy VII are the most painful due how slow the ATB gauge fills, and your often just sitting there waiting to make an obvious move. Meanwhile, in a game like Dragon Quest V, the speed of the battle mostly depends on how fast you can actually select your move (putting aside the length of attack/spell animations as those vary game-to-game). The break in-between turns can be as long or as short as you so please.

Edit: Granted, it may just be that I have not played enough ATB games to come to this conclusion. I'm definitely picking up I Am Setsuna this year, so there's time for me to re-evaluate my stance.

 

[Jangowuzhere]

Absolutely hated it, and I never understood its appeal.

At the end of the day, it just encourages you to mash the attack button instead of actually thinking about the current situation. I ended up being more concerned about being attacked first instead of focusing on what I needed to defeat the enemy.

 

[Brentonp]

Battle systems like Grandia's and FFXII are far better at achieving that faster pace to ultimately turn-based systems. The FF ATB games, as well as Chrono Trigger, didn't really gain much from making you rush through menus, and that probably accounts at least in part why the usual Interplay between buffs, debuffs, and resistances is downplayed heavily in ATB games.

It's an idea that was cool at the time for being fresh but not actually all that useful or conceptually sound.

I'm probably in the minority but FFXII had one of my top favorite FF battle systems

 

[Leafhopper]

Honestly, I think Chrono Trigger's use of ATB was the best since it made sense as not only timing mattered but also the placement of enemies since they moved.

 

[kunonabi]

All these faux-MMO/action based RPG combat systems turn out to be terrible so overrated or not I'll take ATB over them every time. I'm flat out skipping FFXV myself.

 

[kamineko]

I like ATB with "wait" enabled

Rushing through menus isn't especially exciting, but basing number of turns on a speed statistic makes sense

 

[ethomaz]

ATP is a good system to use.
You don't need to blame the tool for the lack of strategy or dense in the battles... that is a design falt and not ATB system.

Why ATB has advantages over pure turn-based? Because stats affect all into the battle at the point the turn are dinamic and changes every time.

Except for this advantage ATB and turn based are the exact same thing.

Miles better than what they choose for the borecity FFXV.

All these faux-MMO/action based RPG combat systems turn out to be terrible so overrated or not I'll take ATB over them every time. I'm flat out skipping FFXV myself.

The way combos works requires ATB... you need to wait others chars to reach the bar while the enemies are fighting.

It feels awesome.

 

[Abstrusity]

I liked how FFXI did everything. Menu use was faster than macros for spell casting before you got equipment to switch in and out of for the purpose of stat boosting before spells. But it wasn't EXACTLY ATB. It's really dated, but the games themselves are more than passingly enjoyable beside it.

 

[wmlk]

I haven't played FFX in 15 years, so I'm just going off memory. I remember it being really tedious, which was impressive coming off of IX's molasses-ass battles.

Random encounters do tend to be pretty tedious in that game because of the need to switch in different party members to be able to hit certain types of enemies reliably.

Man, I hated playing FFX and the combat was such a big part of it. Each battle, I spent more time switching in and switching out party members than actively engaging in the combat. I loved the duality of using summons and just the normal party-based combat, but it just wasn't engaging.

FFXIII on the other hand had exciting combat and I really enjoyed the game. I think its auxiliary systems were trash but that mattered less to me than the combat since that's what you spend most of the time doing. I don't know why FFXIII's ATB is a different beast, OP.

Why ATB has advantages over pure turn-based? Because stats affect all into the battle at the point the turn are dinamic and changes every time.

Not necessarily. Chrono Cross was pure turn-based, but Stamina recovery for each characters were different which gave each character a different number of "turns" in each battle. Stats mattered there, too.

 

[jett]

I always disabled ATB in old FF games hah.

I actually like FFX and FFXII's combat systems the best.

 

[N30RYU]

ATB is one of my favorite mechanics in games... with Parasite Eve/Vagrant Story/Transistor/V.A.T.S. mechanics and the Grandia/FFX/Children of light action bar(turns)

A fusion of both in a game would be amazing

 

[Basileus777]

They've aged extraordinarily poorly and are a main reason why "turn-based" battles often get disparaged in RPG discussions. ATB combat is slow and almost never requires any interesting tactical choices or thought.