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[~Cross~]

People kept throwing untold amounts at the devs and then get surprised when the game doesnt come out.

Why release a game if you can just keep getting money.

I think thats the crux of this sort of perpetual crowdsourcing development. If you release just enough data to reassure your whales and they keep spending money on it then you dont need to actually release a game. With enough gaps in information people will just see the game they want to see, and not the reality of it.

This is the reality of SC right now in its alpha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEDSHFqsuYE

I'd love to see anything regarding SQ42, which is what the majority of the staff has been working on since the turn of the year, but they have shown absolutely nothing except a few pictures of their actors doing motion capture. Weirdly enough, Gary Oldman, their big star from last year, hasn't really been active that much and people think he peaced out after phoning in his lines and refuses to take any other contracts from them again.

 

[MUnited83]

I'd love to play Star Citizen, but at this point it feels like the video game version of pyramid scheme. Its been in development for way way too long.

I mean if you know literally nothing about game development you might think so, yeah.

 

[Geist-]

I like how they kept on changing their terms of service.

You mean the once every couple years? Like most companies do? The last change before the most recent one was February 2015 btw.

This is the reality of SC right now in its alpha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEDSHFqsuYE

I'm not sure if cherrypicking the most visually impressive game bugs is the best indicator of the game as a whole. Especially since I've played hours of the latest patch and have seen maybe...3 of those bugs.

Incorrect. They're entitled to a finished game. Does this mean it'll happen all the time? More likely, no. BUT they should be able to get their money back if after like 2-4 years there is nothing to show beyond the company making fancy doors and an expensive set to film Mark Hamill on.

Once again, I urge people to do actual research before they make claims like there's nothing to show.

 

[TheSeks]

The terms are pretty clear, in my opinion. The backer wasn't entitled to anything. There is always risk involved with crowdsourcing.

Incorrect. They're entitled to a finished game. Does this mean it'll happen all the time? More likely, no. BUT they should be able to get their money back if after like 2-4 years there is nothing to show beyond the company making fancy doors and an expensive set to film Mark Hamill on.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

To the console fans who just like shitposting.

Every few weeks you get new updates and playable modules.

Incorrect. They're entitled to a finished game. Does this mean it'll happen all the time? More likely, no. BUT they should be able to get their money back if after like 2-4 years there is nothing to show beyond the company making fancy doors and an expensive set to film Mark Hamill on.

But besides Squadron 42, the FPS module and the universe, a lot of things are finished.

You get far more than Eve Valkyrie e.g. right now with Star Citizen.

 

[charsace]

I wouldn't say it's a scam, but Star Citizen seems like a great case study for why good project managers are important

This game is not being managed badly though. They update the game regularly and give updates almost daily on the site about what is going on.

 

[patchday]

I put down like $45 for the single player campaign. I got a friend though that spent over $9k on backing this title though which blows my mind. He's single and pretty successful tho

Not sure how I feel bout this guy getting his refund. Good for him I guess but this is the chance you take with kickstarters

I now only back my friends only

 

[WalTech]

Really? What were you purchasing at the $10 tier?

Crowdfunding is NOT a pre-order.

Right now it looks like I could get a subscription, a couple of skins, or a character model from the RSI store. I would consider all of those purchases and would expect them to be given to me. I could also purchase some UEE credits.

For 45 bucks I could purchase a starter game package.

 

[Zalusithix]

I mean if you know literally nothing about game development you might think so, yeah.

More likely he knows nothing about what a pyramid scheme even is. You don't need to know anything about game development to realize it's not a pyramid scheme. The absolute closest the game comes to a pyramid scheme is referral rewards, but those happened long after it was massively funded, and wouldn't qualify anyhow even if they existed from the get go.

 

[Acorn]

I put down like $45 for the single player campaign. I got a friend though that spent over $9k on backing this title though which blows my mind. He's single and pretty successful tho

Not sure how I feel bout this guy getting his refund. Good for him I guess but this is the chance you take with kickstarters

I now only back my friends only

9k? God damn

 

[Htown]

Whether or not the game actually ever comes out (I think it's pretty clear that it will), the original terms of service states that the user might be eligible for a refund after 18 months if the product isn't delivered.

Which is probably why they recently changed the Terms of Service to make it harder to get a refund, including removing a reference to your kickstarter pledge being a "payment" and replacing the 18 month deadline with the cessation of development:

Thing is, the new TOS only applies to new pledges, so if you backed the Kickstarter way back when, you might still be entitled to a refund under the old terms.

So no, Star Citizen is not a scam. RSI should be willing to give refunds, however.

 

[Krejlooc]

Right now it looks like I could get a subscription, a couple of skins, or a character model from the RSI store. I would consider all of those purchases and would expect them to be given to me. I could also purchase some UEE credits.

Pledge $10 or more

CIVILIAN: Be part of the creation of the game.

Every pledger reinforces that Space Sims are not dead and nor are PC Gamers!

.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

I'm very biased towards this project, as Foundry 42 is pretty much the only major studio in the North West right now (other than TT) so I want their game to be really good.

It's obvious that the longer the game dev process goes on, the more disgruntled various people are going to be. The key is if the devs keep soldiering on, releasing more and more of the game and satisfying their backers that the game is growing.

 

[Giant Panda]

I don't think backers deserve anything unless they can prove fraud occurred. Taking a long time to make isn't fraud, only things like taking the money and spending it on booze and hookers would count.

 

[WalTech]

.

That's from the kickstarter, though, which ended in 2012. They only raised like 2 million on there, and the other 115 million is from purchases on their site. They're still crowdfunding development, but let's not pretend that kickstarter is relevant to them anymore.

In the kickstarter case, however, I will absolutely agree that the 10 dollar and 5 dollar pledges were simply donations. However StreetRoller bought in to this in 2014, way after this was moved to CIG/RSI's own crowdfunding platform.

 

[Krejlooc]

That's from the kickstarter, though, which ended in 2012. They only raised like 2 million on there, and the other 115 million is from purchases on their site. They're still crowdfunding development, but let's not pretend that kickstarter is relevant to them anymore.

In the kickstarter case, however, I will absolutely agree that the 10 dollar and 5 dollar pledges were simply donations. However StreetRoller bought in to this in 2014, way after this was moved to CIG/RSI's own crowdfunding platform.

It takes incredible cognitive dissonance to understand that crowdfunding from one site is a donation, but not understand that crowdfunding from another site on the exact same project is also a donation.

All pledges are a donation.

 

[Jimmyfenix]

Good on him

 

[~Cross~]

I don't think backers deserve anything unless they can prove fraud occurred. Taking a long time to make isn't fraud, only things like taking the money and spending it on booze and hookers would count.

Hey its not the consumers fault that the people at top gave them an out in case things took too long. The idea that they offered a refund was to inspire confidence in people to buy their product. Now things aren't as honky dory anymore and they've since cut back on the refund TOS but that doesn't stop that they directly benefited from that extra confidence and should be held accountable if the person is bound to it and have no confidence left in the project.

It takes incredible cognitive dissonance to understand that crowdfunding from one site is a donation, but not understand that crowdfunding from another site on the exact same project is also a donation.

All pledges are a donation.

Then why are they charging VAT on UK/EU? Taxing donations?

Its product and a service. If you have any issues with how the game is being managed and you live in the UK/EU they will fold the moment you tell them that they are running afoul with consumer protection laws. No cries about them being pledges or donations are helping them there and the last thing they want is for something like this to hit the courts in the states and creating legal precedence. They'll settle the moment you mention the FTC/AG or even the BBB.

 

[RubberJohnny]

 

[jabuseika]

What a mess.

 

[Fret]

What a mess.

hardly a mess, its just taking a lot longer than expected. the game in its current playable state is actually quite impressive.

 

[AmuroChan]

Good for this guy. I tried getting a refund on Mighty No. 9 and was flat out told no.

 

[WalTech]

It takes incredible cognitive dissonance to understand that crowdfunding from one site is a donation, but not understand that crowdfunding from another site on the exact same project is also a donation.

All pledges are a donation.

If you owned a lemonade stand and I gave you 10 dollars to buy some (wildly overpriced) lemonade, that's a purchase. If I came and gave you 10 dollars because I believe in you or whatever, that's a donation.

In one scenario, I expect a product for my money (purchase). In the other, I'm giving you money simply to support you and expect nothing in return(donation).

 

[Krejlooc]

If you owned a lemonade stand and I gave you 10 dollars to buy some (wildly overpriced) lemonade, that's a purchase.

When you donate yo pbs, you get a tote bag. It is still a donation that you may write off. Getting a gift with a donation does not make it a purchase.

 

[jabuseika]

hardly a mess, its just taking a lot longer than expected. the game in its current playable state is actually quite impressive.

I've played what they have released, there's very little game there.

It's a cool tech demo so far.

Just give it 5 more years.

 

[WalTech]

When you donate yo pbs, you get a tote bag. It is still a donation that you may write off. Getting a gift with a donation does not make it a purchase.

Can you write off your Star Citizen "donations"? Does PBS have to remit taxes on your donation?

 

[cyress8]

Kinda of weird that people think they will release everything in the alpha builds. It is mainly a testing ground to gain input from backers. I can bet they are working on all of this. Also the first form of Bounty Hunting is in. You can become an outlaw and be hunted in the build we have now.

Edit: Trading is also in. You can buy clothes

 

[Krejlooc]

Then why are they charging VAT on UK/EU? Taxing donations?

Because of obtuse laws that havent caught up to the reality of modern crowdfunding

 

[Zalusithix]

I could live with the posting of this before to somebody asking about the state of the alpha, but it's entirely misleading when in this thread. That's not the state of development. That's the state of the publicly playable alpha. What end users have access to is not the entire state of the game.

 

[Krejlooc]

Can you write off your Star Citizen "donations"? Does PBS have to remit taxes on your donation?

Not all donations are a tax write off. If i give my brother a donation of $1000, i cannot write it off, but that does not mean i purchased anything from him.

I like how you are trying to argue against the common sense mentality that you are donating to a project, not pre ordering a product.

 

[platocplx]

scope creep is a killer to any project. Thats project management 101. They should have kept it simple initially and then schedule expansions on top of it.

This is what happens when something is an idea but they dont really look at all the details and really just keep adding on it becomes a forever project

 

[The Dear Leader]

It's a huge game, huge games take time. It's not like they took this guy's money and ran there are updates all the time and the work on the game is as steady as any ambitious game is.

Maybe they should have named it The Last Citizen so they could have bought a decades worth of fans frothing at the mouth. Seems to be a huge double standard with this game where people just want it to fail.

 

[Krejlooc]

scope creep is a killer to any project.

Please cite said scope creep in star citizen

 

[~Cross~]

Because of obtuse laws that havent caught up to the reality of modern crowdfunding

Hahaha. "The reality of crowdsourcing" is something that no one inside the crowd sourcing community wants to be addressed. Thats why the moment anyone threatens CIG through legal means they'll instantly fold.

They dont want to create precedence on the market. Having something like forcing the companies to publish their books if the vast majority of their funds come from CS would absolutely destroy them.

 

[Fret]

I've played what they have released, there's very little game there.

because its an alpha

 

[WalTech]

Not all donations are a tax write off. If i give my brother a donation of $1000, i cannot write it off, but that does not mean i purchased anything from him.

I like how you are trying to argue against the common sense mentality that you are donating to a project, not pre ordering a product.

If you gave your brother one thousand dollars for nothing, then yes, it would be a donation. That's what I'm saying. If you gave it to him with the expectation that he would give you some sort of good or service (like a game or a space ship), then it would be classified as a purchase, no?

 

[Geist-]

I could live with the posting of this before to somebody asking about the state of the alpha, but it's entirely misleading when in this thread. That's not the state of development. That's the state of the publicly playable alpha. What end users have access to is not the entire state of the game.

Especially considering the leak from last year. So much content that wasn't in the alpha, new landing zones, finished assets for Vanduul ships, the (SQ42 spoiler)

Spoiler

Retribution

. And it's been a more than a year since then.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

The terms are pretty clear, in my opinion. The backer wasn't entitled to anything. There is always risk involved with crowdsourcing.

Of course he was, he was entitled to his money back. Kickstarter isn't about taking an investment risk it is about helping developers get started. If you feel like you no longer want to support the development of a product you should be entitled to do so.

This isn't venture capital or an investment firm, it is a paypal donations button that is more official.

 

[taoofjord]

Well, he got the refund, so I guess the people in charge of that disagree with you.

Perhaps. Or they didn't want negative PR and they've received so much money already that they decided to do it just because.

Personally, I don't think backers are entitled to a refund (that's not the point of crowdfunding) and only should be if the company straight up lied about how they are using the money. For example, if instead of developing the game they used that money to buy a house, etc.

 

[Onemic]

Nope

Not even close.

I dont see it releasing until late 2017 at the absolute earliest. Realistically the game wont come out till sometime in 2018.

 

[RubberJohnny]

I could live with the posting of this before to somebody asking about the state of the alpha, but it's entirely misleading when in this thread. That's not the state of development. That's the state of the publicly playable alpha. What end users have access to is not the entire state of the game.

Aside from the seven or so landing zones in various states of completion, it is the state of Star Citizen. You're not going to a Squadron42-style asset leak for the persistent universe, WYSIWYG. They're still working on completing one star system by the end of this year, and there's no indication they've written even a line of code for some of those careers, not to mention all the smaller ship-specific gameplay systems like science, data couriering and so on.

Kinda of weird that people think they will release everything in the alpha builds. It is mainly a testing ground to gain input from backers. I can bet they are working on all of this. Also the first form of Bounty Hunting is in. You can become an outlaw and be hunted in the build we have now.

Imagine seeing all this negative press popping up, the endless delays, the slow but steady decline in backer enthusiasm, and still believing CIG is hiding all sorts of amazing content behind closed doors because of spoilers.

 

[Yopis]

It's a huge game, huge games take time. It's not like they took this guy's money and ran there are updates all the time and the work on the game is as steady as any ambitious game is.

Maybe they should have named it The Last Citizen so they could have bought a decades worth of fans frothing at the mouth. Seems to be a huge double standard with this game where people just want it to fail.

Nah it's just most whiners don't have the means to even play. People lash out at what they can't afford or try. Let's them feel better about not having the option. Anyone with a brain can see the scope, and updates coming at regular intervals.

 

[admiraltaftbar]

When you donate yo pbs, you get a tote bag. It is still a donation that you may write off. Getting a gift with a donation does not make it a purchase.

That's completely different from kickstarter. PBS is a non profit that requires donations to operate and produce content. It's a donation because they have a non-profit status. Companies on kickstarter are not non-profit so its really not comparable.

Plus if PBS was like a kickstarter campaign they would run their donation drives as "if we reach $10,000" you can have new episodes of sesame street.

Crowdsourcing is its own thing entirely (not investing and not donating) and it eventually needs a clear set of basic rules and expectations.

 

[pj]

I could live with the posting of this before to somebody asking about the state of the alpha, but it's entirely misleading when in this thread. That's not the state of development. That's the state of the publicly playable alpha. What end users have access to is not the entire state of the game.

What's the state of development? If they have more stuff done or almost done why wouldn't it be in the alpha?

 

[cyress8]

Perhaps. Or they didn't want negative PR and they've receive so much money already that they decided to do it just because.

Yep, plus going to court with the guy will cost them more than just giving him that minuscule amount of money back.

 

[Krejlooc]

If you gave your brother one thousand dollars for nothing, then yes, it would be a donation. That's what I'm saying. If you gave it to him with the expectation that he would give you some sort of good or service (like a game or a space ship), then it would be classified as a purchase, no?

There is no exoectatiom of transfer of goods ot services. I didnt pay for a ship that existed. I donated money for them to try and make the ship in the first place, with the caveat that, should they be successful, they will give me a ship for free later on.

 

[low-G]

The defense force for this game is pretty delusional. I'm a $30 donor and I'm pretty sure Squadron 42 isn't even going to come out let alone Star Citizen considering the bloat & how the devs seem to only want to craft more ships to rake in more whale money.

What is in game now is pretty terrible, buggy, a complete mess. Tresspasser was many magnitudes better formed at release.

Work has been done, but it seems their direction is completely fucked.

 

[WalTech]

That's completely different from kickstarter. PBS is a non profit that requires donations to operate and produce content. It's a donation because they have a non-profit status. Companies on kickstarter are not non-profit so its really not comparable.

Plus if PBS was like a kickstarter campaign they would run their donation drives as "if we reach $10,000" you can have new episodes of sesame street.

I heard that PBS is developing some really amazing umbrellas and tote bags, and if we give them enough money we'll eventually get some!

 

[~Cross~]

I could live with the posting of this before to somebody asking about the state of the alpha, but it's entirely misleading when in this thread. That's not the state of development. That's the state of the publicly playable alpha. What end users have access to is not the entire state of the game.

This is the state of the alpha as its the only thing people can visually see. SQ42 could be further ahead but we've seen almost nothing about it.

Also things like extra solar systems wont be in SQ42. Most ships that will show up in SQ42 are already in the alpha with the exception of the really big ones like the idris. And I seriously doubt they'd have operating systems like mining and such in SQ42 without play testing them in the alpha.

 

[UCBooties]

For as ambitious as this game was starting out I am surprised they didn't try to lock down scope creep as early as possible. I don't think comparisons to DNF are entirely apt because SC is at least releasing playable builds to backers, but I definitely think this could be a case of overpromising until you reach a point where you can't possibly deliver.

Then again, backers of this project have poured an absolute ocean of money into this, so I guess they've got the budget for it.