They have an attorney on their payrolls on retainer. It would technically cost them nothing to go to court since he's getting paid anyways. Of course they wont though because creating any sort of precedence is just opening the floodgates on the entire thing.
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Star Citizen Backer Successfully Gets $2550 Refund
- Thread starter wesleyshark
- Start date
They have an attorney on their payrolls on retainer. It would technically cost them nothing to go to court since he's getting paid anyways. Of course they wont though because creating any sort of precedence is just opening the floodgates on the entire thing.
Clearly there is an expectation because it was written into the TOS.
If there is no expectation of goods and services, then why would you tie the donations to goods and services? Why would I buy a $45 starter pack when I can just donate $45 and toss it into a big pot instead?
Because I want my damned ship, that's why. I'm... Buying... it.
You can absolutely donate to for-profit organizations. The definition of "donation" has nothing to do with the tax status of the company you are donating to.
They had 270 employees in 2014. Conservatively they are burning $30 million a year on salaries/benefits alone. That is assuming they haven't increased the size of the team since then.
How much have they spent and how much longer are they going to be able to employ all those people?
Here's some informative material:
June Monthly Report
TL;DRs are available here.
That's...wrong.
Foundry 42 financials also if anyone wants to know how much their largest studio spends.
'you didn't get scammed because you willingly donated and shouldn't expect anything'
That's some serious koolaid you're drinking. They sold it as preorders and used pressure tactics to get money out of people early on with the lifetime insurance and limited availability ships.
I'm sure there's people who put money in because they just want to see space sims come back, that was my rationale at the time at least. But there's no way you honestly believe they weren't whale hunting.
um
you serious here? How many times has it been pushed back now? And I'm specifically referring to when I originally bought into the game, around when they put up their own storefront for crowdfunding. If someone had told me I'd still be waiting for Squadron 42 at the end of 2016 - let's be real here it's going to get delayed again - I probably wouldn't have even believed them because it's so absurd. And I'm in the apparent small minority that never cared about the MMO, which I EXPECTED to either never happen or be incredibly disappointing.
If they can't even deliver on the comparatively small proof of concept singleplayer they promised then yeah I'd say that's the definition of 'mess'.
That's some serious koolaid you're drinking. They sold it as preorders and used pressure tactics to get money out of people early on with the lifetime insurance and limited availability ships.
I'm sure there's people who put money in because they just want to see space sims come back, that was my rationale at the time at least. But there's no way you honestly believe they weren't whale hunting.
um
you serious here? How many times has it been pushed back now? And I'm specifically referring to when I originally bought into the game, around when they put up their own storefront for crowdfunding. If someone had told me I'd still be waiting for Squadron 42 at the end of 2016 - let's be real here it's going to get delayed again - I probably wouldn't have even believed them because it's so absurd. And I'm in the apparent small minority that never cared about the MMO, which I EXPECTED to either never happen or be incredibly disappointing.
If they can't even deliver on the comparatively small proof of concept singleplayer they promised then yeah I'd say that's the definition of 'mess'.
The tos that says you are not entitled to a refund save for a case by case examination?
They arent tied to goods and services. You can donate $45 without choosing a reward, or you can donate $5 9 times and get no reward.
Then you should wait till the ship is for sale, then
Memorabilia
Member
To anyone in the know, in your estimation what percentage - if any - of SC's development issues are related to CryEngine limitations/quirks/idiosyncrasies?
I would never say the game is a scam but I don't think there will ever be a day that the game is "finished" to an extent that would satisfy the average retail customer. The mentality behind it seems to be more concerned with development for the sake of development than with reaching any solid, final goal. Which there is nothing wrong with that, per se, it's just that it appeals to a certain kind of person who is quite different from the average gamer.
I don't think he was out of bounds getting a refund because what the development of Star Citizen has turned into is quite different today than it was when it was first conceived, so he's really not wrong.
I don't think he was out of bounds getting a refund because what the development of Star Citizen has turned into is quite different today than it was when it was first conceived, so he's really not wrong.
You didnt get scammed because they are still using your money to make the game. This is evident by the weekly newsletter they put out showing exactly where they are using your money.
adversarial
Member
Am I reading this right? They received $117 million?
And counting.
Big parts of the engine had to be rewritten. Of course, the same would apply to virtually every modern engine due to the nature of the game and the technology required. Modern engines just weren't designed with space sims in mind, what with the massive open spaces separating extermely detailed objects.
On the plus side, they have the creators of CryEngine working in the Frankfurt office so you couldn't ask for a more qualified team.
I would say the biggest issue as far as I know is the netcode. Everything else doesn't seem to be much of a problem beyond normal alpha bugs, but the netcode is apparently causing headaches.
Based on recent status updates though, we should be seeing the new netcode implemented in the next couple patches (as soon as next month or a few months from now).
That's...wrong.
Foundry 42 financials also if anyone wants to know how much their largest studio spends.
You'll have to take it up with some guy named "Chris Roberts". Not sure if he knows what he's talking about.
http://venturebeat.com/2014/06/16/w...nd-the-new-way-to-fund-aaa-games-interview/2/
You don't pay benefits to contractors but they make way more per hour so the total cost isn't tremendously different
The TOS said that if the game wasn't out by June 1st, 2016 that people could get a full refund, and then they tried to deny the guy his refund. He's within the rights that CIG gave him.
This is stretching pretty far. It's quite clear what the intent is, even if people can donate $5 9 times, people aren't doing that. They see a ship they like, they buy said ship, and they expect to get that ship in a finished game. Arguing that people are only donating is disingenuous.
CIG is always having sales, and they aren't some needy charity that needs the cash to survive. They're a for-profit company that is selling items to people in exchange for creating a game to use them in.
I'm sorry I thought they had kept adding features since the original KS campaign like the FPS and MMO systems. I assumed it was just a new version of Wing Commander in the original pitch. I will admit though that I haven't watched it closely because it's not my genre.
There is no other engine that would be better than CryEngine given their current resources. And it was the best choice in the past.
There is no engine on the market that wouldnt need to be fundamentally reworked to handle this game.
RubberJohnny
Banned
That's...wrong.
It isn't wrong, they made heavy use of outsourcing back then, that image doesn't describe their true size. They had:
- Void Alpha doing landing zones
- Behaviour Interactive working on boarding with a team of 60.
- 3lateral and Cubic Motion on facial animation and capture
- Moon Collider on Kythera AI
- Illfonic on Star Marine
- Streamline Studios did the Vanduul fleet in the SQ42 leak
- Confetti Special FX did explosion and nebula tech
- CGBot did art
- Liquid Development did art
- Massive Black did art
- Atomahawk Design did art
What the fuck is up with the hate and vitriol of the gaming community towards ambitious games? I notice this with No Man's Sky and even more so with Star Citizen.
We should be glad people are trying to create something special even at the risk of failing.
I know people got burnt bad on Molineux promises and shady kickstarters in the past but come on man nobody is forcing you to get invested (emotionally or financially).
How a lot of the comments sound like they almost WANT the game to fail now is just super fucking disappointing.
We should be glad people are trying to create something special even at the risk of failing.
I know people got burnt bad on Molineux promises and shady kickstarters in the past but come on man nobody is forcing you to get invested (emotionally or financially).
How a lot of the comments sound like they almost WANT the game to fail now is just super fucking disappointing.
Being skeptical of a project =/= wanting a project to fail. Given the ambition of what they've promised and the scale of the budget they've been given to work with, there's nothing wrong with asking questions about how they are delivering on those projects.
Thats why they are making like 3h of youtube video content and lots of diaries on the site every week.
They are really straightforward with backers, thats why the campaign is so successful.
If the developer was stupid to put a refund clause in it original T&C then fair play to the individual.I certainly would never spent more than RRP for a Early Access/Kickstarter game, as I known it's a risk I want to help fund and develop a game I want to play.
I generally dislike refunding a game just because I did'nt like it. It's like me buying a different can of soda to try out, then not liking the taste. I don't ask for for a refund.
I generally dislike refunding a game just because I did'nt like it. It's like me buying a different can of soda to try out, then not liking the taste. I don't ask for for a refund.
There isn't, but most of those "just asking questions" people seem limited to posting snarky forum posts rather than read the wealth of information and updates available.
Also people seem to be under impression that you can put out an AAA game from not even having a studio to completion in 2 years.
RubberJohnny
Banned
Really? What's the current estimated release date? When's the next patch coming out?
In this customers case it would be closer to buying a suit you liked on display and then getting a refund because the tailor was taking too long to make it and had slightly changed the style in the middle of making it.
Star Citizen and No Man's Sky aren't comparable at all. NMS was made, meaning completed, by a small team and sounds like it will deliver on its promises. People hating on that game seem to be more of the "it looks pointless and boring" variety.
SC has a budget probably 20x that of NMS, has been in development for years, by a team 15x larger, and is still nowhere near complete. It's perfectly valid to question their management and ask where the hell all that money is going and if a real game is ever going to be released. The complaints about this game are that the scope got out of control, the management has been inadequate, and that it's never going to be finished.
Should people, especially backers, just sit back and be like "it's cool, we gave you $110 million. take your time. if nothing comes of it, oh well"?
I agree with your post but I just wanted to point out that this project has attracted threads like this from day one.
I possibly don't know what I'm talking about here but, the game was funded in 2012. The game was in development for 4 years by a studio that started with under 100 employees. Ubisoft takes like 2-3 years to create an AC game and that's using 2x-3x more manpower than these guys even have. I'm pretty sure it'll take these guys more than 4 years to create something if this magnitude.
Sweeney Tom
Banned
It will never be finished
It's primarily, speaking from my own perspective, because they promised a timeline that they've utterly failed to meet. Excuses are excuses and they're still shitty. I don't care about their transparency, really. They set an expectation and fucked it up; If this happened outside of crowd-funding the studio would likely be shuttered (or getting fucked by their publisher) due to all the missed milestones.
I've just chalked up my paltry $60 to being lost, though.
This is an important distinction. If it were possible to legally protect yourself as a business from refunds by saying you're "crowdfunding" or whatever, every single store would be claiming what they sell is exactly that. The law isn't an idiot you can "magic words" your way around generally, and no matter what some TOS or whatever says, "you give me $X, I give you Y item at some unspecified future point in time" is legally considered a pre-order, and many countries have laws specifically stating that you are entitled to a full refund on a pre-order which hasn't been delivered yet (and usually a certain amount of days after, like 14), no exceptions or questions asked.
In situations where the entity required to issue refunds won't (or can't) issue refunds, legal sanctions become possible. If it's "we can't issue refunds because we have no money" that usually ends in the company going bankrupt and/or being forced to liquidate its assets and possibly other legally-imposed ramifications depending on the specific circumstances.
PackAPunchedMick
Member
One hundred and seventeen million dollars!
Release? Sometime in the future........
Release? Sometime in the future........
wesleyshark
Banned
Not enough to warrant any confidence.
so like are you demanding daily updates instead of weekly?
I hear this alot, but now that things are starting to get real, it becomes increasingly implausible that CIG is simply holding back a ton of content because of "spoilers" or managing expectations or what have you.
Imagine you're a company with declining sales, declining interest, a recent spat of negative press, and former investors actively contacting the AG and Better Business Bureau to procure refunds. Fans are upset because you recently backed out of E3 after saying you would attend the year previous. Also imagine that you made your initial pitch to investors as an openly developed game. Yet despite all this, you decide not to show all the amazing breakthroughs and game mechanics you've completed behind closed doors...because spoilers!!!
It's far more likely that the reason they don't show anything is because they simply don't have anything to show. And the reasons for that will make some very entertaining reads in the postmortem's written about CIG.
Except a lot of them are delayed/pushed-back and/or buggy and not released.
None of Star Citizen looks good. They keep delaying releases because none of it looks good. Why do you think backers are starting to get pissed? It's been four years everything coming out of the company has been a total shit show. But please defend them harder, I'm sure they appreciate you and thousands of other
Rofl, hyperbole at it´s finest.
Dictator93
Member
We know for a fact that is indeed the case though. The leak that happened last year showed they had tons of things which they are not showing the public.
Furthermore I sent you a PM.
wesleyshark
Banned
How long as this game been in development again?
years, which amounts to hundreds of updates.
RubberJohnny
Banned
They can't manage patches monthly, what good is more cringey videos and empty words when it doesn't translate into progress?
Only for Squadron42, not for the actual game called "Star Citizen" that the thread is about.
Monthly patches for an in-development game would slow development even more.
Did you really ask what good updates are for? They're good at showing you what is currently being worked on. Maybe try reading those words instead.
wesleyshark
Banned
And no actual, finalized game.
"Don't update me, just finish the game" while complaining that work isn't being done is weird, circular logic.
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