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PS4 Neo presentation might have leaked

Lady Gaia

Member
I think it safe to say Microsoft know what specs they will have already.

I'm not so convinced. Knowing what specs the simulations give you is one thing. Knowing how production silicon will behave and what you'll have to do to mitigate yield issues and thermal surprises is another thing altogether.

I believe they have a target in mind and a concrete design on the table. The question is whether they'll hit their target, or what they'll do if it doesn't go as smoothly as expected. Would they turn clock speeds down? Ship something that runs hot and is potentially failure prone? Or slide their schedule? These are questions every project involving significant custom silicon faces this far out.

... and I don't buy the half-precision argument at all. That's just madness. Can you imagine the backlash if people held off purchases for a year to wait for a less powerful machine? Microsoft may misjudge the market from time to time, but they know full well that would be the end of the Xbox brand.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
I'm not so convinced. Knowing what specs the simulations give you is one thing. Knowing how production silicon will behave and what you'll have to do to mitigate yield issues and thermal surprises is another thing altogether.

I believe they have a target in mind and a concrete design on the table. The question is whether they'll hit their target, or what they'll do if it doesn't go as smoothly as expected. Would they turn clock speeds down? Ship something that runs hot and is potentially failure prone? Or slide their schedule? These are questions every project involving significant custom silicon faces this far out.

... and I don't buy the half-precision argument at all. That's just madness. Can you imagine the backlash if people held off purchases for a year to wait for a less powerful machine? Microsoft may misjudge the market from time to time, but they know full well that would be the end of the Xbox brand.

I doubt that a little. Clock rates change, Xbox one is a good example for this.

Of course final clocks speeds will be determined nearer launch when engineering know what size the box will be and what cooling system it has and if it all works as expected. All I'm saying is that for MS to go on stage at E3 and put out 6TF, 320GB/s they must have strong reasons for stating such i.e. possibly early silicon from the lab. Microsoft already know what the APU will be up from. Most here think Zen/Vega.

I'm looking forward to comparing the render of the motherboard to the final console. I think it might be fairly close even being 18 months out.

Leyasu said:
I think that he was talking about hardware, not the clocks.

Correct.
 

scently

Member
I'm not so convinced. Knowing what specs the simulations give you is one thing. Knowing how production silicon will behave and what you'll have to do to mitigate yield issues and thermal surprises is another thing altogether.

I believe they have a target in mind and a concrete design on the table. The question is whether they'll hit their target, or what they'll do if it doesn't go as smoothly as expected. Would they turn clock speeds down? Ship something that runs hot and is potentially failure prone? Or slide their schedule? These are questions every project involving significant custom silicon faces this far out.

... and I don't buy the half-precision argument at all. That's just madness. Can you imagine the backlash if people held off purchases for a year to wait for a less powerful machine? Microsoft may misjudge the market from time to time, but they know full well that would be the end of the Xbox brand.

Yes. It could very well be over 6tflops, since we are all so sure they are not sure yet.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
geordiemp said:
So when do you think Sony will launch a Ps4 upgrade that is capable of 60 FPS open world gaming for enthusiasts?
The only reason high end machines present such upgrade paths is because software is built for the low-end (and the largest marketshare). The moment that changes (marketshare shifts, people target closer to the said enthusiast spec) your 60fps machine becomes a 30fps machine again.
Neo is a close enough a match to upgrade a lot of games framerate with minimal effort, and open-world aspects are really the least important variable in all of this, no matter what arm-chair internet claims. But it's a fragile balance, and if market-share grows enough for "Neo enhanced visuals" to become a marketing thing, that fps-budget will go into screenshots in an instant. The same goes for other future boxes.
 

otakukidd

Member
No, that's not what I'm saying. I actually said that if the console limit the game they should be dropped, for that game only.

Because battlefield demanding more than what ps360 were capable of pushing at decent framerates shouldn't limits the games that didn't like destiny, titan fall, call of duty and every other cross gen game that didn't had anything scaled back on last gen other than framerate or visuals.
The thing though is destiny was totally by held back by being on the ps4 and 360. You can tell where they cut corners after playing it for a short time.
 

horkrux

Member
Potentially dumb question but I've been a bit out of the loop on PC GPUs as of late. I know it has a shitton more bandwidth but aside from that doesn't the Neo GPU compare pretty favorably to the R9 Fury X? It's also a 4.2tflop AMD card and it can manage 50+ fps in Doom at 4k/Ultra when using Vulkan, which helps bring a lot of console style optimizations to PC. I know bandwidth is a key sticking point here but I was wondering if there way anything else that differentiated the two GPUs.

This DF video is what made me think of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27zvYGSGrng

It's not a dumb question, but you got something confused: The Fury X is a 8+TFLOPS card, so twice as much.
 

Durante

Member
Of course devs are free to do what they prefer. It isn't about what is specifically beneficial to Scorpio - MS are looking at this as a bigger picture than just Xbox, its a cross platform approach that needs to work well on PC too.

Sony is pushing this reconstruction approach, and MS have used dynamic resolution before and talked about it specifically in relation to Scorpio. It also potentially makes a 'play anywhere' game more easily portable between PC and XB1.

It may simply be something that MS uses in first party games, or they may recommend that approach. We'll have to wait and see.
Maybe I'm missing something, but your argument seems to assume that you can't do temporal reconstruction on a PC. If so, I wonder where that assumption comes from -- ultimately, most modern TSSAA methods are already reconstruction approaches, they just don't spread temporal samples across multiple pixels at this point.

In any case, I'd first want to see the output of this type of temporal reconstruction, especially in what I presume to be failure cases (e.g. thin, moving structures).
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
That will be hard to pull off in practice. I don't see how you can set a framebuffer of 4k and expect to scale dynamically between X1 and Scorpio. Every developer will do as they see fit. The dynamic scaling was just in response to how games with a dynamic res will run as full res on Scorpio.

Why? Xbox one wouldn't be targetting a 4K buffer, it'd be 1080p. So like how halo 5 currently runs dynamic resolution but scales the result to 1080p before outputting, Scorpio would do the same but be starting off at a higher baseline - eg 1440p or higher, and then scaling to 4K.
 

Pooya

Member
Is it really hard to believe that NEO is way weaker than something that is coming a year later and probably cost even more than NEO? That's to be expected.

I think NEO is fine and price seems to be good if it's 400, it's positioned to do well.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Maybe I'm missing something, but your argument seems to assume that you can't do temporal reconstruction on a PC. If so, I wonder where that assumption comes from -- ultimately, most modern TSSAA methods are already reconstruction approaches, they just don't spread temporal samples across multiple pixels at this point.

In any case, I'd first want to see the output of this type of temporal reconstruction, especially in what I presume to be failure cases (e.g. thin, moving structures).

I'm not assuming PC can't do reconstruction, I'm going off the basis of MS going with a dynamic resolution (and details) approach for halo 5 on Xbox, and forza apex on PC. Also extrapolating that out to their windows + xb1 + Scorpio wider portfolio of devices to support where a flexible resolution may be more suitable (flexible) than a reconstruction based approach where you might have more a fixed buffer resolution.

Of course you could do that on any platform, and engine/rendering practice is a constantly moving thing so it may well be that everyone moves across to this reconstruction model for 4K with boxes that aren't quite capable of driving it natively.
 
Read through the thread since I made my last post.

So, Microsoft is lying about 6 terflops and releasing a 3 teraflops machine with 320GB/s memory bandwidth and 12GB RAM in late 2017 and "uprendering" is a thing now.

Frank-Underwood-Closing-Door-House-of-Cards.gif
 

Padinn

Member
A quick through, but if the GPU rendering technique is as good as it seems to appear (50%) then I would prefer a boost to larger CPU power.
 
I'm not spinning anything I'm just pointing out that if the GPU is using FP16 they could still say it's 6TF even if they are not talking about single-precision FP32.

Come on that's spinning using a metric no platform holder uses to express a GPU Tflops performance. Might just as well say don't worry sony is just using 4Tflops of Double precision performance. Its really a 8Tflop machine when it comes to gaming uses.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
A quick through, but if the GPU rendering technique is as good as it seems to appear (50%) then I would prefer a boost to larger CPU power.
If we're talking about potential improvements to these specs then in terms of importance I would rank CPU>Bandwidth>GPU but I think bandwidth is the most likely and CPU the least likely
 

Chaostar

Member
Is it really hard to believe that NEO is way weaker than something that is coming a year later and probably cost even more than NEO? That's to be expected.

I think NEO is fine and price seems to be good if it's 400, it's positioned to do well.

This. MS PR has done what it does best and got people talking about tech that's much more than a year away. Already the arguments and comparisons with Neo, a console that we could have in our homes within 3-4 months, are creeping in. Inevitable really but they have triggered it early in an attempt to kill Neo hype.

Neo could have a very significant time on market and price advantage by the time Scorpio releases so unless there's a massive difference in visual/game quality I don't know how MS are going to steal back that advantage. Are on paper specs really that influential? PS3 didn't benefit much from it. Go MS for pushing strong tech though, hopefully it pays off for them and triggers a greater arms race.

I guess it comes down to the games in the end and what 3rd parties can/will do with each respective hardware upgrade. The sales gap could also become an even bigger factor following a post-Neo PS4 price drop.
 

OuterLimits

Member
Hmm. I will probably just keep my original PS4 and buy a Scorpio next year since I don't own a X1 right now. I can play Microsoft exclusives and multiplats on the Scorpio and my current PS4 will be good enough for the Sony exclusives until the PS5.
 

gtj1092

Member
No, that's not what I'm saying. I actually said that if the console limit the game they should be dropped, for that game only.

Because battlefield demanding more than what ps360 were capable of pushing at decent framerates shouldn't limits the games that didn't like destiny, titan fall, call of duty and every other cross gen game that didn't had anything scaled back on last gen other than framerate or visuals.


But once you make exceptions for this game or that game what is the difference between what you say MS is promising versus what you say Sony is saying?
 

duhmetree

Member
So when do you think Sony will launch a Ps4 upgrade that is capable of 60 FPS open world gaming for enthusiasts ?

Neo is not looking good and it may delay Ps5 for another 3 years.

For once, MS making the correct technical steps by the look of things (assuming they put Zen in, Bandwidth and TF looks great).

If the cost/tech allows it, they could put the dagger into Microsoft and release 'PS5' in 2018.

I believe that as soon as zen+vega HBM 16GB is 'affordable' ( $399-499 ) we will see it. Holiday 2018 could be that time.
 
So when do you think Sony will launch a Ps4 upgrade that is capable of 60 FPS open world gaming for enthusiasts ?

Neo is not looking good and it may delay Ps5 for another 3 years.

For once, MS making the correct technical steps by the look of things (assuming they put Zen in, Bandwidth and TF looks great).

Neo won't delay PS5 IMO.
PS5 was coming around 2019\2020 no matter what .
Which is when i think another die shrink should be up and running .
 

Proelite

Member
If the cost/tech allows it, they could put the dagger into Microsoft and release 'PS5' in 2018.

I believe that as soon as zen+vega HBM 16GB is 'affordable' ( $399-499 ) we will see it. Holiday 2018 could be that time.

2018 we will still be stuck on 14nm / 16nm finfet. HBM won't help much with perf when you don't really need all the bandwidth since you'll still be limited by the amount of transistors you can pack on the APU.

If Navi and later AMD GPUs can have the high base clock of Nvidia parts you might be able to come out with something 50% better than Scorpio but that's not going put the dagger in anything.

Waiting till 10nm or even better 7nm is the way to go.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Durante said:
In any case, I'd first want to see the output of this type of temporal reconstruction, especially in what I presume to be failure cases (e.g. thin, moving structures).
That's not really a failure case for checker-board sample-coverage, and if we're talking geometrical details - you can preserve those 100% without shading-rate increase in some approaches.

On topic of image reconstruction and other similar methods on PC however - it tends to be dramatically more complex to maintain these algorithms in a resolution independant manner. And given that the PC user-response to the obvious outcome - such techniques significantly outperforming native rendering - has been almost uniformly negative to date, makes this a lose-lose proposition for most developers.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
In any case, I'd first want to see the output of this type of temporal reconstruction, especially in what I presume to be failure cases (e.g. thin, moving structures).
I haven't seen it first hand either, but in the Neo document, they're listing checkerboard rendering as an example approach they are advocating. It's what's been used in the new Rainbow 6 game. They are also specifically mentioning their own research into "Geometric rendering" (I don't know what that means in this context) which it says is something they are working on in an effort to lighten the load compared to a typical full framebuffer scenario.
 

Raylan

Banned
So when do you think Sony will launch a Ps4 upgrade that is capable of 60 FPS open world gaming for enthusiasts ?

Neo is not looking good and it may delay Ps5 for another 3 years.

For once, MS making the correct technical steps by the look of things (assuming they put Zen in, Bandwidth and TF looks great).
1. What?
2. Neo is looking good. Launching in 2016 for ~$399 is great
3. It won't delay anything.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
I haven't seen it first hand either, but in the Neo document, they re listing checkerboard rendering as an example approach they are advocating. It's what's been used in the new Rainbow 6 game.

I wonder if they are building off the tech they use in their X1 chip on their 4K sets. Sounds similar to what they show in their slides.

ktEzhgl.jpg


The 4K Processor X1 delivers ultra-lifelike detail, using new algorithms such as Noise Crusher, Flat Area Detection and Super Resolution. These advanced technologies work together to maintain natural-looking, low-noise image textures, and refined content both native and upscaled.

It truly makes a 1080p picture look native when side by side at viewing distance. I am more than happy with the 1080p picture from the PS4 on my Sony 4K set due to this, and have been a proponent to making graphical higher fidelity 1080p/60 games due to the crispness of the scaling, rather than try and push higher resolutions in comparison.

So I assume it is similar tech with a more under the hood in the API on the gaming side for textures, etc.?
 

Durante

Member
On topic of image reconstruction and other similar methods on PC however - it tends to dramatically more complex to maintain these algorithms in a resolution independant manner.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see why that would be the case. Care to explain?

I mean, sure, maybe you wouldn't want to support resolutions which aren't divisible by 4 or 8 or something like that (and I don't think anyone would mind that), but I really don't see where any more resolution dependence than that would enter the picture.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
At this point I just wish we wouldn't need to have this conversation per say because Sony would just fucking tell us what's what.

If indeed this shit is launching in less than 3 months it would be nice if Sony tried to sell us on the damn thing vs all this guessing and what ifs.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I haven't seen it first hand either, but in the Neo document, they're listing checkerboard rendering as an example approach they are advocating. It's what's been used in the new Rainbow 6 game. They are also specifically mentioning their own research into "Geometric rendering" (I don't know what that means in this context) which it says is something they are working on in an effort to lighten the load compared to a typical full framebuffer scenario.
Yeah curious about the geometric rendering. The slides say it was discussed at the initial disclosure meeting so it's possibly something integrated into the API.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
I wonder if they are building off the tech they use in their X1 chip on their 4K sets. Sounds similar to what they show in their slides.
No, the checkerboard rendering is something different. There was a document listed earlier in this thread that describes it in detail. From what I've read in DF analysis of R6, I think this type of rendering will be a huge win on 4K displays, where the ability to easily discern the detail on a pixel level is diminished.

As for Sony's X1 chip 4K upscaler, I've heard great things about it, but I can't help but wonder how much processing lag it introduces?
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
No, the checkerboard rendering is something different. There was a document listed earlier in this thread that describes it in detail. From what I've read in DF analysis of R6, I think this type of rendering will be a huge win on 4K displays, where the ability to easily discern the detail on a pixel level is diminished.

As for Sony's X1 chip 4K upscaler, I've heard great things about it, but I can't help but wonder how much processing lag it introduces?

Gotcha. Measured about 28ms on my set in Game Mode, so it is plenty playable, and in the realm of not noticing shit to be honest. And I came off a '1ms' AOC monitor.
 

truth411

Member
2018 we will still be stuck on 14nm / 16nm finfet. HBM won't help much with perf when you don't really need all the bandwidth since you'll still be limited by the amount of transistors you can pack on the APU.

If Navi and later AMD GPUs can have the high base clock of Nvidia parts you might be able to come out with something 50% better than Scorpio but that's not going put the dagger in anything.

Waiting till 10nm or even better 7nm is the way to go.

This. By holiday 2020/2021 we should have 7nm SOC + HBM3.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Chip shrinking is becoming harder. I think 7nm by 2020 is optimistic. Plus I think waiting for 2021 is waiting too long.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Durante said:
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see why that would be the case. Care to explain?
Image reconstruction from resolution X to Y. 1 case on console vs almost countless combinations on PC for performance and quality (and that's before we add different hardware into the mix).
Sure - we can make X:Y ratio always the same as on console, which makes math a non-issue, but that's also starting out by not making it resolution independent.

But fair enough - it's a question of making reasonable compromises before the code maintenance is a problem.
 

truth411

Member
Chip shrinking is becoming harder. I think 7nm by 2020 is optimistic. Plus I think waiting for 2021 is waiting too long.
I mentioned this before, but 7nm chips will be in the iPhone in 2018. 7nm GPUs won't be too far behind, by holiday 2020 7nm SOC is highly likely. HBM3 or "next gen memory" comes out in 2018.
4k hdtvs are at only 10% market penetration. In Holiday 2020 it will be around 50%, 2020/2021 is about the time that 4k console gaming will actually make sense. At 1080p with Max effects Neo games will look magnificent.
 

quest

Not Banned from OT
2018 we will still be stuck on 14nm / 16nm finfet. HBM won't help much with perf when you don't really need all the bandwidth since you'll still be limited by the amount of transistors you can pack on the APU.

If Navi and later AMD GPUs can have the high base clock of Nvidia parts you might be able to come out with something 50% better than Scorpio but that's not going put the dagger in anything.

Waiting till 10nm or even better 7nm is the way to go.

Completely agree with all of this. That is why I was telling people a 2018 PS5 would be such a mistake.

This is why I think Sony is making such a big mistake with the NEO. It is going to have to last 4-5 years until the next node shrink. They should of delayed the NEO till next year and upgraded the CPU to the Zen. I am not to worried about the GPU lasting 4 years it is the anemic CPU.
 
So Because Neo suck compared to Scorpio MS must be lying about the spec.

Entertaining :D

It doesn't suck, they are just trying to achieve their mid gen upgrade in a different way, and the specs as laid out here are very much improved over the current PS4, even if it isn't in all the ways people would have liked. This system won't be weak by any stroke of the imagination. We fall into the same trap each and every cycle, where just because something new is coming, we fail to appreciate all the things that have been blowing everyone's mind up to this point. Look at what devs accomplished already on xbox one and PS4. Look at Uncharted 4 and Quantum Break. We are dealing with a system now that, architecturally, will utilize its available resources far better than the PS4 ever could. As someone else mentioned, there has since been bandwidth saving features implemented that allow these newer AMD chips to get notably more from the available bandwidth that is there. In light of this, 218GB/s shouldn't be looked at as somehow not all that different from the 176GB/s in the PS4. The current PS4, if it possessed 218GB/s of memory bandwidth, couldn't come close to using it anywhere near to the same level of effectiveness that Neo will be capable of. So things really have to be kept in perspective. And even the overclock to the CPU isn't exactly some meaningless thing.

And we shouldn't take lightly the boost to the GPU. This thing is going to be more than twice as powerful as the current PS4. That's not insignificant. I think focus on scorpio is causing people to lose sight of some very basic realities. Neo isn't going to be some slouch.
 

Jumeira

Banned
Hmm. I will probably just keep my original PS4 and buy a Scorpio next year since I don't own a X1 right now. I can play Microsoft exclusives and multiplats on the Scorpio and my current PS4 will be good enough for the Sony exclusives until the PS5.
Prospect of GTA6 Scorpio has me weak in my knees (if Rockstar decide to release next year).
 

Proelite

Member
Completely agree with all of this. That is why I was telling people a 2018 PS5 would be such a mistake.

This is why I think Sony is making such a big mistake with the NEO. It is going to have to last 4-5 years until the next node shrink. They should of delayed the NEO till next year and upgraded the CPU to the Zen. I am not to worried about the GPU lasting 4 years it is the anemic CPU.

I think one year after a new fab is around the perfect time to release a console. In this case, 2017.

1. You get a somewhat mature and tested fab.
2. The node you'll on will be around for quite a while, meaning anything released in the next few years will still be within your ballpark.
 
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