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[Toadthemushroom]

Sure but I understood this thread is about if Microsoft decides to kill Win32 and make W10 a walled garden and what could happen, not about out of the blue changes that will happen if everything stays the same.

I don't think it's worth examining whether Microsoft "kills" win32 - win32 is here to stay, and one of the biggest reasons why is an easy one: enterprise.

It's the same reason Microsoft still recommends people use 32bit Office 2016 instead of the 64 bit version for "compatibility reasons", enterprise and compatibility with decades of older programs is one of Windows' greatest strengths. And Microsoft certainly recognises it.

 

[ScientificPizza]

It's saddens me that non-complacency seems to be the exception rather than the rule even on a forum like this. I dunno why, I just expected more.

non-complacency towards what? conspiracy theory's? worst case scenarios? baseless conjecture?

it's not complacent for people to not want to be digital doomsday preppers. sitting around being paranoid about things that are entirely out of your control is duuuuuuuumb. if you're really that worried about it there are other OS's than these

 

[Lanrutcon]

He's making some bold claims that seem kinda crazy.

But then, if you'd asked me 2 years ago if Microsoft would ever be desperate enough to spread their newest operating system that they'd give it out for free and install it without people's consent I'd have called you crazy too.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

But then, if you'd asked me 2 years ago if Microsoft would ever be desperate enough to spread their newest operating system that they'd give it out for free and install it without people's consent I'd have called you crazy too.

Eh, two years ago it was becoming pretty clear that Windows-as-a-service was the way forward, just like how games-as-a-service and apps-as-a-service and websites-as-a-service became the new norm years back. Microsoft had been transitioning their development processes from waterfalls to agile too, starting with enterprise and development software, then moving to Xbox, and then Windows.

Also see: ChromeOS, Android. I wouldn't call Google desperate for not charging for those OSes, it's just a new model of doing things. Whether you agree with it or not is another matter entirely though...

 

[Machina]

Yeah I'm sure Valve will just sit by and let this happen.....Idiot.

 

[Kayant]

I don't think it's worth examining whether Microsoft "kills" win32 - win32 is here to stay, and one of the biggest reasons why is an easy one: enterprise.

It's the same reason Microsoft still recommends people use 32bit Office 2016 instead of the 64 bit version for "compatibility reasons", enterprise and compatibility with decades of older programs is one of Windows' greatest strengths. And Microsoft certainly recognises it.

Enterprise is a different ball game which is why all the upgrade BS is non-existent. They could very well have compatibility in Enterprise and phase out it out in the consumer space if they want to.

Eh, two years ago it was becoming pretty clear that Windows-as-a-service was the way forward, just like how games-as-a-service and apps-as-a-service and websites-as-a-service became the new norm years back.

Also see: ChromeOS, Android. I wouldn't call Google desperate for not charging for those OSes, it's just a new model of doing things. Whether you agree with it or not is another matter entirely though...

That doesn't mean they need to have done all the BS with the upgrades. As a service doesn't mean forcibly installing software without user consent or actively making it hard for them choose whether or not to accept the service.

 

[KC Denton]

Maybe this will finally give Valve some motivation to not make SteamOS so TV-focused and more like something I actually want to install.

 

[bj00rn_]

What.The.Fuck

 

[LordRaptor]

Is this the same Epic Games fellow that jumped the gun by going to the press with all the issues he had with UWP right before Build when Microsoft started talking to developers and press about how those issues were being addressed?

No, its the Tim Sweeney who raised entirely legitimate concerns that were handwaved away with "wait for Build" and when Build rolled around literally none of those fucking concerns were addressed, and the handwave was replaced with "Wait for anniversary update"

Like, this thread basically says MS can basically do whatever the fuck they want because a sizable portion of people can't pay attention to whats actually happening, and even if they do remember some half-interpreted heavily nuanced headline from Thurrot, they'll have forgotten it in 6 months anyway if a different suit takes charge

 

[mitchman]

Slowly, over the next 5 years, they will force-patch Windows 10 to make Steam progressively worse and more broken. They'll never completely break it, but will continue to break it until, in five years, people are so fed up that Steam is buggy that the Windows Store seem like an ideal alternative. That's exactly what they did to their previous competitors in other areas. Now they're doing it to Steam. It's only just starting to become visible. Microsoft might not be competent enough to succeed with their plan but they are certainly trying.

He forgot to mention that when they pulled the dirty tricks on Netscape, they landed themselves in a world of trouble and were under surveillance until 2010 by the DoJ. Only Bush saved them from being broken up into multiple companies, Bell style. They are certainly capable of doing this, but it would cost them dearly.

 

[NXGamer]

He is a very intelligent guy and certainly a BIG influence in the PC market and games, his fears are founded and I am sure MS is following the same route as other companies, in that a walled garden with incentives to move are the norm, but his points seem a tad over zealous.

I think it is madness to think that Steam will simply sit still and not react to this though, I cannot see Gabe (a man that know MS from the inside out) to simply watch his Golden Goose crumble with "Ah dang! they got me!" sad cry.

UWP apps can be created by anyone and distributed on other stores, Win 10 cannot survive if NO-ONE makes applications for it, it is simply a suicidal approach to business. Yes they will try to make their own store/distribution the most attractive just like Apple/Google et al and some "underhand" tactics are always used but ultimately they need to make it easier to move over (and they are but more needs to be done). Steam pushed through a tough start to become the PC peoples champion and MS need to try hard to get any of that lunch, they just need to be kept 'honest' as do all companies.

 

[bj00rn_]

Maybe this will finally give Valve some motivation

What do you mean "this". "This" is tinfoil hatting from Sweeney that could even be interpreted as crossing over to mental illness territory. Whatever point Sweeney had (which I partly agreed with) about UWP is completely drowned in a ridiculous lunacy conspiracy theory. Disappointing.

 

[Infinite_Daremo]

Ive had Steam since it launched. You can't phase me. I've used it at its worst.

 

[Wollan]

Microsoft is sabotaging themselves worse so at this point. Windows Store (alongside a series of apps) won't even open on my Windows 10 machine.
Waiting for the anniversary update to hit before I seriously sit down and try to figure this out.

 

[LordRaptor]

What do you mean "this". "This" is tinfoil hatting from Sweeney that could even be interpreted as crossing over to mental illness territory.

The problem is that Microsoft has such a long history of corporate malfeasance that persists to this very day, that it is extremely hard not to sound like a tinfoil hat lunatic just by listing actual things that they have done.

 

[kiguel182]

Yeah, alot has changed since the 1990's. Let alone the damage this would cause with Valve which could lead to no future Valve game's on the Xbox platform and all other legal ramifications.

Yeah, how would Xbox survive without Valves games....

 

[Occam]

After reading the first page of this thread, you'd have to believe some form of mass amnesia has swept through humanity for the long and damning history that precedes Microsoft to suddenly go forgotten.

I call this "goldfish memory syndrome". Many Microsoft fans are afflicted.

 

[Widge]

Maybe this will finally give Valve some motivation to not make SteamOS so TV-focused and more like something I actually want to install.

I think they are quite keen on this regardless.

I'd be interested to see some stats on additions to the SteamOS catalogue - to see if it is incrementally increasing, stagnating, declining.

[SELF ANSWERED: https://steamdb.info/linux/ - looks steady, I've not looked into the calibre of game though]

It's a big jump to go from "massive games catalogue" to "limited game catalogue" for many.

 

[Gattsu25]

After reading the first page of this thread, you'd have to believe some form of mass amnesia has swept through humanity for the long and damning history that precedes Microsoft to suddenly go forgotten.

Yeah, it's like people are ignorant of the past and refuse to learn about it.

 

[kruis]

1) I thought it was already established that you don't need to go through the windows store to distribute UWP?

2) Ms can't remove w32 support in 5 years. There are thousands and thousands of apps that may never get updated to UWP and you can't simply make them incompatible

They likely want to encourage developers to move towards UWP, and there are some advantages to that. But that's about the only part that rings true and doesn't sound paranoid and hyperbolic

The Win32 / .net APIs are legacy code for MS, all they're currently working on is WinRT / UWP. It could come to a point that if developers want the latest, greatest Windows 10 features on PC and Xbox, they have no choice but to create UWP games.

The biggest thing that should worry people is the fact that Windows 10 is free. Which means that MS needs to find other ways to monetize Windows 10. They can only do that by having people buy stuff on the Windows 10 app store.

 

[Sad Affleck]

Valve should be more concerned about this. Now that Microsoft has set its eyes on Windows gaming I think it's only a matter of time until they start leveraging Windows to their advantage.

 

[dracula_x]

Maybe this will finally give Valve some motivation to not make SteamOS so TV-focused and more like something I actually want to install.

I don't see problem here - just install any other Linux distributive. SteamOS is basically Debian with installed Steam client.

 

[nynt9]

I call this "goldfish memory syndrome". Many Microsoft fans are afflicted.

I think some people interact with Microsoft only in a (console) gaming capacity and thus aren't necessarily aware of the company's other efforts historically. They're (from the perspective of those fans) good to gamers, so they can't do anything bad, right? That's a common cognitive dissonance bias.

I don't know if MS are actually planning on doing this, but given their past and current efforts it seems totally believable to me that they would want to do this. They have the means and have demonstrated the willingness to be aggressively anti-competitive. I've always thought that MS could be a lot scarier as a company if they were actually competent and dedicated, and they seem to more dedicated towards PC gaming these days. Whether they think this one is a battle they can win, who knows. But what Tim is saying isn't too far fetched to believe.

 

[xrnzaaas]

This is actually a conspiracy theory I could see turning into a reality. Obviously Valve would quickly start making accusations if they were sabotaged, but I can see Microsoft responding that the problems are on the Valve's side. BUT for this thing to work they would need to invent a new masterplan on how to install Win10 on every machine on the face of the planet (the free upgrade wasn't as successful as they hoped) and they would also have to build a proper Windows store instead of trying to improve the current shitty one.

 

[JaggedSac]

What do you mean "this". "This" is tinfoil hatting from Sweeney that could even be interpreted as crossing over to mental illness territory. Whatever point Sweeney had (which I partly agreed with) about UWP is completely drowned in a ridiculous lunacy conspiracy theory. Disappointing.

Nah, MS has interns randomly placing Sleeps in Win32 APIs as we speak.

 

[UKUMI0]

The biggest thing that should worry people is the fact that Windows 10 is free. Which means that MS needs to find other ways to monetize Windows 10. They can only do that by having people buy stuff on the Windows 10 app store.

Windows 10 is only free for about a week. After that it returns to a paid OS. That being said, Windows 10 is the last Windows OS and I'm pretty sure all future updates will be free, at least for the foreseeable future.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Enterprise is a different ball game which is why all the upgrade BS is non-existent. They could very well have compatibility in Enterprise and phase out it out in the consumer space if they want to.

That doesn't mean they need to have done all the BS with the upgrades. As a service doesn't mean forcibly installing software without user consent or actively making it hard for them choose whether or not to accept the service.

I agree actually, but it means that compatibility with win32 programs will remain constant, since MS isn't going to risk breaking other win32 programs in a supposed attempt to break Steam (based on what Tim Sweeney has suggested they will do).

As for your second reply, I agree too. I don't agree with how Microsoft is doing things (pushing updates and content adverts to the user, monetising search etc), and have remained on Windows 8.1 because of it. I just can't say I'm surprised that this has become the norm.

Apple can rely on profitable hardware sales which are 100% tied to OS adoption (the macOS app Store is still unloved and Apple lets developers sign their apps without needing to publish on the store), Microsoft can't. And won't in the second case.

 

[Trup1aya]

Did Sweeny get a leak of MS plans, or is he still running of speculation?

It was back in March when he said "I have no knowledge of a conspiracy, just a fear". Now he's talkin like its gospel.

I think his just wants credit for pressuring MS away from this path, even if they aren't on it.

 

[kiguel182]

Yeah, it's like people are ignorant of the past and refuse to learn about it.

Worst is people insulting Sweeney like what he is describing his something only a delusional person would say. This thread is crazy.

Even if this isn't or doesn't happen is concerns are more than valid given Microsofts history and their current intentions.

 

[michaelius]

I don't think it's worth examining whether Microsoft "kills" win32 - win32 is here to stay, and one of the biggest reasons why is an easy one: enterprise.

It's the same reason Microsoft still recommends people use 32bit Office 2016 instead of the 64 bit version for "compatibility reasons", enterprise and compatibility with decades of older programs is one of Windows' greatest strengths. And Microsoft certainly recognises it.

Microsoft has already started blocking new features from win 32 and making them UWP only when it comes to gaming.

They won't kill it - they will stop developing it and give "incentives" to companies to release UWP stuff.

 

[iNvid02]

win32 isn't going anywhere, all they will do is create some uwp specific directX features a few years down the line to entice devs and gamers to shift over

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Did Sweeny get a leak of MS plans, or is he still running of speculation?

It was back in March when he said "I have no knowledge of a conspiracy, just a fear". Now he's talkin like its gospel.

I think his just wants credit for pressuring MS away from this path, even if they aren't on it.

Wait for Build !!!

win32 isn't going anywhere, all they will do is create some uwp specific directX features a few years down the line to entice devs and gamers to shift over

It is though, not in the near future of course but it's going to happen gradually.

 

[bj00rn_]

The problem is that Microsoft has such a long history of corporate malfeasance that persists to this very day, that it is extremely hard not to sound like a tinfoil hat lunatic just by listing actual things that they have done.

That I understand, in some cases historically there's a lot of truth in it, and for some people selectively piecing together a pre-selected narrative is also a popular hobby. But it's 2016 now, the transparency in the scene is too strong, MS' days of doing what they've done in the past is long gone, they are not in the driver's seat in this case, and too dependent on an active and innovative scene. So for those of us that are level-headed, somewhat neutral and fact-driven it's frustrating to see intellectuals going all in on the conspiracy theories.

 

[Fardeen]

apple does this every year with new iphone release. it wont suprise me if microsoft does thta. 5 years from now who knows whats gonna happ

 

[Rourkey]

The thought that Microsoft would basically break windows in order to take some business away from steam is hilarious.

 

[LordRaptor]

MS' days of doing what they've done in the past is long gone

Except, the problem really is that those days are not long gone.
They're still doing illegitimate patent shakedowns on OEMs like they did in the bad old Linux days, they just switched targets to Android.
They're still funding proxy-war lobbyists against their competitors.
They're still withholding access to APIs to competitors to promote their own products.

The thought that Microsoft would basically break windows in order to take some business away from steam is hilarious.

It's not funny at all

 

[JodokusK]

That first page... yeesh.

Good to at least see SOME people know their history.

Those who defend MS in all their ignorance saying things like "they would never", come off to me like people who try to disprove a plausible hypothesis presented by a (let's say) Neil Degrasse Tyson saying there might be alien life on Earth.

"DUHR, alien life on Earth, what is this, Men In Black?"

At least listen to the man who does this for a living at the highest level, successfully. MAYBE there's something going on that you don't know of, some reason, some history...

But no, don't research or read up or take the time to see things from a different perspective, go with the gut feeling of "DERP ILLUMINATI CRAZY PERSON."

I hoped we were mostly past the whole 'looking down on intelligence'-thing, especially on a gaming forum, but I guess occasions like these are perfect for that 'nice' human trait to rear its head.

 

[leeh]

No, its the Tim Sweeney who raised entirely legitimate concerns that were handwaved away with "wait for Build" and when Build rolled around literally none of those fucking concerns were addressed, and the handwave was replaced with "Wait for anniversary update"

Like, this thread basically says MS can basically do whatever the fuck they want because a sizable portion of people can't pay attention to whats actually happening, and even if they do remember some half-interpreted heavily nuanced headline from Thurrot, they'll have forgotten it in 6 months anyway if a different suit takes charge

There's concerns about functionality in your platform and then there's deliberate sabotage.

No one is saying they can do whatever they want. If this was happening, everyone knows that everyone would be screaming murder with their pitchforks out. There's cause for concern, but there's zero evidence of this with Steam, and until there is we should take one guys tinfoil-hat fueled thoughts with a light pinch of salt.

Also, a lot changes in a company when they get a complete new management structure. We're not in the 90's anymore guys, the Netscape story you're talking about happened 20 years ago...

 

[Trup1aya]

Its weird how so many people seem to push back against this when it seems fairly obvious. Its what any public trading company would do in microsoft's position and I have little doubt it is also what microsoft will try to do. And hopefully fail, naturally.

Not really pushback. Just reluctance to jump to conclusion without evidence. It's been 20 years since MS nuked Netscape. Since then, MS has allowed numerous competitors to thrive on Windows without interference. Chrome, Firefox, iTunes, and Google to name a few.

At some point "they did it before, they'll do it again" isn't enough of an argument. Saying these things without a shred of evidence is just ignorant. He's gone from telling a cautionary tale, to being a whistleblower w/o the documentation.

 

[Mufausa The 3rd]

People joke about this,but MS did this on the past, so is not rare for them to try again.

I agree. This isn't some Alien conspiracy shit. This could be legit.

 

[Durante]

That I understand, in some cases historically there's a lot of truth in it, and for some people selectively piecing together a pre-selected narrative is also a popular hobby. But it's 2016 now, the transparency in the scene is too strong, MS' days of doing what they've done in the past is long gone

These happened in 2016:

This is literally happening on my PC right now.

Had all my video/audio associations set to Media Player Classic, but then all of a sudden everything got switched to MS's Groove player.

MPC wouldn't even show up when setting default apps; I had to completely uninstall and reinstall the software.

MS is shady as fuck.

I don't if they'd do it this way, but they have form for this kind of thing. Going back a long way (DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run) or the new Windows 10 warning that pops up if you're using Chrome or Firefox to say they're power inefficient and you should use Edge:

Microsoft was also convicted of installing an unwanted upgrade to Windows 10. In 2016.

I honestly wish that "the transparency in the scene was too strong", but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[slavesnyder]

Phil would never allow this.

 

[mitchman]

Google, Apple & Mozilla all joined together to make open standards for browsers pretty sure, to avoid this very thing.

The main reason competing middleware is thriving on Windows is due to DoJs very strict and close surveillance of the MS business practices. Yes, I've worked for a browser manufacturer and been in meeting with DoJ (represented by The Technical Committee) and VP-level Microsoft people where the DoJ explicitly asked us if we've been given all the information needed from MS to be able to compete with them. I have no doubt that if DoJ (and EU) didn't do this, Microsoft would do whatever they could to block competing middleware.

Not really pushback. Just reluctance to jump to conclusion without evidence. It's been 20 years since MS nuked Netscape. Since then, MS has allowed numerous competitors to thrive on Windows without interference. Chrome, Firefox, iTunes, and Google to name a few.

At some point "they did it before, they'll do it again" isn't enough of an argument. Saying these things without a shred of evidence is just ignorant. He's gone from telling a cautionary tale, to being a whistleblower w/o the documentation.

See above. Microsoft did not "allow" those competitors, they were forced to level the playing field.

 

[LordRaptor]

Also, a lot changes in a company when they get a complete new management structure.

You know how you start to change corporate culture?
You hire externally for management positions.

You know how you retain corporate culture?
You promote long term employees from the existing management pool.

Which of the two have MS done?
Why do you think that significantly changes corporate culture?

 

[Irminsul]

Microsoft was also convicted of installing an unwanted upgrade to Windows 10. In 2016.

Yes, and they might as well try their anti-competitive best again and bribe publishers to stay off Steam.

That they will try and actively "ruin" an ugly, buggy piece of software that isn't even using APIs available for a few years (hello, high-DPI support) is conspiracy-level stuff. And that's what Sweeney's talking about here, not the former.

 

[amdb00mer]

This honestly seems like boogeyman nonsense.

MS is going to actively deter people away from one of the major reason they use Win10. Sure.

I agree with iavi. I used to respect Tim Sweeney, but this whole anti-MS and anti-Win10 nonsense has to go. MS will not purposely break steam. Last thing MS wants is another anti-trust lawsuit. They're not trying to close off windows and lock down games.
Are they aggressively trying to get some people and developers to switch to the windows store? Absolutely. I believe Phil and Satya had an agreement that he would support Phil and Xbox, but in return they have to offer Xbox games on the windows store to try and raise the value of the store. That's why games that are 100% owned by MS will not make it to steam, or at least not right away.

 

[TBiddy]

See above. Microsoft did not "allow" those competitors, they were forced to level the playing field.

Microsoft has never been forced to allow iTunes, various Google-applications, Steam and what have you.

Windows is an open system, which is why it's popular. The competitors applications exists because it's an open system (or in the case of browsers, because of a DoJ-ruling).

edit: If Tim Sweeney has any proof that Microsoft is actively undermining Steam via Windows Updates, I'd suggest he contacts the DoJ, asap. Making baseless allegations like this, just makes him seem like a great candidate for a History Channel show.

"Steam crashing? MICROSOFT!" - "iTunes is being shitty again? MICROSOFT!".

 

[leeh]

These happened in 2016:


Microsoft was also convicted of installing an unwanted upgrade to Windows 10. In 2016.

I honestly wish that "the transparency in the scene was too strong", but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Really don't like that. That's shady. Although the media thing I understand, as it's depreciated these days. Although, with pushing services, we need to ensure we don't have double standards. For example, Google have been pushing Chrome on it's homepage ever since they released it if you use something else.

You know how you start to change corporate culture?
You hire externally for management positions.

You know how you retain corporate culture?
You promote long term employees from the existing management pool.

Which of the two have MS done?
Why do you think that significantly changes corporate culture?

As much as I agree, it's not as white and black as you state. Considering we've got things like native Ubuntu on Windows, open-sourced .NET etc.

Then you also got all the Xbox changes, which completely changed vision, due to a new division head.

 

[Elandyll]

The thought that Microsoft would basically break windows in order to take some business away from steam is hilarious.

Given MS's long history ... Not that much of a stretch frankly.

 

[Coreda]

He's a remarkably smart and talented individual with a lot of foresight.

"No prophet is accepted in his own town." - Book of Sweeney 4:86

Wake up sheeple. One day your Steam will be slow as syrupy molasses. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow. Perhaps not next year. Or maybe even the year after that. But you can count on it.