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[Durante]

People are surprisingly blind to this shit. All MS needs to do is make DirectX progressively worse on Win10 for Win32 to enable a lot of the shit that is being discussed in the OP.

That doesn't mess with vast majority of their Corp customers but will make gaming on non UWP platforms (GoG, Steam, Origin, Ubisoft, etc...) progressively worse. And yes, MS can deprecate older APIs.

As far as competitors MS have done this to? There are many in the business line Netscape, Novell, etc... MS is notorious for taking public APIs and making them just enough different for 3rd party shit not to work or work badly. Heck, Kerberos is a good example that wasn't truly fixed till Server 2008 R2 I think. Even now they take SAML 2.0 and put some proprietary shit in their ADFS model.

So yeah, I can absolutely see MS trying to pull this one. It would really be targetting closed system Apple-Google like model with UWP. Gaming would be just a drive by.

That's the most infuriating thing about it.

Inconveniencing gamers on Windows and actively endangering the future of unrestricted modding and preservation of games is one thing. Doing so to prop up your failing business in completely different sectors is something else.

 

[Skoen]

Well, Microsoft is a corporation, and as all other corporations, they seek to maximise profits. And while it's theoretically possible, that Microsoft would break Steam over the next five years, why would they?

As for Windows 10, I agree. It's was too much.

They don´t really seem to act with any kind of internal logic and are completely out of touch with their audience and customers the last years.

Well, let´s see how it all turns out.

It's one thing to say Microsoft COULD do something like this, its another thing entirely to say they ARE doing it, which is what Tim is saying.

That might be the one thing were he went a bit overboard.

 

[MaulerX]

It's one thing to say Microsoft COULD do something like this, its another thing entirely to say they ARE doing it, which is what Tim is saying.

Exactly. I don't have a problem with people saying they COULD do it. Of course they can. But Sweeney is talking very matter of factly saying they ARE currently doing it and doesn't sound like he's speculating, but like he got a hold of MS's internal document for the next 5 years and knows this for a fact.

 

[LordRaptor]

That's the most infuriating thing about it.

Inconveniencing gamers on Windows and actively endangering the future of unrestricted modding and preservation of games is one thing. Doing so to prop up your failing business in completely different sectors is something else.

 

[leeh]

You don't see a difference between overlays being bugged on some games, and overlays not working at all on any UWA title by design?

And I'm not talking about just the shift+tab overlay 'menu' screen - I am talking about all overlay features, like online notifications, achievement unlocks, game invites, etc.
They do not work anymore when playing a W10 store title.

By design? They literally promised overlay support at Build. A 10 second google search of "Steam Overlay UWP" gives it you on the first page, you care so much to spend your time in threads like this spreading your hate for UWP, but not enough to do a quick google search of things they announced in March?

 

[TBiddy]

Well, now we know who on GAF was alive during the 90s.

Oh please. Get off your high horse.

As many have said before me, it is *completely* plausible, based on Microsoft's history, that they would want to do this.

Again, read what he said. He said that Microsoft was already actively making Steam more buggy by force-patching Windows 10, yet he (or anyone else) has yet to provide any evidence for that claim.

They don´t really seem to act with any kind of internal logic and are completely out of touch with their audience and customers the last years.

Well, let´s see how it all turns out.

Absolutely agree. They have been making many weird decisions throughout their history. But actively ruining Steam and thus risking another anti-trust case? I doubt even Ballmer would be that stupid. And Nadella even less so.

 

[The Jackdog]

Lol, tim sweeny is now just a microsoft truther.

He sounds like alex jones. NO REALLY. CHEMTRAILS. LOOK IT UP. THEY ARE IN YOUR XBOX. MICROSOFT WILL PROGRESSIVELY ADD THEM IN.

Theres not a shred of evidence microsoft is doing any of the sort.

i love the "its totally possible" posts.

You know what else is totally possible? Sony makes the ps5 aimed only at toddlers. Nintendo's next console attaches directly to your eyeballs. Like cmon people. Saying "ITS POSSIBLE" doesnt mean shit.

 

[Durante]

By design? They literally promised overlay support in Build.

I'm very curious what comes of that. I hope they don't mean something silly like simply composing another window on top of a running game.

The type of "overlay" support that Steam provides for Win32 games -- with features such as Steam controller mapping or content streaming -- basically requires exactly the type of unrestricted interoperability that UWP is designed to prevent. (the same is true for other tools, like e.g. Mumble positional audio; or GeDoSaTo)

 

[Cynar]

Again, he says they are breaking Steam right this minute through forced updates. Microsoft are currently making Steam progressively worse on Windows 10, that's his claim. Lack of trigger rumble support (because they never backported support to win32) or overlays not working on certain non-Steam games doesn't remotely qualify. (It's rare, but I own actual Steam games which haven't worked with the Steam overlay too.) For his argument to be true then in some way Steam has to be worse on Windows 10 right now, in July, then it was back in January.

That hasn't been my experience, and I think if this has been happening to a bunch of other Steam users there would have been plenty of GAF talk about it already.

(Again, willing to admit I could be 100% wrong, but I want actual evidence first.)

It is UWA doesn't support overlays and kills steam community features and win 32 is being treated as legacy and missing new features to push windows 10. You can't be blind to this really.

 

[Walshicus]

Will there be ever Steam on Xbox? No. Will Xbox and Windows merge one day? Yes.


Microsoft wants to earn money if people play on a Windows PC and they certainly don't want Valve to have that money.

Microsoft wants to keep Windows dominant in the PC space, and isn't going to degrade a competitor and force a pretty high fraction of its users to alternative platforms to get a slice of the Store Front pie.

The only way they can win there is to keep improving their own offering.

I think people massively underestimate how much Microsoft knows the landscape has never been more suitable for OS migration.

 

[deadscreensky]

You don't see a difference between overlays being bugged on some games, and overlays not working at all on any UWA title by design?

And I'm not talking about just the shift+tab overlay 'menu' screen - I am talking about all overlay features, like online notifications, achievement unlocks, game invites, etc.
They do not work anymore when playing a W10 store title.

I know what you're talking about, I find it pretty frustrating in Killer Instinct and Forza Apex. But it's an enormous stretch to suggest MS is deliberately sabotaging Steam here. Are they also sabotaging Nvidia too because Shadowplay doesn't play nicely with UWPs? I was also pretty sure MS said this was something they were going to fix -- technical incompetence isn't the same thing as corporate sabotage, right? -- but maybe I heard wrong.

Steam itself is still 100% unaffected. Again, where are the forced updates which have made Steam buggier? Killer Instinct might be a really cool game that I wish worked through the Steam interface, but there's nothing mandatory about it.

EDIT: And as aside to some of the other posters who love to take us "kids" to task for our naivety, yes, we know MS has done this before. If you were around back during the 90s browsers wars you also know Microsoft got severely hurt because of these illegal actions. Suggesting MS has so much to gain by hurting Steam that they would risk this again strikes me as probably slightly more naive than the Phil Spencer fanboys...

 

[Morinaga]

I dont get why alot of people think this some guy on some sort of Acid trip.

MS have come under criticism for lots of things, some really far fetched.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft

Come to think of it, so have a lot of massive corporations. In fact I think its the norm, not the exception.

I mean look at Enron, who cut off electricity just to jack up demand and prices, and then cooked the books on top of that. ok they got found out and shit went sideways, but the point is what Mr tim Sweeney is saying is a very real possibility, and to dismiss it is just ignorant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron

 

[TBiddy]

I know what you're talking about, I find it pretty frustrating in Killer Instinct and Forza Apex. But it's an enormous stretch to suggest MS is deliberately sabotaging Steam here. Are they also sabotaging Nvidia too because Shadowplay doesn't play nicely with UWPs? I was also pretty sure MS said this was something they were going to fix -- technical incompetence isn't the same thing as corporate sabotage, right? -- but maybe I heard wrong.

Hanlon's Razor, my man.

 

[JaggedSac]

I absolutely hate the 'supported method' of changing default apps in Win 10. All apps can do is open up the 'default apps' page of the settings, and from that point the user is on their own, and they have to manually search the list of media types and deselect the 'Recommended for Windows 10' option. Also funny how these are in alphabetical order, so 'Web Browser' - by far the most common default people are going to want to change - is at the bottom and so needs to be scrolled down to before you can see it.

Obviously, none of that is a problem for tech-savvy people like us, but for a company that is so big on friction-less UX, it's funny how a whole bunch of friction suddenly appears when you want to do something they don't approve of, and it's enough to scare a lot of people off.

Well, all I can say is that VLC has been my default media player on my Windows 10 install since install. So either the VLC devs or I did something right, lol. Granted, it did pop up a dialog at some point saying that there was an issue with .m3u file associations so it would be defaulted to Groove(not all media file associations were then defaulted, just .m3u, one can check this by going to file type associations). Those MS sneak fucks and their attempts to monopolize the .m3u format.

 

[hooijdonk17]

I know what you're talking about, I find it pretty frustrating in Killer Instinct and Forza Apex. But it's an enormous stretch to suggest MS is deliberately sabotaging Steam here. Are they also sabotaging Nvidia too because Shadowplay doesn't play nicely with UWPs? I was also pretty sure MS said this was something they were going to fix -- technical incompetence isn't the same thing as corporate sabotage, right? -- but maybe I heard wrong.

Steam itself is still 100% unaffected. Again, where are the forced updates which have made Steam buggier? Killer Instinct might be a really cool game that I wish worked through the Steam interface, but there's nothing mandatory about it.

Nvidia has no reason not to move their software to UWP if Win32 software continue to become increasingly incompatible with UWP games (ie. get Extinguished). Steam can not move to UWP and survive. Your comparison is absurd.

 

[LeleSocho]

The faster PC gaming moves on an agnostic platform like linux the better.

 

[LordRaptor]

By design? They literally promised overlay support at Build. A 10 second google search of "Steam Overlay UWP" gives it you on the first page, you care so much to spend your time in threads like this spreading your hate for UWP, but not enough to do a quick google search of things they announced in March?

A lot of things were promised at Build that don't fucking exist 4 months later.
If pointing out empty and unfulfilled promises is "spreading hate" what do you call blindly defending PR statements?
Why, in fact, if you are not a PC gamer is it so important to tell people who are that things they are actively losing are no big deal because it is all part of Microsofts glorious 5 year plan?

e:

But it's an enormous stretch to suggest MS is deliberately sabotaging Steam here.

I literally said it was possible accidental, but intentions don't actually matter when the end result is the friends list that most Pc gamers use now no longer works.
It is a NET LOSS for Pc gamers. There is NO GAIN.

 

[leeh]

I'm very curious what comes of that. I hope they don't mean something silly like simply composing another window on top of a running game.

The type of "overlay" support that Steam provides for Win32 games -- with features such as Steam controller mapping or content streaming -- basically requires exactly the type of unrestricted interoperability that UWP is designed to prevent. (the same is true for other tools, like e.g. Mumble positional audio; or GeDoSaTo)

I hope they don't half arse it. It doesn't effect me personally, but they really need to be putting the money where their mouth is if they wish to gain more support with UWP.

 

[irrotational]

Does anyone also remember the giant anti-trust legal shennanigans with the European Union over bundling IE, and making it the default browser?

It's less likely that gaming on it's own would push the EU into action, but trying to lock all windows users into an MS run store certainly would.

IMHO MS would be nervous of a big lawsuit like that, rumbling on for years.

As an intermediate step, if it got bad, Valve could lodge anti-competition lawsuits based on specific practices. They would/will fight tooth and nail to protect their main income stream.

 

[deadscreensky]

Hanlon's Razor, my man.

Amen to that!

I understand the fears, I really do. I share them myself. But there's a huge jump between being wary for the future and Steam being sabotaged through forced updates right this minute.

 

[kiguel182]

Having legacy support for enterprises and progressively dropping it on the Home edition seems like the most logical path to take for MS.

They want a closed platform for home consumers. This should be pretty obvious for anyone who is paying attention.

 

[Sydle]

Sweeney himself tweeted about any CA root domain being able to sign and distribute UWP's. Why does he suggest in this interview that the plan is you can get them only from the MS store?

Anyway, if this is MS's plan then let them get on with it already so they can burn us and we have a real reason to move on from Windows. Enough of the conspiracies.

 

[Gruso]

A tiny thing that bugs me in Win10 is the inability to customise tiles. Win10 apps get nice icons and live tiles, but Win32 shortcuts get crappy old icons on a background colour of Windows' choosing. No ability to create your own beautiful tile menu; if you want it looking nice, use store apps.

There were utilities like OblyTile in Win8 to tweak this, but it appears completely locked down in Win10. If you're running crusty old Win32 apps, you get a crusty old menu.

Like I said, it's a tiny, tiny thing. But it also demonstrates what he is talking about. Non-store apps are already second class citizens. How many other little inconsequential things will seep in to remind us that store apps are better? What happens when they begin to compound?

I believe him, and evidently Gabe Newell does too.

 

[LordRaptor]

It doesn't effect me personally

Then could you please stop coming into threads where people are directly affected personally and calling people with actual legimate grievances and concerns "haters" and "fanboys"?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

A lot of things were promised at Build that don't fucking exist 4 months later.
If pointing out empty and unfulfilled promises is "spreading hate" what do you call blindly defending PR statements?
Why, in fact, if you are not a PC gamer is it so important to tell people who are that things they are actively losing are no big deal because it is all part of Microsofts glorious 5 year plan?

You realise that the Windows 10 anniversary update is coming on August 2? OS development isn't exactly easy, especially if you are targeting several 100 million PCs. You can't just hack a few lines of code together and just release it, they need to do tons of testing.

 

[LordRaptor]

You realise that the Windows 10 anniversary update is coming on August 2? OS development isn't exactly easy, especially if you are targeting several 100 million PCs.

That it takes nearly half a year to make minor usability patches to a digital storefront is telling in and of itself.

 

[Chabbles]

This honestly seems like boogeyman nonsense.

MS is going to actively deter people away from one of the major reason they use Win10. Sure.

But the article isnt suggesting that MS do it over night, but slowly and gradually over 5 years as people become more and more attached to the OS they use. And in the end it'l just be easier to use windows store rather than going back to windows 7 or 8.

Not saying i believe the guy, but MS are shady and it wouldn't be surprising.

 

[Durante]

You realise that the Windows 10 anniversary update is coming on August 2? OS development isn't exactly easy, especially if you are targeting several 100 million PCs.

I'm greatly looking forward to see how this update will enable the full Steam overlay functionality, Mumble positional audio, and GeDoSaTo support for programs distributed as UWP.

 

[othersteve]

Slowly, over the next 5 years, they will force-patch Windows 10 to make Steam progressively worse and more broken. They'll never completely break it, but will continue to break it until, in five years, people are so fed up that Steam is buggy that the Windows Store seem like an ideal alternative. That's exactly what they did to their previous competitors in other areas. Now they're doing it to Steam. It's only just starting to become visible. Microsoft might not be competent enough to succeed with their plan but they are certainly trying.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to see this as plausible. Considering that a significant number of people use Windows PCs because of gaming potential, this is essentially a suicide note for Microsoft if so... at least, as it applies to this segment of the population. They would surely recognize that such techniques would instead increase the viability of competing platforms instead of encourage people to abandon Steam as a distribution channel altogether.

I call BS somewhere.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

I dont get why alot of people think this some guy on some sort of Acid trip.

MS have come under criticism for lots of things, some really far fetched.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft

Come to think of it, so have a lot of massive corporations. In fact I think its the norm, not the exception.

I mean look at Enron, who cut off electricity just to jack up demand and prices, and then cooked the books on top of that. ok they got found out and shit went sideways, but the point is what Mr tim Sweeney is saying is a very real possibility, and to dismiss it is just ignorant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron

Anything is a possibility. To speak about it like its a matter of fact is where it gets silly

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

This is actually happening guys. Microsoft is locking down Win32 in the name of security and OS integrity, as well as an interest to push people toward the App Store.

Microsoft is pushing developers to virtualize Win32 applications in AppX packages (Project Centennial, etc.), and it's very easy to see a future where Microsoft requires developers to either virtualize Win32 apps, use UWP, or have issues with native Win32 installs.

The only leap here is that downloading AppX packages through the Windows Store will be the only option.

 

[TBiddy]

Then could you please stop coming into threads where people are directly affected personally and calling people with actual legimate grievances and concerns "haters" and "fanboys"?

How many people in this thread are directly affected by the impulse triggers on the XB1 controller not working in win32-games, and can it be considered an actual legitimate grievance?

 

[wesleyshark]

Timfoil Sweeney

 

[Sophist]

I give my full support to Tim Sweeney.

 

[leeh]

A lot of things were promised at Build that don't fucking exist 4 months later.
If pointing out empty and unfulfilled promises is "spreading hate" what do you call blindly defending PR statements?
Why, in fact, if you are not a PC gamer is it so important to tell people who are that things they are actively losing are no big deal because it is all part of Microsofts glorious 5 year plan?

When they released V-Sync, they said we're still working on overlays and it'll be out in the near future.

Every single feature they've promised so far for UWP and even in the Xbox has come to light. I commend them for doing this, although more functionality should of been present from the get-go. Yet, I also understand that something like this takes a long time to get right.

I'm not telling you that you're wrong for being annoyed of the lack of these things, but you've literally just made out that they've not done overlays deliberately due to what was discussed in the OP.

You used this as an example as this already occurring, when the simple fact is that, you're wrong.

 

[BeforeU]

ya right. The man who knows everything.

 

[Risk Breaker]

Step 1: you describe Win32 as 'legacy' support (has already happened)
Step 2: you do not provide features in newer API revisions for Win32 (has already happened)
Step 3: you make legacy code support a Pro only feature and remove access in Home editions of Windows (LOLLOLOLOLOLOL TINFOIL HATZ)

Yeah. I don't know why people are dissing Sweeney here. MS has a history of doing similar things and the writing has been on the wall for a while.

I guess when people celebrate having control over v-sync and overlays as if it was a great feature and not something BASIC as fuck, there's a problem.

 

[LordRaptor]

How many people in this thread are directly affected by the impulse triggers on the XB1 controller not working in win32-games, and can it be considered an actual legitimate grievance?

I gave that as an example of MS actively making win32 access to DX12 APIs inferior to UWAs access to the exact same APIs, as evidence that "that would never happen, tinfoil hats lolololol" has in fact happened in a real world scenario.

Yes, I'm sure that someone who bought an X1 controller on the assumption that trigger rumble being a listed feature that is now denied to them for arbitrary MS internal political reasons has a legitimate grievance about that.

e:

you've literally just made out that they've not done overlays deliberately

I explicitly said that that was possibly accidental, so if you would like to discuss this I would appreciate if:
1) you read the actual fucking words I type
2) you stop with the ad hominems and strawmen

 

[Netherscourge]

Windows will never work as a Walled Garden.

 

[John_B]

It's a good thing. Nobody will give a damn about a Steam OS before Windows has regressed to a state that gamers don't find appealing.

An OS that is entirely focused around video games could progress at a much higher pace and have a bunch of native support and UI that is much simpler and easier to use with controllers.

Valve won't succeed though if they go all walls up and don't allow Blizzard and others to distribute their games on equal footing.

 

[gofreak]

I'm greatly looking forward to see how this update will enable the full Steam overlay functionality, Mumble positional audio, and GeDoSaTo support for programs distributed as UWP.

UWP was already interfering with Steam Overlay?

Well, that right there might be evidence that MS is already doing this, for those who were asking for something to back up that particular claim, that MS had started doing this.

I posited earlier that things like overlay functionality could be targeted given that they depend on API shimming (I guess) - while you could argue they are not breaking this for Win32 games, it's not a massive jump that they could do things like this retrospectively in the future if they're doing it for new apps now. I didn't know they were already!

 

[leeh]

This is actually happening guys. Microsoft is locking down Win32 in the name of security and OS integrity, as well as an interest to push people toward the App Store.

Microsoft is pushing developers to virtualize Win32 applications in AppX packages (Project Centennial, etc.), and it's very easy to see a future where Microsoft requires developers to either virtualize Win32 apps, use UWP, or have issues with native Win32 installs.

The only leap here is that downloading AppX packages through the Windows Store will be the only option.

Virtualisation of Win32 is a very good thing, reason bolded in your own post.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

I'm sorry, but I refuse to see this as plausible. Considering that a significant number of people use Windows PCs because of gaming potential, this is essentially a suicide note for Microsoft if so... at least, as it applies to this segment of the population. They would surely recognize that such techniques would instead increase the viability of competing platforms instead of encourage people to abandon Steam as a distribution channel altogether.

I call BS somewhere.

Not really because the majority of games on PC are Windows only or at least "better" on Windows, ergo crippling Steam in this instance would not benefit competing operating system since games are not as widely available there as they are on Windows. So according to Sweeney, MS is going to try to make as much devs as possible make their games available on the Windows store regardless of exclusivity since they"ll try to cripple Steam anyway.

That's why Valve attempt to transition from Windows to Linux was a good idea, it was just executed poorly.

 

[leeh]

I explicitly said that that was possibly accidental, so if you would like to discuss this I would appreciate if:
1) you read the actual fucking words I type
2) you stop with the ad hominems and strawmen

Well apologies for that phrasing, I did see that. Although:
A) It's not accidental: They just haven't developed it yet
B) It's not on purpose: They just haven't developed it yet
C) You wouldn't of even had a point if you did a quick google search

 

[petran79]

This is literally what happened with DOS game support from Win98SE onwards; luckily people that aren't MS created DOSBOX and we didn't just lose a generation of Pc games.

Prior to Dosbox there were apps like VDMSound and SoundFX. One of the two was incorporated to DOSBOX, not sure which. They allowed for DOS programs to run with sound. WinXP run DOS in a virtualized environment.

Greater damage was done to the old Win95/98 games, some of which is impossible to run on current systems. I remember playing Dungeon Keeper 1 on Windows with the Direct3D patch. Much smoother experience than the DOS version. Same for the flight simulator Flying Corps.

Direct3D acceleration of old Windows games has still many issues to be resolved

 

[vareon]

I don't think MS is actively planning to make Steam worse (I don't think it's a good use of resource), but they can make their updates completely disregard whether it makes Steam worse or not. They're just doing what they want to do regardless of Steam.

 

[JaggedSac]

This is actually happening guys. Microsoft is locking down Win32 in the name of security and OS integrity, as well as an interest to push people toward the App Store.

Microsoft is pushing developers to virtualize Win32 applications in AppX packages (Project Centennial, etc.), and it's very easy to see a future where Microsoft requires developers to either virtualize Win32 apps, use UWP, or have issues with native Win32 installs.

The only leap here is that downloading AppX packages through the Windows Store will be the only option.

You can install any appx package at this very point in time if you want. Currently a security pop-up will occur talking about certificates.

In a week(now if you are in the Insider Preview), you will be able to install any appx package and it will not have a security pop-up, if it has been signed by a cert derived from any of the trusted roots, which can be gotten from any trusted cert vendor. Cert signing is also not new.

 

[Nillansan]

Given Microsoft's history, this all seems plausible.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

I'm greatly looking forward to see how this update will enable the full Steam overlay functionality, Mumble positional audio, and GeDoSaTo support for programs distributed as UWP.

I don't know if this will be in the August 2 update, but they will certainly target that version instead of developing for a version which is soon obsolete.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

There are problems with this theory. One. People will catch up to this scheme very fast and raise a stink over it. There are few groups more obsessive than gamers who think their favourite thing is being destroyed. Two. There are other gaming stores on Windows than Steam.

And most importantly, three, Win32 apps and such are the very reason why Windows is even used. If they try to kill them and go app store route, Windows will lose to iOS and Android because then there will be literally no reason at all to use Windows on desktop. And MS has no real presence at all on mobile side.