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[UKUMI0]

You can install any appx package at this very point in time if you want. Currently a security pop-up will occur talking about certificates.

In a week(now if you are in the Insider Preview), you will be able to install any appx package and it will not have a security pop-up, if it has been signed by a cert derived from any of the trusted roots, which can be gotten from any trusted cert vendor. Cert signing is also not new.

Wasn't there talks at last Build of Microsoft working Steam/Publishers/Whoever to start getting UWP games distributed through Steam?

I guess the lack of Overlay and other such features killed this until they patch it in.

 

[patapuf]

Windows will never work as a Walled Garden.

MS will try with all it's might to make it work though.

I don't know why people act like that's not a thing. (not aimed at you).

 

[Langdon Alger]

Glad to see so many people are saying this theory is insane, because it would be a catastrophe if it was true.

 

[horkrux]

A tiny thing that bugs me in Win10 is the inability to customise tiles. Win10 apps get nice icons and live tiles, but Win32 shortcuts get crappy old icons on a background colour of Windows' choosing. No ability to create your own beautiful tile menu; if you want it looking nice, use store apps.

There were utilities like OblyTile in Win8 to tweak this, but it appears completely locked down in Win10. If you're running crusty old Win32 apps, you get a crusty old menu.

Like I said, it's a tiny, tiny thing. But it also demonstrates what he is talking about. Non-store apps are already second class citizens. How many other little inconsequential things will seep in to remind us that store apps are better? What happens when they begin to compound?

I believe him, and evidently Gabe Newell does too.

Why would they waste time implementing the option for you to create custom tiles for programs you haven't designed yourself? Most people still use the desktop for normal icons, Microsoft don't care about idiots like me who put everything on the Metro screen. And of course you can decide the background color in Windows 10. Do you even use it? All tiles get the same background color now - a color of your choosing. And there is already alternatives to OblyTile -> TileCreator.

Please. This is ridiculous.

My opinion of Sweeney has just plummeted with this interview. We've entered doomsaying territory now.

 

[Arulan]

I don't know if this will be in the August 2 update, but they will certainly target that version instead of developing for a version which is soon obsolete.

It's really not about features. They could add support for every feature of Win32, but the problem remains. Win32 treats the user as the admin of their PC, UWP makes you beholden to the whims of Microsoft.

 

[FaintDeftone]

I wouldn't be shocked if there was truth to these claims at all. I doubt it would affect Valve much though. I could see them ramping up R&D on SteamOS and it becoming the go-to platform for PC gaming if Microsoft pulled these tactics.

 

[LordRaptor]

Well apologies for that phrasing, I did see that. Although:
A) It's not accidental: They just haven't developed it yet
B) It's not on purpose: They just haven't developed it yet
C) You wouldn't of even had a point if you did a quick google search

No;
A) The way the WDM compositor works is by design because the point of UWAs is for portable software across multiple platforms, and certain of those target platforms have vastly different performance capabilities and usage scenarios.
B) It's probably not 'on purpose' that releasing AAA PC Desktop games completely breaks the most common Pc gaming friendslist, its just indicative that the Xbox division don't have a fucking clue what they are doing relating to PC gaming, hence they are attempting to turn an appstore into a contemporary performance desktop software digital storefront, a purpose for which it was never originally designed and is extremely poorly suited.
C) A thing that is missing is still missing, it doesn't fucking matter what PR was put out about it. It is vapourware until it is not.

e:

Prior to Dosbox there were apps like VDMSound and SoundFX. One of the two was incorporated to DOSBOX, not sure which. They allowed for DOS programs to run with sound. WinXP run DOS in a virtualized environment.

Greater damage was done to the old Win95/98 games, some of which is impossible to run on current systems. I remember playing Dungeon Keeper 1 on Windows with the Direct3D patch. Much smoother experience than the DOS version. Same for the flight simulator Flying Corps.

Direct3D acceleration of old Windows games has still many issues to be resolved

Yes, you are right, and subsequent editions of Windows moved DOS virtualisation to being a Windows Corporate edition feature, instead of a standard Windows feature - I believe it was Vista that this was first introduced, but my memory is not perfect.

 

[hooijdonk17]

Virtualisation of Win32 is a very good thing, reason bolded in your own post.

It is also a very restricting thing because it interferes greatly with your control over the OS and software. There are many ways of making an OS secure, and virtualizing Win32 is a draconian way of doing it. If anything, MS should take cues from Linux, not Apple.

 

[FairXchange]

I guess it's hard for some people to believe, but I'm sure Valve understands the threat they face. Actually, Steam OS is surely a direct response to this knowledge of a long term conflict with Windows.

 

[cHaOs667]

I think most of you guys (and Sweeny) are hyperboling completely.

We are not talking here about an stand alone product that has near zero sales. When we are talking about the Win32 api we are talking about one of the most used API's on this planet (maybe it's the most used API).

Even when you are developing an UWP app you can still access the Win32 API.

Let's take a look back in the 30+ years history of Windows. We only see that they have removed the Win16 support but this had to be done because of technical reasons as 64 Bit CPUs can't run Win16 apps anymore as they are not running in protected mode.

Take a look at the GDI API - they have introduced it in 1983? - it is still available. You can still build Windows apps with it (even when they have removed some hardware acceleration features in Windows Vista and later added them again) even in Windows 10.

What Sweeny wrote is just pure FUD without any substantial basis. He is reffereing to Apple (who are really deprecating APIs and rendering apps completely useless) but you can still use Apps on OSX that have not been downloaded via the AppStore...

Spoiler

Hey Tim, I can even use Steam on OSX - even when they have locked down the OS...

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Valve does that all by themselves. Steam is a piece of shit software, that's literally an internet browser. And hilariously using steam through any other browser for some reason works multitudes better.

Windows store is even less functional though so I guess it could be worse.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Still getting this daily W10 update bug where 'update failed to install correctly' and computer does a restart before booting. Been nearly two months now and no resolution from MS and I've read countless threads with people with same issue.

This is the price we pay for not being able to turn off auto-updates and precisely the reason I feared changing from W7 to W10.

 

[M3d10n]

I don't if they'd do it this way, but they have form for this kind of thing. Going back a long way (DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run) or the new Windows 10 warning that pops up if you're using Chrome or Firefox to say they're power inefficient and you should use Edge:

That's a bit shameless, but again Google does the same thing by aggressively pestering me to install Chrome on every Google service I load on a non-Chrome browser.

 

[hooijdonk17]

That's a bit shameless, but again Google does the same thing by aggressively pestering me to install Chrome on every Google service I load on a non-Chrome browser.

A service claiming to run better on a certain browser is less obnoxious than an OS blatantly advertising an application or service..

 

[leeh]

No;
A) The way the WDM compositor works is by design because the point of UWAs is for portable software across multiple platforms, and certain of those target platforms have vastly different performance capabilities and usage scenarios.
B) It's probably not 'on purpose' that releasing AAA PC Desktop games completely breaks the most common Pc gaming friendslist, its just indicative that the Xbox division don't have a fucking clue what they are doing relating to PC gaming, hence they are attempting to turn an appstore into a contemporary performance desktop software digital storefront, a purpose for which it was never originally designed and is extremely poorly suited.
C) A thing that is missing is still missing, it doesn't fucking matter what PR was put out about it. It is vapourware until it is not.

What are you even saying here? With their design, they knew overlays wouldn't work and they would of been planned for on their roadmap.

Naive to think theyre stupid and they didn't think about this, they just didn't have time and had it planned out as a feature to implement. Hence why it's actually occurring now.

They have had more functionality originally planned to of released with UWP but timescales got pushed out, as they pretty much always do. Just because they weren't there doesn't mean they were stupid and didn't think to get it done, they just won't of had all the time to support everything they want to support.

Ever heard of a backlog?

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

Does that go throughout go progressively tightening the OS? Yes

App Store has been around forever and yet I can still install and run software outside of it.

 

[leeh]

It is also a very restricting thing because it interferes greatly with your control over the OS and software. There are many ways of making an OS secure, and virtualizing Win32 is a draconian way of doing it. If anything, MS should take cues from Linux, not Apple.

If your telling me that Linux is secure, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[InsaneTiger]

I have no idea why people think this is "unbelievable" this is a company who has done shady shit in the past, a big business investing in the PC market and looking to take control of it without making it obvious for PR reasons and a company who has handed out an OS for free to increase numbers an OS of which has forced updates.

I mean, you can see where this is going right? Oh and might I add this is also a company who were at one point going to release a console always online and were forced to change their stance.

I mean let's not sitting here and pretend Microsoft are above shady shit, they clearly aren't and they have been wanting to make PC a "walled garden" for years.

I agree with you and I have nothing else to add.

 

[Interfectum]

I'm shocked how many people are doubting Sweeney here. It's quite obvious a closed Windows Platform is Microsoft's long game. They aren't going to force you to use the Windows Store out the gate but there will be years of nudging you in that direction until they finally flip the switch.

 

[duvjones]

My question to this is that.... is simply crying to Mircosoft about it and discussing it here on Gaf until the sun sets really going to accomplish anything?

Because of the way that PC gaming has set up over the years, it's not a shock that it can be held hostage like this. And it has happened before... anyone remember Vista and OpenGL, the simply threat of a change in the Window Ecosystem is enough to force a development in their favour.

PC gaming has become so dependant on Windows that it is to it's folly, and any change require the uncomfortable truth that there will be some really differences else where. I still don't see where Sweeny gets offer no real answers aside from begging and pleading for change to not happen.

 

[hooijdonk17]

If your telling me that Linux is secure, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

In the hands of a capable administrator Linux is pretty secure.

My question to this is that.... is simply crying to Mircosoft about it and discussing it here on Gaf until the sun sets really going to accomplish anything?

Because of the way that PC gaming has set up over the years, it's not a shock that it can be held hostage like this. And it has happened before... anyone remember Vista and OpenGL, the simply threat of a change in the Window Ecosystem is enough to force a development in their favour.

PC gaming has become so dependant on Windows that it is to it's folly, and any change require the uncomfortable truth that there will be some really differences else where. I still don't see where Sweeny gets offer no real answers aside from begging and pleading for change to not happen.

Actually this is just the time and place to bring the matter up. With an API like Vulkan that can run on pretty much any hardware/software platform at a crucial battle for low-level game development market share against DirectX 12 (which is in many ways a UWP trojan horse by itself) there would be no better time to discuss this than now. Vulkan and Linux can make all the difference for PC gaming today than it ever could possibly have since MS DOS 5.0

 

[prudislav]

Windows store is even less functional though so I guess it could be worse.

well even the original green-design of steam is much better than Windows AppStore at this point

 

[cookie-monster]

Wow, so many people in this thread seem unaware of the term Embrace, Extend and Extinguish. What Sweeney is describing is not only plausible, it's what MS has been doing for decades for many different areas. They are doing it now to move into selling games on PC, and Valve is their competitor. It's no surprise. The only question is if they can get away with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish

They invented win32, this doesn't apply.

 

[Trup1aya]

I'm shocked at the reactions in this thread. Tim Sweeny is one of the smartest guys in the industry. Microsoft have tried this many times before (sometimes they got caught and failed). They may not be doing it, they may decide the PR is not worth it, but they've been refusing to deny doing it and talking around the issue which itself should be worrying enough.

They've denied it several times,

 

[JaggedSac]

They invented win32, this doesn't apply.

The lord giveth, and the lord taketh away.

 

[Noobcraft]

This comes off as crazy. Microsoft has always been surprisingly good at backwards compatibility. You can upgrade from windows 1.0 to window 8.1 stepwise and it will preserve your settings.

https://youtu.be/8WP7AkJo3OE

 

[JimJamJones]

That seems... excessive.

Spoiler

I'd believe it.

 

[UncleSporky]

Whether they're planning on doing this or not, I don't think it can hurt to talk about it and make it known that this is seen as a possibility, because if they are planning anything like that, it could slow their plans to do so.

"Shit they're onto us, now we have to wait a bit for people to forget about these accusations."

 

[Varg]

Sure Tim sure lmao

 

[V_Arnold]

That it takes nearly half a year to make minor usability patches to a digital storefront is telling in and of itself.

You seem to be moving the goalpost quite a bit there, mate. And I do not even like UWP or its storefront.

 

[Tabarin]

MS did shady and illegal things back then? SURE, probably all companies did to try to secure themselves.

Will they be able to do anything even remotely close to what Tim is saying?

HELL NO LOL!

This is no 1998 son!

 

[stan423321]

Virtualisation of Win32 is a very good thing, reason bolded in your own post.

Security is such a screwed up word when it comes to computing. Specifically: MS cares about their security. Moreover they care about their financial security. They only care about user's security to the level it can affect the latter.

This naturally means they block a lot of things that are the reason PC gaming thrives, such as DLL overrides for instance, because someone stupid on the internet can misuse it and then blame them. And that's a relatively honest case! What about blocking competing programs? For instance, on iOS and at least on initial version of "modern app" API native code generation is not allowed "since it can go wrong"... but that's not the whole truth. It also makes it harder to create a competitor to the official program store or the official programming toolchain, and heavily cripples attempts at creating a competing web browser. The fact that it slows emulators and some games down is just a cherry on top.

 

[The Jackdog]

Next Interview With Tim Sweeny:

"Microsoft Behind Benghazi"

 

[jay]

I just got a check in the mail for a settlement on DRAM price fixing. Would most of you also assume there's no way such a conspiracy could have existed?

 

[Outrun]

Not this shit again...


Didn't we have a thread about this a while ago?

 

[Knuf]

Goddamn, the first page is awful, hurts my brain reading most of the posts there.
Maybe Sweeney was a bit hyperbolic with his words, but the walled garden models MS is trying to copy with Windows as a service are clear as water and desktop PCs users are totally right to be worried of the OS complete control MS is trying to take, regardless of users' will.
And the people here saying that the "new" MS is not evil like it was some years ago just because Nudella seems to be a good guy, lmao, check your facts, even under Nudella MS is *still* the company that is making billions every year (in fact 9% of its total revenues) from bogus Android patents claims.

 

[DeepEnigma]

So ... wait for //build/?

 

[Drazgul]

Microsoft is the worst thing about PC gaming. Though I'm half-hoping that they actually will try and pull this off, maybe that'd finally make year of the linux turn from a tired old meme into a real thing.

 

[old manatee]

shrug. I'll buy a steam box and go down with Gabe's sinking ship before I give more gaming money to Microsoft.

GFWL showed me everything I need to know about their business model. I would just quit PC gaming after 30 years and go all in on PlayStation and Nintendo before I bought a single game on the app store.

 

[LordRaptor]

Naive to think theyre stupid and they didn't think about this, they just didn't have time and had it planned out as a feature to implement.

They either didn't think it through, hence the backlash on their actions, or they are intentionally trying to sabotage PC gaming to take control of it, and they don't give a fuck about the backlash.

They weren't working to anyones timetable but their own.
Would it be acceptable to publish an Xbox One game that has no access to any of Xbox Lives community features? No of course it fucking wouldn't. So why is it acceptable to do the same on the PC, other than the fact that you don't personally use the PC?

e:

You seem to be moving the goalpost quite a bit there, mate. And I do not even like UWP or its storefront.

A storefront so integrated into the OS that it requires major Service Pack level OS revisions to add functionality is fucking stupid.

 

[watership]

I like Tim, but the way he sets this up makes MS the bad guy no matter what. Like they want to harm PC gamers. Especially how he frames it as "It will happen, aand if it doesn't it's only because MS is incapable of pulling it off". That's making sure he's right no matter the actual outcome.

 

[mckmas8808]

Is this the same Epic Games fellow that jumped the gun by going to the press with all the issues he had with UWP right before Build when Microsoft started talking to developers and press about how those issues were being addressed?

Isn't this apart of the problem though?

 

[Real_Madrid]

A bit of both, corporations are getting away with exactly everything these days. And blind defense of them from many users on this forum is scaring the living hell out of me, both in the "Game" and "Off-Topic" part of GAF.

And currently living in Germany the entire TTIP-Debate is all over the place. People over here are in general not very corporate-friendly atm.

And no i dont think Sweeney is embarassing himself! Bad choice of words perhaps, but at least he is vocal and voicing his concerns. And he still is in the forefront of the industry with Unreal Engine 4 so I wouldn´t swoosh his opionions away like a fly.

You do know that Tim Sweeney (and Gabe Newell for that matter) is part of a corporation, who only wants bigger profits?
People are not 'blind defending' corporations, to me it just seems that you are blind defending the other side. If it's against corporations, it's good, right?

And Sweeney is embarrassing himself, he just says a lot of weird things that will never happen.

 

[Dick Justice]

I'm shocked how many people are doubting Sweeney here

Don't be. I'm going to guess that a good portion of them aren't even PC gamers, and are just stanning for MS as usual like with most UWP threads. Just look at that one fucking guy on the first page and his worship of Phil Spencer.

 

[duvjones]

Actually this is just the time and place to bring the matter up. With an API like Vulkan that can run on pretty much any hardware/software platform at a crucial battle for low-level game development market share against DirectX 12 (which is in many ways a UWP trojan horse by itself) there would be no better time to discuss this than now. Vulkan and Linux can make all the difference for PC gaming today than it ever could possibly have since MS DOS 5.0

As much as I agree with you... it remains to be seen if users take the change. Steam OS hasn't seen a update by much despite Debian Unstable going through several large changes (the biggest so far being to the move to systemd) and most gamers would be lost in the weeds of Linux+Wayland/X11+DE (most likely Cinnamon, MATE, KDE or GNOME).

Even with Vulkan, the fact remains that any other operating system is structurally different than Windows. So there is no drop-in replaces that Tim seems to be clamming for.

 

[dearodie]

I would be there right along with you my friend.

Me three!

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

It's a dark world you're painting here, Tim.

Spoiler

And I believe you.

 

[jelly]

Wait for Build ...Wait

Spoiler

until they

Build

Spoiler

the wall

 

[LordRaptor]

Trust me, they care about the backlash, can you imagine the damage this would do to Microsoft if they actually went ahead with it?

That's why I believe it is the Xbox teams incompetence and complete lack of familiarity with Pc gaming - outside of "I want some of that money too" - that is causing this friction, not an intentional plan to wreck everything good about Pc gaming.

But of course, intention means little in the long run, its the effects of those actions.

 

[General Lee]

While MS is capable of doing some pretty big blunders, I don't see this grand conspiracy theory panning out for them. Regardless, it doesn't hurt to keep MS on their toes. I'd just expect a little more nitty gritty facts from a guy like Sweeney rather than just the usual fud talk you see on forums with the link to that embrace extinguish as "proof" of how it's guaranteed to happen.