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[LordRaptor]

And to your point of note- UWP apps do not "break" features of Steam. UWP apps simply cannot support some of Steams features at the present.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways;
You can't berate Tim Sweeney for attributing malicious intent to MS actions based on zero evidence, while simultaneously downplaying the fact that Steam community features being broken is accidental oversight that MS are definitely in favour of fixing based on also no evidence.

In short, your attribution of good intentions to MS is no more based on evidence that Tim Sweenys attribution of bad intentions.
So let's leave intentions out of this.

Steam community features are broken - as in non-functional, the technical reasons as to why do not matter - when playing a UWA title.

 

[Sydle]

Sorry, you can't have it both ways;
You can't berate Tim Sweeney for attributing malicious intent to MS actions based on zero evidence, while simultaneously downplaying the fact that Steam community features being broken is accidental oversight that MS are definitely in favour of fixing based on also no evidence.

In short, your attribution of good intentions to MS is no more based on evidence that Tim Sweenys attribution of bad intentions.
So let's leave intentions out of this.

Steam community features are broken - as in non-functional, the technical reasons as to why do not matter - when playing a UWA title.

Is there a list somewhere of what's supposedly broken?

 

[Trup1aya]

Sorry, you can't have it both ways;
You can't berate Tim Sweeney for attributing malicious intent to MS actions based on zero evidence, while simultaneously downplaying the fact that Steam community features being broken is accidental oversight that MS are definitely in favour of fixing based on also no evidence.

In short, your attribution of good intentions to MS is no more based on evidence that Tim Sweenys attribution of bad intentions.
So let's leave intentions out of this.

Steam community features are broken - as in non-functional, the technical reasons as to why do not matter - when playing a UWA title.

When did I say MS has good intentions? I said we have no evidence either way. We just have MS stated roadmap. And we have Sweeney's made-up anecdotes.

There are no features being broken by the existance of UWP. Individual games not supporting a feature is not the same as breaking a feature.

As much as I would like for every game to support everything steam has to offer, I understand that the reasons UWP doesn't support these particular features is technical. even without a technical limitation, I don't think any developer should be seen as required to support all of everything... Even if I want them too- I simply don't buy games that don't do what I want them to do.

 

[TBiddy]

Steam community features are broken - as in non-functional, the technical reasons as to why do not matter - when playing a UWA title.

They aren't broken or non-functional. You can easily switch to Steam and use them. There's nothing broken, disabled, non-functional or whichever word you prefer about that. They aren't supported in UWA-titles, but that doesn't mean they are broken.

 

[leeh]

Sorry, you can't have it both ways;
You can't berate Tim Sweeney for attributing malicious intent to MS actions based on zero evidence, while simultaneously downplaying the fact that Steam community features being broken is accidental oversight that MS are definitely in favour of fixing based on also no evidence.

In short, your attribution of good intentions to MS is no more based on evidence that Tim Sweenys attribution of bad intentions.
So let's leave intentions out of this.

Steam community features are broken - as in non-functional, the technical reasons as to why do not matter - when playing a UWA title.

If something was broken, it has to of worked at some point in time. Don't try and make out that they're intentionally breaking things because something simply hasn't been developed yet.

It'd be like me saying PvP is broken in Pokemon Go.

 

[LordRaptor]

Sure, let's all pretend that if EA released a game on the Xbox One that doesn't support snapping, and that doesn't use Xbox Live friends lists, but only used Origin accounts for community features like game notifications, messaging and invites, you'd all be going "No, its not broken using Xbox features, it just hasn't added them yet!"

 

[TBiddy]

Sure, let's all pretend that if EA released a game on the Xbox One that doesn't support snapping, and that doesn't use Xbox Live friends lists, but only used Origin accounts for community features like game notifications, messaging and invites, you'd all be going "No, its not broken using Xbox features, it just hasn't added them yet!"

What? That doesn't even make sense. In order for that comparison to make sense, Microsoft would have to publish games on Steam that didn't support Steam-features, like EA (in your example) is publishing games on XB1 that doesn't support XB1-features.

In the real world, Microsoft are publishing games on their own store, using their own format. These games doesn't support specific 3rd-party features. That doesn't compare to the above.

 

[LordRaptor]

In order for that comparison to make sense, Microsoft would have to publish games on Steam that didn't support Steam-features

No it would mean MS are publishing games on Windows that do not support standard Windows executable features which OH SHIT I JUST DESCRIBED UWA

e:
Because if you do not understand that fundamental point, there is literally no point to discussing any of this with you.

 

[M3d10n]

I don't even necessarily agree that that's the case - UWA as a sandboxed software type specifically designed for closed systems like the Xbox One and phones works exactly as intended.

The problem is trying to force performance desktop software sized pegs into a closed ecosystem appstore sized hole.
Which is why I attribute that to the Xbox division fucking up and not sinister plans, because other performance desktop software made by MS themself is still sold as traditional executable format through traditional retail channels.

The day MS Project is available solely as a UWA through the W10 store is the day its a deliberate maneuver and not just incompetence.

The upcoming update allows win32 apps to be distributed via the store. They're not true UWAs, however: it's just plan old win32 apps wrapped around a partial filesystem/registry sandbox and with a standardized install/uninstall/update system that works without need for admin rights.

Theoretically, Steam itself could be distributed through the store this way.

 

[wapplew]

You're oversimplifying an argument into what you want to respond to;
Netscape has only been brought up in this topic by MS defenders by using it as a "NOT THE 90s ANYMORE BRO LOLOLOL" deflection and is not mentioned anywhere in the OP.
Tim Sweeneys claims about degrading the Steam experience are an answer to a specific question about "How" MS could topple Steam as the popular choice.

Also, as point of note again - currently steam community features are broken when using a UWA game.

I would love to see MS try to pull same tactic against google chrome.

 

[TBiddy]

No it would mean MS are publishing games on Windows that do not support standard Windows executable features which OH SHIT I JUST DESCRIBED UWA

e:
Because if you do not understand that fundamental point, there is literally no point to discussing any of this with you.

No need to get snarky. Your comparison didn't make sense.

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

Sure, let's all pretend that if EA released a game on the Xbox One that doesn't support snapping, and that doesn't use Xbox Live friends lists, but only used Origin accounts for community features like game notifications, messaging and invites, you'd all be going "No, its not broken using Xbox features, it just hasn't added them yet!"

See, now you're morphing the argument to suit your own agenda. A good number of UWA games are Xbox Live-API enabled. Quantum Break, Gears of War: Ultimate Edition, Killer Instinct, Forza Apex, Ori and the Blind Forest, etc.

They using Microsoft's own API. These are games that are based in the Windows 10 Store. If they're not on Steam, why would they support Steam features? Your EA analogy is flawed, because EA is contractually obligated to support the platform features of the consoles it publishes on, that the business of working on closed systems. Those are rules Microsoft and Sony operate on.

And before you tell me that you can run steam features through Origin and uPlay on PC, you and I both know that they're aren't exactly 1:1 like with using Steam natively, on top of the fact that Origin and uPlay are both Win32-based and UWAs aren't.

Steam features =/= Standard windows executable features

 

[Purest 78]

This guy seriously doesn't Trust or like MS.

 

[LordRaptor]

Steam features =/= Standard windows executable features

Yes, in fact, they are.
That's sort of the whole damn point.
Steam added its features in such a way that they would work with any standard windows executable, by using features available to any standard windows executable.

The only way they would be broken would be to deliberately create non-standard windows executables.

And the fact that MS managed to get their Xbox Live APIs support in before even considering standard windows executable features isn't exactly a huge blow to Tim Sweeneys hypothesis regarding MS intentions.

e:

The upcoming update allows win32 apps to be distributed via the store. They're not true UWAs, however: it's just plan old win32 apps wrapped around a partial filesystem/registry sandbox and with a standardized install/uninstall/update system that works without need for admin rights.

Theoretically, Steam itself could be distributed through the store this way.

Yes, but given UWAs have no real benefit to anyone that is not directly employed or funded by MS, I suspect we are not going to see major Win32 software vendors such as Adobe or Autodesk rushing to place their wares there.

 

[TBiddy]

Yes, but given UWAs have no real benefit to anyone that is not directly employed or funded by MS, I suspect we are not going to see major Win32 software vendors such as Adobe or Autodesk rushing to place their wares there.

Yes, it's impossible that anyone could gain anything from creating an UWA that ran on both XB1, W10 and W10 mobile. I swear, the hyperbole in this thread is off the charts.

 

[SOR5]

I would love to see MS try to pull same tactic against google chrome.

Googles websites absolutely nag the living shit out of you to use Chrome on different browsers

 

[InfiniteUnrest]

In Tim's defense, MS doesn't exactly have a good track record on this sort of thing, and it wouldn't be the first time they tried to maneuver into a monopoly. I guess people quickly forget these events.

 

[JaggedSac]

I don't think he was referring to the article but talking about you and a few others. And as far as the writer don't know who he is but Fox news also has citations and facts. Not saying this guy is Fox News or not but our biases always color how we view situations on either side.

Peter Bright knows his stuff. Here is another good article he did on OneCore.

http://arstechnica.com/information-...-all-how-windows-everywhere-finally-happened/

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

Yes, in fact, they are.
That's sort of the whole damn point.
Steam added its features in such a way that they would work with any standard windows executable, by using features available to any standard windows executable.

The only way they would be broken would be to deliberately create non-standard windows executables.

And the fact that MS managed to get their Xbox Live APIs support in before even considering standard windows executable features isn't exactly a huge blow to Tim Sweeneys hypothesis regarding MS intentions.

How does not leveraging standard windows executable features in Universal Windows Applications coincide with willfully breaking Steam?

You have not explained that, neither has Sweeney. You have taken up for arguing against us MS Defenders that same structurally flawed premise that he has. Your arguments boil down to anger that Steam cannot function normally with UWAs, which is a fine sentiment. But now you've stretched it to say that know limitations of the UWP are actually meant to harm Steam when the issue is that UWAs are structurally different to Win32 exes.

 

[LordRaptor]

Yes, it's impossible that anyone could gain anything from creating an UWA that ran on both XB1, W10 and W10 mobile. I swear, the hyperbole in this thread is off the charts.

I don't know how much clearer I could be that UWA as an appstore for Windows <-> Windows Phone interoperability makes sense but doesn't make sense for performance desktop software.

A "game" is not an interchangeable unit of software product where there is no difference in performance, usage expectations, interface or control mechanisms; a "Quantum Break" is not a "Candy Crush Saga".
One makes sense on a "This works on your phone AND on your Laptop!" and one absolutely does not.

e:

you've stretched it to say that know limitations of the UWP are actually meant to harm Steam when the issue is that UWAs are structurally different to Win32 exes.

No, I have been pretty consistently not attributing intention.
Because intention is mostly irrelevant.

 

[Tarin02543]

I tried that new Unreal Tournement with the Epic DRM.

I know enough.

 

[dr_rus]

Yes, it's impossible that anyone could gain anything from creating an UWA that ran on both XB1, W10 and W10 mobile. I swear, the hyperbole in this thread is off the charts.

Can you give any examples here beyond the awfully needed and useful Facebook and Twitter native clients?

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Ars' Peter Bright effortlessly debunk's Tim Sweeney's argument.

Edit: Ah, this has been posted already. Still, great read. I love his analysis on Windows and the Microsoft ecosystem, a few years ago he covered how Microsoft was switching its development practices from Waterfalls to Agile (starting with VisualBasic and enterprise software), and indeed, since then Xbox and Windows have moved to Agile. He also looked into how PC OEMs were struggling (back then) to compete with the MacBook Air on price.

 

[cakely]

That comes across as more than a little paranoid.

It's also still very difficult to envision a future where someone other than the most dedicated Microsoft fan would choose to buy a game from the Win 10 store over one of the other, perfectly functional storefronts that sells win32 games.

 

[Trup1aya]

Sure, let's all pretend that if EA released a game on the Xbox One that doesn't support snapping, and that doesn't use Xbox Live friends lists, but only used Origin accounts for community features like game notifications, messaging and invites, you'd all be going "No, its not broken using Xbox features, it just hasn't added them yet!"

how is this even comparable? There have been no UWP games released on steam. And even if there were, there's nothing to stop a developer from releasing a version that IS compatible with all of steams features.

A developer would have to CHOOSE UWP over Win32 with knowledge that those features won't work.

The existence of UWP isn't costing you these features.

 

[LordRaptor]

Remedy are currently making two new games for their partners, what a terrible predicament they have found themselves in!

Quoting this on news of Remedys new position working on Crossfire 2.
Because its like putting Bungie to work on Tribes: Ascend.

The existence of UWP isn't costing you these features.

UWAs inherently restrict those features, and others.
I mean, there's been a couple of topics about it now explaining why people are not particularly in favour of them.

 

[timberger]

While this certainly sounds like some vintage MS business strategy, I don't see where Sweeney is getting his ideas from here.

 

[Trup1aya]

Quoting this on news of Remedys new position working on Crossfire 2.
Because its like putting Bungie to work on Tribes: Ascend.



UWAs inherently restrict those features, and others.
I mean, there's been a couple of topics about it now explaining why people are not particularly in favour of them.

Have you installed Win10? Yes or no
If yes can you has your ability to utilize Steam features been hampered by win10?

J/K I know the answer is no.

I understand why people aren't in favor of UWP. But to act like the mere existence of UWP has degraded your experience is just false.

You have the option of not buying games that don't support the features you desire. Nothing has been taken from you.

UWP doesn't restrict Steam. UWP restricts its own executables such that they can't currently work with some of Steams features .

 

[Bits N Pieces]

From the Unreal Engine forums, it was announced that UE4 is now going to be receiving W10 UWA support.

https://forums.unrealengine.com/sho...gine-4-is-available-for-Win10-UWP-app-dev-now

An MS employees post on the forum re the announcement:

Microsoft has developed Universal Windows Platform (UWP) support for Unreal Engine 4, and has released the source code on GitHub as a fork of Epic Games' UE4 repository. This code is now available to all UE4 licensees under the terms of the UE4 license, which provide for source code redistribution and use.

This project is community-supported, with periodic updates from Microsoft's Xbox Advanced Technology Group (ATG) to help accelerate game development for UWP.

Wonder if Tim will decline it.....

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Quoting this on news of Remedys new position working on Crossfire 2.
Because its like putting Bungie to work on Tribes: Ascend.



UWAs inherently restrict those features, and others.
I mean, there's been a couple of topics about it now explaining why people are not particularly in favour of them.

Yeah, they should totally cut their nose off to spite there face and say fuck you Crossfire 2, we dont need your money. They are an independent developer who have costs and wages to pay, you take the money where you can.

This is what you said in your previous post

I do know that Remedys financial stability must have taken a hit along with their reputation, which affects potential future products.

You know the above cause you work there, you have insider knowledge or you are pushing your prejudiced opinion as fact to try and add another negative to a MS thread.

This hole you are digging keeps getting deeper and deeper with each passing page.

 

[Kssio_Aug]

He can start fighting for freedom releasing their games in GoG!

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

I tried that new Unreal Tournement with the Epic DRM.

I know enough.

What? I'm playing it, what DRM? It's a free online title?

 

[drsoup]

tim... wtf

 

[CyberMiguel]

From the Unreal Engine forums, it was announced that UE4 is now going to be receiving W10 UWA support.

https://forums.unrealengine.com/sho...gine-4-is-available-for-Win10-UWP-app-dev-now

An MS employees post on the forum re the announcement:




Wonder if Tim will decline it.....

Probably won't, since now the Xbox One will use almost full Windows 10 (and the UWA support that comes with it).

 

[Elfforkusu]

Embrace, extend, extinguish.

 

[Nzyme32]

He can start fighting for freedom releasing their games in GoG!

https://www.gog.com/games?devpub=epic_games&sort=bestselling&page=1

 

[MrCunningham]

This guy seriously doesn't Trust or like MS.

He has had strong ties with Microsoft in the past with Gears of War and even gave a lot of input in the development of the Xbox 360. Epic has worked closely with MS
on multiple occasions and I am sure that Sweeney knows the corporate culture of MS pretty well. But lately he has been a bit on edge with Microsoft which means that he might know something that we don't or doesn't like the direction that MS is going in with UWP.

 

[Kssio_Aug]

https://www.gog.com/games?devpub=epic_games&sort=bestselling&page=1

Thanks.



Go for it Tim!! LoL



Seriously though, maybe its not his case (I don't know how many IPs they have today and if all of then is on GoG) but many developers talk about platform freedom but most of them run away from GoG. Wish more could do like CD Projekt did with The Witcher.

 

[gamz]

This guy seriously doesn't Trust or like MS.

LordRaptor or Sweeney?

 

[Nzyme32]

Thanks.



Go for it Tim!! LoL

I mean, I'm not sure what you were expecting. Epic have their own launcher, and don't even have all of their own games on there.

Edit -

Seriously though, maybe its not his case (I don't know how many IPs they have today and if all of then is on GoG) but many developers talk about platform freedom but most of them run away from GoG. Wish more could do like CD Projekt did with The Witcher.

What does this have to do with anything here? He isn't claiming Microsoft can not have a store, or that Microsoft have to put their games on other stores. He welcomed more competition, as everyone should. Even Epic don't use the same tactics for everything. Paragon, Fortnite, UT are all only on Epic's launcher on Windows / Linux not Steam or anywhere else. Meanwhile the other UT games are everywhere. There is complete freedom of choice in what business decisions they make and where they choose to sell.

His problem is with UWP and his fear (or what he sees as an ongoing move from Microsoft) of reducing the ability of others to compete, ie the gradual closing of the platform Windows. Whether he is right or wrong is completely up in the air.

 

[LordRaptor]

Yeah, they should totally cut their nose off to spite there face and say fuck you Crossfire 2, we dont need your money. They are an independent developer who have costs and wages to pay, you take the money where you can.

This is what you said in your previous post

I do know that Remedys financial stability must have taken a hit along with their reputation, which affects potential future products.

What I said is literally what you are saying - that their financial stability has been affected, and they cannot be too choosy about what jobs they take, and that insecurity affects their choice of project.

I mean, sure, we can all pretend most AAA devs dream of the day they get to make the singleplayer for a Chinese F2P counter strike clone, and that someone like Remedy who have always pushed a graphical bar are now working on games that run on Pentium 3s, but it rings a little hollow.

Best case scenario is their other lined up project is that Disney went to them and gave them a Punisher game for consoles + PC like they went to Insomniac with Spiderman.
Worst case is they're making a Bond game for Activision which has been last step before dissolution for Bizarre and Eurocom.

 

[JaggedSac]

From the Unreal Engine forums, it was announced that UE4 is now going to be receiving W10 UWA support.

https://forums.unrealengine.com/sho...gine-4-is-available-for-Win10-UWP-app-dev-now

An MS employees post on the forum re the announcement:




Wonder if Tim will decline it.....

Lol

 

[Nzyme32]

From the Unreal Engine forums, it was announced that UE4 is now going to be receiving W10 UWA support.

https://forums.unrealengine.com/sho...gine-4-is-available-for-Win10-UWP-app-dev-now

An MS employees post on the forum re the announcement:




Wonder if Tim will decline it.....

Lol

Again, not sure of the problem. The point of such open development and using GitHub is for such collaboration. There are lots of forks already

 

[dragonelite]

Again, not sure of the problem. The point of such open development and using GitHub is for such collaboration. There are lots of forks already

Tell me about it, rip mailbox.

Spoiler

something went wrong with github

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

From the Unreal Engine forums, it was announced that UE4 is now going to be receiving W10 UWA support.

https://forums.unrealengine.com/sho...gine-4-is-available-for-Win10-UWP-app-dev-now

An MS employees post on the forum re the announcement:




Wonder if Tim will decline it.....

Just came to post this, also here:

http://www.windowscentral.com/unreal-engine-4-adds-uwp-windows-10-support-dont-tell-tim-sweeney

Been skimming through this thread but not really commenting. Thought this was funny with the discussion and all.

 

[drotahorror]

Steam community features are broken - as in non-functional, the technical reasons as to why do not matter - when playing a UWA title.

I guess I don't understand what this means.

Are you saying if you load up a UWA title you can't access the steam community? Because that's not true.

 

[dragonelite]

I guess I don't understand what this means.

Are you saying if you load up a UWA title you can't access the steam community? Because that's not true.

Me either, i don't have any non steam games.
So i'm thinking steam community is something devs have to build into their games?

 

[Trup1aya]

What I said is literally what you are saying - that their financial stability has been affected, and they cannot be too choosy about what jobs they take, and that insecurity affects their choice of project.

I mean, sure, we can all pretend most AAA devs dream of the day they get to make the singleplayer for a Chinese F2P counter strike clone, and that someone like Remedy who have always pushed a graphical bar are now working on games that run on Pentium 3s, but it rings a little hollow.

Best case scenario is their other lined up project is that Disney went to them and gave them a Punisher game for consoles + PC like they went to Insomniac with Spiderman.
Worst case is they're making a Bond game for Activision which has been last step before dissolution for Bizarre and Eurocom.

What?

Remedy chose to partner with MS to make an Xbox Exclusive game they knew all the risks with regards to selling an exclusives. Late in the process, they were contracted to make a PC port of the game. Whatever their current financial situation, it's primarily the result of the game not being particularly well received on its target platform, while also being expensive to make. It certainly didn't help that the PC port was terrible, but that isn't the root of the problem.

Yes, the Remedy would have stood to make more money if it were also sold on Steam. But the same could be said of any exclusive title. UWP didn't cause this games mediocre sales.

To paint Remedy as a casualty of UWP is a stretch.

I guess I don't understand what this means.

Are you saying if you load up a UWA title you can't access the steam community? Because that's not true.

I think he's talking about overlays

 

[dragonelite]

I think he's talking about overlays

Aah oke, yeah i remember that from like 5~7 years ago when i still pirated a couple of games.
Didn't Microsoft said they would add overlays some time in the future.

 

[drotahorror]

I think he's talking about overlays

Ah, well he said the technical reasons don't matter.

They do matter as it's something going on in UWP titles that can affect ANY overlay.

MSI afterburner? Nope. FRAPS? Nope. The only overlay that I know of that works is Dxtory.

This is not MS singling Steam out of a list of overlays that DO work. Because 99% of them DON'T work.