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[madjoki]

Win32 will continue to have critical parts of the API break or be depreciated. UWP will continue to gain exclusive features. Don't be surprised when DX13 has UWP only feature or is eventually UWP only. The future of windows is a closed platform. Microsoft is going to take their cut of all software purchase on their platform or no one is. The app store is coming and it's taking no prisoners. Windows 10 wasnt free, it was payed for with the freedom of the platform.

Well, Trigger rumble is one such UWP exclusive feature already. (It's part of XInput, which is part of DirectX).

Imo, expecting 100% closed system is bit too much.

For GPU access, we do have Vulkan, which makes it harder for MS to close DX, as it's likely that all rendering features will be both DX and Vulkan. Vulkan on otherhand should make it easier to do Linux ports.

 

[mulac]

No.

 

[Htown]

y'all still engaging with LukasTaves, huh?

I suggest y'all check post history and stop wasting your time

 

[cHaOs667]

Well, Trigger rumble is one such UWP exclusive feature already. (It's part of XInput, which is part of DirectX).

This is not 100% correct.

The "trigger rumble" feature is part of the Windows.Gaming.Input API which is the successor to XInput.

Yes, it is only available in Windows 10 and UWP Apps but - as always - nobody stops you from building an UWP app and distribute it via Steam, Origin whatever.

 

[MrCunningham]

If someone as big as the head of Epic games starts to bring up a concern like this, it is really hard for me to just dismiss it. It's not underneath Microsoft to do things like this.

 

[Small Mailman]

Does this honestly seem that far fetched?

 

[ghibli99]

I'll believe it when I see it, which will probably be never.

 

[TemplaerDude]

Yeah, but never to try that monopoly by simply man handling their users to only install the software they allow.

So? What's an avenue like that, to them? Just another way to keep you in the Microsoft playground. You need to stop assuming they're out for everyone's best interests, Microsoft has proven many times in the past they want the stranglehold on every market they're in. This is nothing new to them, it's just another tactic that people are only just catching onto.

 

[samn]

Just bought a Macbook Pro and installed Steam. Every couple of days Steam decides to use all my CPU, for no reason, not to download anything or to run anything. My fans whir up and my battery life halves. I have to restart it to get it to quiet down again.

This doesn't happen because Apple are sabotaging Steam. It happens because Steam is a slow bloated badly coded piece of crap. Oh and it's ugly too.

 

[bishoptl]

y'all still engaging with LukasTaves, huh?

I suggest y'all check post history and stop wasting your time

oh my

 

[riflen]

On the one hand, at the moment this is speculation by Sweeney. On the other, this is the oldest trick in Microsoft's book. Most of the posters on this forum seem to be barely in their twenties, so I can understand why it sounds like madness at first blush when you've done no research.
However, Microsoft used the same basic principle many times over the decades to push out competing software. Off the top of my head, you can include Netscape, Wordperfect Office and Wordstar amongst the casualties.
You can bet Gabe knows exactly what Microsoft are capable of, having worked there for years. I believe it's one of the reasons that SteamOS exists.

 

[flaxknuckles]

Just bought a Macbook Pro and installed Steam. Every couple of days Steam decides to use all my CPU, for no reason, not to download anything or to run anything. My fans whir up and my battery life halves. I have to restart it to get it to quiet down again.

This doesn't happen because Apple are sabotaging Steam. It happens because Steam is a slow bloated badly coded piece of crap. Oh and it's ugly too.

It really is ugly. It's an even worse eyesore on Ubuntu since it doesn't fit the theme.

 

[MageBoySA]

Microsoft already damaged a feature of Steam in Windows 10. The Guide button (It's a PS Button for me) doesn't work in Steam Big Picture mode, it instead tries to open the Xbox interface. I don't know if there is any way to disable this functionality either. It's not like they made it easy to discover,

 

[Trigg]

Microsoft already damaged a feature of Steam in Windows 10. The Guide button (It's a PS Button for me) doesn't work in Steam Big Picture mode, it instead tries to open the Xbox interface. I don't know if there is any way to disable this functionality either. It's not like they made it easy to discover,

Thats why you remove all the built in apps, store, and xbox crap.

 

[funkystudent]

If UMP apps can be distributed on 3rd party stores like MS suggests is allowed (although no one is doing...) what advantage does MS actually have by pushing the new Universal App platform so damn hard?


Do they have more control over them or something? Easier to track user data for selling ads and stuff? I dont quite get why they are going all in on them. Seems like change for the change of change.

 

[flaxknuckles]

Microsoft already damaged a feature of Steam in Windows 10. The Guide button (It's a PS Button for me) doesn't work in Steam Big Picture mode, it instead tries to open the Xbox interface. I don't know if there is any way to disable this functionality either. It's not like they made it easy to discover,

You can disable it with an option somewhere. Just google it.

 

[Trup1aya]

Okay;
True or False - MS would like to have a walled garden they are sole controller of.

It is extremely difficult to believe that they do not want that, yes?

So if we accept that that is true - that they have motive for doing that - what steps might be taken to achieve that?
Can you align actions they have taken with the aforesaid hypothetical steps required to achieve that goal?
If yes, then suspicions that they are acting towards achieving that goal are in fact warranted.

When did ANYONE say suspicions aren't warranted? What isn't warrented is claiming to have specific information regarding a specific plot to sabotage a competitor, when in fact you have nothing. The PLAUSIBLITY that MS would have an interest in completely walling off Windows, IS NOT evidence that they intend to do so... It certainly isn't proof they will sabotage Steam in 5 years. He pulled that out of his ass.

You can align all the actions and hypothetical steps you want, without evidence, all you have is a conspiracy theory.

 

[dsk1210]

I would certainly trust Sweeney more than Microsoft's PR.

 

[Hockeymac18]

If UMP apps can be distributed on 3rd party stores like MS suggests is allowed (although no one is doing...) what advantage does MS actually have by pushing the new Universal App platform so damn hard?


Do they have more control over them or something? Easier to track user data for selling ads and stuff? I dont quite get why they are going all in on them. Seems like change for the change of change.

I think the "code once, distribute to multiple platforms (mobile, PC, Xbox, etc.)" aspect of it that is seen as pretty advantageous. Especially since MS has been wanting to push their tablet/mobile side of the business more (and the "app gap" has been a big issue). I hear it's not thaaaaat straightforrward (yet?) though...but it should be helpful to devs that want to be on more than just a single platform in the Windows ecosystem.

Also, UWP is supposedly more secure than Win32. Although, if you let any store publish "apps", I don't see how it'll remain secure. I'm not familiar with all of those details, though.

 

[Doikor]

If UMP apps can be distributed on 3rd party stores like MS suggests is allowed (although no one is doing...) what advantage does MS actually have by pushing the new Universal App platform so damn hard?


Do they have more control over them or something? Easier to track user data for selling ads and stuff? I dont quite get why they are going all in on them. Seems like change for the change of change.

Security, less legacy stuff/cleaner api, support for different devices (high dpi, touch interface, etc.)

Also, UWP is supposedly more secure than Win32. Although, if you let any store publish "apps", I don't see how it'll remain secure. I don't know all of those details, though.

UWP applications are sandboxed so they are more secure even though anyone can publish and install one. A Win32 app can read other applications memory/screen/disk/what ever so you have to be very careful what you install (viruses, key loggers, oracle java installer installing stupid yahoo search bar, etc.). Basically they can only touch themself and nothing can touch them thus no overlays etc (yet. microsoft might add some way to do this in future)

edit: also simple one button (well 2 mouse clicks) uninstall (one you figure out the UX). Just right click on icon in start menu and uninstall.

UWP also brings some common UX design elements. Like moving mouse to top right corner in full screen mode and a X must appear for closing the application etc.

 

[Trojan]

I'm shocked Sweeney is getting so much hate. Yes, his comment had a little bit of a doomsday vibe, but he knows a hell of a lot more about W10 updates and Microsoft past history than most people. People speaking out like this keeps companies honest. His speaking out against UWP originally prompted Microsoft to address the elephant in the room that is a closed Windows platform down the road.

Let Microsoft show us how UWP is a better solution than Win32 rather than blindly trust they're doing the right thing.

 

[Hockeymac18]

UWP applications are sandboxed so they are more secure even though anyone can publish and install one. A non UWP app can read other applications memory/screen/what ever so you have to be very careful what you install (viruses, key loggers, oracle java installer installing stupid yahoo search bar, etc.)

Cool - thanks for that info.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

If he is that worried set an example - only release Epic games on SteamOs.

Haha, exactly

 

[Doikor]

Sweeney is coming across s a paranoid, conspiracy led pantomime character. Borderline ridiculous.

If he is that worried set an example - only release Epic games on SteamOs.

Better start would be to port the epic launcher to work on linux so you can actually use their own store front on linux.

 

[LordRaptor]

UWP also brings some common UX design elements. Like moving mouse to top right corner in full screen mode and a X must appear for closing the application etc.

Clicking X in top right means confirm and accept installation now I thought...?

 

[UKUMI0]

Clicking X in top right means confirm and accept installation now I thought...?

I believe that was reversed.

 

[roadrunn3r]

Wow I dunno what to say after reading half the reactions in this thread other than I can't have anything in common with these people. Do they even game on PC?
These many posters jumping in defense of MS every fucking time there is a thread like this is a big shame and kills any possibility of discussion. Yea lets dismiss everything this unknown lunatic crazy Sweeney guy says, good guy Phil would never do anything like that! Bleah, I'm out.

 

[teh_pwn]

Sounds like nonsense. Windows Store apps cannot replace billions of dollars of win32 apps. Show me Visual Studio with Windows Store's lack of detail and feature sets that a win32 app has.

 

[MrCunningham]

Better start would be to port the epic launcher to work on linux so you can actually use their own store front on linux.

I was just thinking the same thing.

Where is this, Sweeny?

 

[ghostjoke]

Initial reaction is he's being overzealous and it was a single part of a larger interview that got trimmed for headlines (congrats on succeeding on that front "journalists"). Then I imagine if someone told me about the current state and direction of Windows 10/XB1 5 years ago, I would have called them crazy too. Part of me sees MS as a blubbering idiot who will only damage the usability of Steam/Win32 by their sheer tunnel-vision incompetency. I'm dreading what is going to come with the anniversary update, add 5 years, shutter.

There's no overt evidence to it (beyond the dream of any capitalistic company), but MS have made zero in the way of changing their trajectory from years/decades gone by, and this time they've got the worst incarnation of their walled garden yet.

 

[teh_pwn]

It's a pretty dicey game Microsoft are playing if true. This isn't like trying to shift an ad-hoc access of the internet from one service to another, this is actively looking to cut off users from a service that has huge monetary investment from their users.

For those with catalogues in the hundreds, there isn't going to be a simple "just swap" decision: people are going to switch to Valve's alternative OS, they are going to rip copies of Win 8 off the net / run from archive Win 10 versions. There is going to have to be a huge critical mass to get people shifting their catalogues from one ecosystem to the next. The amount of necessary double dipping is mind boggling.

It's not the 1990s anymore, and there are several major businesses utilizing win32 heavily. Any attempt for Microsoft to somehow neuter win32 in a way that would nerf Steam permanently would lead to several massive lawsuits. A big one for example is Adobe. There are many more enterprise players. Anything specifically against Steam would lead to a clear lawsuit from Valve - the app isn't that complicated and you could easily tell if the OS is messing with an app specifically.

Yep lets completely kill the legacy enterprise market, losing our entire business customer base in the process.

I'm always one for being cynical about MS but this is just too ridiculous.

Much more eloquently stated. I don't think IBM, Adobe, Dell, and hundreds of other software companies Microsoft has been trying to lure into a Windows Server, Hyper-V, MSDN, Azure ecosystem are going to respond in kind by breaking tens of billions of dollars of industry so that Windows Store apps are mandated and anything more complex simply doesn't work because Xbox.

 

[LukasTaves]

So? What's an avenue like that, to them? Just another way to keep you in the Microsoft playground. You need to stop assuming they're out for everyone's best interests, Microsoft has proven many times in the past they want the stranglehold on every market they're in. This is nothing new to them, it's just another tactic that people are only just catching onto.

So? Did you read the post you are replying to?

Let me quote for you so you don't have to look:

How exactly do you think Microsoft is locking down the PC to make it a closed platform?

There are two programming interfaces for Windows and every app has to choose one of them. Every Steam app - every PC game for the past few decades - has used Win32. It's been both responsible for the vibrant software market we have now, but also for malware. Any program can be a virus. Universal Windows Platform is seen as the antidote to that. It's sandboxed - much more locked down. The risk here is that, if Microsoft convinces everyone to use UWP, then they phase out Win32 apps. If they can succeed in doing that then it's a small leap to forcing all apps and games to be distributed through the Windows store. Once we reach that point, the PC has become a closed platform. It won't be that one day they flip a switch that will break your Steam library - what they're trying to do is a series of sneaky maneauvres. They make it more and more inconvenient to use the old apps, and, simultaneously, they try to become the only source for the new ones.

In other words, the entire raison d'être of the Tim interview is that he fears Ms will lock windows users to only install the software Ms allows and through the store that they allow.

That they don't play fair when it comes to competition is nothing new, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about XD

y'all still engaging with LukasTaves, huh?

I suggest y'all check post history and stop wasting your time

Please do point ou what in my post history "blacklists" me.

And while you are at it provide just a single possible scenario where Ms can succeed in locking the windows platform.

 

[AmuroChan]

I don't pretend to have any expertise on this, but it seems like he's not the only developer that feels this way.

 

[schaft0620]

It's complete bullshit

 

[Zedox]

There's no overt evidence to it (beyond the dream of any capitalistic company), but MS have made zero in the way of changing their trajectory from years/decades gone by, and this time they've got the worst incarnation of their walled garden yet.

Actually, that would be Windows 8. It is the platform that doesn't let users distribute and download UWP apps outside of the Windows store. Windows 10 does allow that.

 

[EmiPrime]

The real kicker is that they even put their own recent game Shadow Complex Remastered in the Windows Store...they should know better than to support something so evil!

Shadow Complex is on the Windows Store because of a contractual obligation.

https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/757990524812865536

 

[TemplaerDude]

So? Did you read the post you are replying to?

Let me quote for you so you don't have to look:



In other words, the entire raison d'être of the Tim interview is that he fears Ms will lock windows users to only install the software Ms allows and through the store that they allow.

That they don't play fair when it comes to competition is nothing new, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about XD



Please do point ou what in my post history "blacklists" me.

And while you are at it provide just a single possible scenario where Ms can succeed in locking the windows platform.

I'll be honest, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about anymore ha ha. I thought there was someone about lack of precedent and I'd argue otherwise but I don't know anymore.

 

[Pathfinder]

I want to say he's being paranoid because I depend on Win32 apps running on Windows for my job. I would prefer to not be uprooted.

 

[low-G]

There certainly are a lot of ignorant & dismissive people in this thread aren't there? Tim Sweeney knows more about you than computers, guaranteed. To say otherwise is idiotic. I think people are obviously having a fear kneejerk reaction too.

That said, while MS will try such things, I hope along with most of us in this thread that this never comes to pass. It'd be pretty hard to successfully pull off, even for MS. It would certainly shit up a LOT of things...

 

[tiredheadcrab]

There certainly are a lot of ignorant & dismissive people in this thread aren't there? Tim Sweeney knows more about you than computers, guaranteed. To say otherwise is idiotic. I think people are obviously having a fear kneejerk reaction too.

That said, while MS will try such things, I hope along with most of us in this thread that this never comes to pass. It'd be pretty hard to successfully pull off, even for MS. It would certainly shit up a LOT of things...

And to say that MS is actively making Steam run like shit with no proof is conspiracy theory territory. He cant back his claims up.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Not going to put anything behind any big corporation, but I'm not gonna side with either or till more evidence/proof can be provided. Till then, I'll sit back watch and act accordingly as more develops. It's also not surprising MS wants UWP to succeed, time progresses things change...the old is eventually faded out...nothing new.

It's his opinion and he has a right to speak it, but I think he can go about doing it better then he has been. Oh well.

 

[Bonfires Down]

Tim Sweeney knows more about you than computers, guaranteed.

That's kinda creepy

 

[~Kinggi~]

I have a lot of money invested in Steam. You tell me MS is gonna fuck that, then fuck them.

 

[Trup1aya]

There certainly are a lot of ignorant & dismissive people in this thread aren't there? Tim Sweeney knows more about you than computers, guaranteed. To say otherwise is idiotic. I think people are obviously having a fear kneejerk reaction too.

That said, while MS will try such things, I hope along with most of us in this thread that this never comes to pass. It'd be pretty hard to successfully pull off, even for MS. It would certainly shit up a LOT of things...

Knowing a lot about computers doesn't give him a pass to make up shit. It doesn't take an ignorant or dismissive person to realize he doesn't actually know of any plot to sabotages Steam.... He even admits it!

We all hope none of this will come to pass.

 

[Kibbles]

Tim giving Giorgio Tsoukalos a run for his money

 

[patchday]

isnt gears of war still Xbox/PC exclusive? It always feels weird to read excerpts from these interviews knowing Epic Games has a partnership with Microsoft.

 

[ghostjoke]

Actually, that would be Windows 8. It is the platform that doesn't let users distribute and download UWP apps outside of the Windows store. Windows 10 does allow that.

This is true.

After so much trying to give UWP a chance (since first beta), I've signed off on going near until it actually has a purpose - I'm not holding out hope. Part of me is still stuck back there in regards to everything about it. Though considering how side loading works and the options are located, the store is basically the only thing for your average user - classic MS it's-there-but-you're-gonna-work-for-it. And if it doesn't have the auto-update support of the store, what's the real point really except restrictions? Correct me if what I'm reading on Google is incorrect. I'm not delving too deep, but I'd quite like to see that Microsoft are actually making meaningful changes.

I still see Microsoft having a very exact idea of how software should work and Win32 is in the way of their new dream. I'm not on board with Sweeny's doomsday scenario, but I'm damn worried about what Windows 10 will be like in 5 years. A lack of support can be just as damaging as intentional sabotage, and MS are Gods of this, especially in the gaming sphere. Make UWP on par with Win32, then we can talk about it becoming a successor.

 

[AxeMan]

UWP is completely unnecessary on a PC. If MS made it the only way to get software onto their OS then what you have is no longer a PC but another MS console.

I'm in the boat of never going to use the MS store at all

 

[D4Danger]

isnt gears of war still Xbox/PC exclusive? It always feels weird to read excerpts from these interviews knowing Epic Games has a partnership with Microsoft.

Microsoft owns the Gears ip now

 

[Zedox]

This article pretty much sums up my feelings towards the topic.