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[boiled goose]

Wouldn't that be illegal?

 

[FyreWulff]

I think Valve does a pretty good job of making Steam buggy on their own

They have nobody working against them on Linux and the client there is a shitshow.

 

[Blam]

I think Valve does a pretty good job of making Steam buggy on their own

The client is already shit so m$ doesn't need to do anything.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

SHHH don't bring reason into this argument based on facts and business agreements. Instead we should speculate endlessly based on nothing like sweeney

Good thing Epic doesn't really make much in the way of games anymore or there would be a real problem

The real kicker is that they even put their own recent game Shadow Complex Remastered in the Windows Store...they should know better than to support something so evil!

 

[Blam]

The real kicker is that they even put their own recent game Shadow Complex Remastered in the Windows Store...they should know better than to support something so evil!

Oh no dont mention that to him he will flip.

 

[LordRaptor]

I'm not sure Tim Sweeney actually releasing products on the system he is warning against is the damning indictment that he is a tinfoil hat crazy with a personal vendetta who has no idea what hes talking about that you think it is.

 

[QaaQer]

There's absolutely no precedent for Ms to try locking windows at all, nothing in their history suggest that and to claim as such is completely unfounded.

I beg to differ. They have a history of trying to minimize or eliminate competition in order to drive up margins like all ginormous corporations.

 

[CertifiedFP]

That was Gaben...though in his defence he has been silent this time around when it has been obvious microsoft isn't doing that. I bet there have been a lot of conversations with steam about the owa implementation.

Gaben's silence is probably because talking about this topic will only serve to draw attention to how SteamOS ended up being a dud.

 

[Alfredo]

I believe it.

I swear Apple purposefully breaks older versions of iOS to force you to upgrade to a newer version that won't run well on your device. And then there's no way to downgrade, so it's either get stuck with a slow phone or buy a new iPhone.

So Microsoft doing software sabotage, I'd believe it.

 

[QaaQer]

I'm not sure Tim Sweeney actually releasing products on the system he is warning against is the damning indictment that he is a tinfoil hat crazy with a personal vendetta who has no idea what hes talking about that you think it is.

welp, cant argue with that.

 

[Mihalis0013]

Why is it anytime Microsoft does anything, everyone assumes it's 100% related to games, Xbox vs Playstation vs Steam?

UWP is being pushed extremely hard in Enterprise as well.

I think people spend way too much time caught up in console wars and forget that Xbox is a small piece of a giant company, which by the way, several board members have suggested they sell off. So I highly doubt that they're sitting around planning Win 10 updates around how to destroy Steam.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Windows already dropped DOS compatibility, and win95/98 compatibility, and XP compatibility. Making running them on Windows 10 a pain in the ass. And you think Tim is wrong?

I think the natural evolution of the system that drops support for increasingly old things unless aided by something like DOSBox... is a very different thing than worrying about Steam specifically being targeted today. It's to be expected that 10 years from now Windows, Steam, and any other programs we use will be significantly different than today's forms.

Any one remember Netscape Navigator? You probably couldn't be reading this forum without the contributions they made to the web and they are gone now because of Internet Explorer's monopoly. (United States v. Microsoft Corp.)
It could happen again to Valve.

MS competed with the commercial Netscape Navigator by making sure every Windows user had their own free version of the product. But what's the equivalent move they can make here? Windows Store is already a basic part of Windows and has been for years. Steam isn't a product but a service that starts just as free as Windows Store, with the exception that it's not already sitting on screen with a fresh install of Windows.

 

[MaxLevel]

I think it is highly likely that Microsoft wants to push users towards the Microsoft Store, and has been trying since the launch of Windows 8.

It's not just Tim Sweeny, Gabe Newell expressed similar fears years ago and made a push for gaming on Linux because of that.

I think the question is more how far Microsoft is willing to tighten the thumbscrews to achieve this goal.

Releasing a free "Home" version of Windows without Win32 Support would not hurt their enterprise business all that much and probably be accepted by many consumers who only use their Browser and MS Office.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

Why is it anytime Microsoft does anything, everyone assumes it's 100% related to games, Xbox vs Playstation vs Steam?

UWP is being pushed extremely hard in Enterprise as well.

I think people spend way too much time caught up in console wars and forget that Xbox is a small piece of a giant company, which by the way, several board members have suggested they sell off. So I highly doubt that they're sitting around planning Win 10 updates around how to destroy Steam.

No board members have suggested anything other than the rumored Steven Elop meeting who is no longer at the company.

 

[aeolist]

as nutty as targeting steam specifically sounds i still haven't seen anyone really refute the idea that win32 compatibility will probably only exist in pro/enterprise windows licenses as soon as microsoft can manage it

 

[Doikor]

why would you force a touchscreen paradigm onto desktops and servers?

Not part of UWP really.

why would you design hardware that no longer functions for its intended purpose if it cannot connect the internet in a 24 hour period?

What? Never hear of such an limitation.

why would you put advertising telemetry into an OS people pay for?

Where is the proof that the its collecting advertising telemetry? What it actually collects is hardware information (similar to steam hardware survey), installed applications and usage statistics, hardware driver crash information and some "usage" behavior (examples: how much you pin stuff into start menu, how much users use alt-tab, etc.) with the aim of making sure their UX efforts go to the right place. None this really has anything to do with advertising. And the data is anonymized (as in they cannot connect data to specific user) like any properly working telemetry system should.

why would you put performance desktop software on an appstore?

Why not? I mean it just gives users more choices which means more competition which usually ends up better for the end user. If you don't want to buy your "performance desktop software" from an app store then don't. Simple as that.

I think us gamers are thinking that we are a much bigger user base for microsoft then we actually are. The real money microsoft has is in enterprise and the whole support chain that goes with that (Azure, .NET, Visual Studio, etc)

Bill Gates didn't become the richest man alive because microsoft plays fair. Microsoft's history of questionable cutthroat business tactics speak for itself. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it's Microsofts history. This is just how they do business. The only difference between now and the 90s is that Microsoft knows not to get caught. That and Microsoft is a person now. They can spend unlimited amounts of money lobbying. There is no more antitrust laws. Microsoft will likely never be caught again.

Thanks Citizens United.

Back when microsoft did most of their shadies shit everyone was doing some very shady stuff. Its just that microsoft won. (there are some crazy stories from the commercial software world from the 80/90s if you google around a bit). And in a world where they get fined half a billion dollars for failing to include a browser selection choice box I doubt they would ever risk doing something as crazy as locking down win32 and disabling side loading of UWP apps. EU (and the US DoJ) would destroy them.

as nutty as targeting steam specifically sounds i still haven't seen anyone really refute the idea that win32 compatibility will probably only exist in pro/enterprise windows licenses as soon as microsoft can manage it

Other then very likely lose them 10s if not 100s of millions of users. Yeah they would never risk that.

This is Microsoft. The company that everyone is blaming for not innovating and being stagnant. And now you people think that they would risk their whole personal use OS market just to fuck with steam?

 

[Mihalis0013]

No board members have suggested anything other than the rumored Steven Elop meeting who is no longer at the company.

It's possible I'm remembering wrong, but when Satya Nadella was taking over I seem to recall lots of chatter about it being discussed on Windows Weekly and iirc there were some investors pushing hard for it to be sold off.

Maybe I'm confusing the two and if so I apologize. But the gist of my post remains that Xbox is a small piece of Microsoft so they likely aren't sitting around making decisions strictly to destroy Steam.

Having said that, I also agree with people who say it's obvious Microsoft is pushing people to their store. I don't think they're trying to hide that at all.

 

[SOR5]

Shit I just forgot

You can sideload UWP apps.

Put the sideload protection off by default, and not only are developers able to freely distribute UWP without any involvement on the Windows Store, the install process would be identical to Win32

And then theres the fact that retailers can freely sell Play Anywhere codes, meaning that if you do have to use the Windows Store for games, you can buy a code from third-parties and not Valve just like Steam.

So even though UWP didnt pose a threat to Win32's existence in the first place, Microsoft doesnt even have 100% jurisdiction over how and where you access UWP's. Therefore in the fantasy scenario that Win32 does suddenly die off the face off the earth (it wont, at all) the walled garden is more like a fucking fence. Turn off the flimsy bit of sideload security for good and in terms of access its identical to Win32.

This doesnt remove all my grievances with UWP at all, I have many, but whatever Sweeneys referring to has so many gaping holes that not only were his theories presented with zero evidence, he's actually got evidence stacked on top of him that proves otherwise varying from common sense to actual policies.

 

[LukasTaves]

I beg to differ. They have a history of trying to minimize or eliminate competition in order to drive up margins like all ginormous corporations.

They surely do, but that never came from blocking users to use only the software they provided.

To be more clearer:

Ms making win32 shit, forcing people to uwp and then surprise! You can only install apps from us is simply a stupid proposition that never ever will happen.

Ms making uwp attractive for steam, game developers, and users, and once they get their support making moves that could push steam out like adding things to uwp that only works for store apps, or release new SDKs first to store developers so the new games always comes first to the store is completely possible and Ms has shown history for that.

The latter scenario is the embrace extend extinguish strategy, the first is a delusion that doesn't even make sense for Ms to attempt.

 

[Irminsul]

Yes, they are accusations, presumably to motivate MS to stop taking those actions.

But Sweeney is saying MS is actively sabotaging Steam (as in: the client) right now, at this moment. And that they'll try to make Steam (as in: the client) run worse. That's just stupid.

 

[Nzyme32]

Gaben's silence is probably because talking about this topic will only serve to draw attention to how SteamOS ended up being a dud.

It's hardly a dud. There was no attempt to make some sort of massive OS with massive audience. As a "get out of jail free card" they describe in the event Windows doesn't go their open way, it's relatively solid. Their move resulted in Linux compatibility being put into the leading game engines to the point where now plenty of games get pushed through Linux vs before. Vulkan is where the bulk of the work is going at the moment and is a certainly a needed step. They still update it apparently, but they have no need to have development go any faster till something goes wrong with Windows. Linux / SteamOS won't go far at all for many years with their pace, and it doesn't really need to.

as nutty as targeting steam specifically sounds i still haven't seen anyone really refute the idea that win32 compatibility will probably only exist in pro/enterprise windows licenses as soon as microsoft can manage it

It could happen, but with all of this stuff it is all could / maybe etc and it can't really be argued another way.

 

[univbee]

There's absolutely no precedent for Ms to try locking windows at all, nothing in their history suggest that and to claim as such is completely unfounded.

It's slightly different but remember that Microsoft force-integrated IE into Windows and would penalize OEM's if they included rival browsers on their stock OS image. People wanted a way to separate IE from Windows for a very long time (security and performance being main reasons) but never really got their wish.

 

[aeolist]

Other then very likely lose them 10s if not 100s of millions of users. Yeah they would never risk that.

This is Microsoft. The company that everyone is blaming for not innovating and being stagnant. And now you people think that they would risk their whole personal use OS market just to fuck with steam?

but how big is the non-professional market these days? it's definitely not a growth sector which is what businesses like microsoft really want, and it's not a steady source of revenue now that they're basically giving home windows licenses away for free.

the only way they're getting money from non-pro users anymore is by showing them ads or selling them software on the store. win32 in that space gets them nothing.

 

[LukasTaves]

Shit I just forgot

You can sideload UWP apps.

Put the sideload switch was on by default,and not only are developers able to freely distribute UWP without any involvement on the Windows store, the install process would be identical to Win32

And then theres the fact that retailers can freely sell Play Anywhere codes, meaning that if you do have to use the Windows Store for games, you can buy a code from third-parties and not Valve just like Steam.

So even though UWP didnt pose a threat to Win32's existence in the first place, Microsoft doesnt even have 100% jurisdiction over how and where you access UWP's. Therefore in the fantasy scenario that Win32 does suddenly die off the face off the earth (it wont, at all) the walled garden is more like a fucking fence.

This doesnt remove all my grievances with UWP at all, I have many, but whatever Sweeneys referring to has so many gaping holes that not only were his theories presented with zero evidence, he's actually got evidence stacked on top of him that proves otherwise varying from common sense to actual policies.

He acknowledges all that. But he fears that since windows is Ms os they can just change their mind and flip a switch so apps can no longer be installed from other sources that are not the store. Back at build his response was: Great, Ms addressed everything I had concern with, but I want them to make a public commitment that this will never change.

I can see where's coming from, no one wants to be at the hands of the will of the platform holder. However I don't think there's any possible scenario where ms can just lock windows down.

 

[LukasTaves]

It's slightly different but remember that Microsoft force-integrated IE into Windows and would penalize OEM's if they included rival browsers on their stock OS image. People wanted a way to separate IE from Windows for a very long time (security and performance being main reasons) but never really got their wish.

Penalizing OEMs is a shifty tactic that Ms definitely resorted to.

Not willing to separating the software that Ms bundles from the os however, I see no problem there. People might want to have ie gone for any valid reason (including not wanting them), but I think that kind of bundling should be allowed. Specially for something as crucial as a rendering engine, that even their development platform relies on.

 

[SOR5]

He acknowledges all that. But he fears that since windows is Ms os they can just change their mind and flip a switch so apps can no longer be installed from other sources that are not the store. Back at build his response was: Great, Ms addressed everything I had concern with, but I want them to make a public commitment that this will never change.

I can see where's coming from, no one wants to be at the hands of the will of the platform holder. However I don't think there's any possible scenario where ms can just lock windows down.

So he's carrying on with the wacky doomsday scenarios and accusations because he didnt get a pinky promise?

Jesus Tims such an intelligent guy, but this I dont get.

 

[spazimoose]

Win32 will continue to have critical parts of the API break or be depreciated. UWP will continue to gain exclusive features. Don't be surprised when DX13 has UWP only feature or is eventually UWP only. The future of windows is a closed platform. Microsoft is going to take their cut of all software purchase on their platform or no one is. The app store is coming and it's taking no prisoners. Windows 10 wasnt free, it was payed for with the freedom of the platform.

 

[LukasTaves]

as nutty as targeting steam specifically sounds i still haven't seen anyone really refute the idea that win32 compatibility will probably only exist in pro/enterprise windows licenses as soon as microsoft can manage it

Even for end users they will never offset win32 until developers and users can do in uwp everything they do on win32. If uwp covers these scenarios then yeah, win32 will be replaced, but then no one will care and it will not be a bad thing.

Any other scenario where Ms just forces users to drop win32 simply won't work.

 

[Doikor]

but how big is the non-professional market these days? it's definitely not a growth sector which is what businesses like microsoft really want, and it's not a steady source of revenue now that they're basically giving home windows licenses away for free.

the only way they're getting money from non-pro users anymore is by showing them ads or selling them software on the store. win32 in that space gets them nothing.

Hard to say exactly. But the segment (More Personal Computing) that OEM and personal windows licenses are in made 3.5billion profit Q2 this year. That does include Xbox and Windows phone, surface and bing too though. Azure (cloud) made almost 5 billion profit and office/business sales 6.4 billion profits.

https://www.microsoft.com/investor/earningsandfinancials/financials/FY16/Q2/SegmentRevenues.aspx

edit: As a side not it is possible to make a .msi installer that installs a UWP app (.appx) with a double click with a "traditional" single admin right access check using something like https://github.com/aL3891/AppxInstaller

With something like that the user experience of installing an UWP side loaded app doesn't really differ from installing a traditional win32 app. Though the no modding without the app supporting etc. limitations would still apply.

 

[aeolist]

Even for end users they will never offset win32 until developers and users can do in uwp everything they do on win32. If uwp covers these scenarios then yeah, win32 will be replaced, but then no one will care and it will not be a bad thing.

Any other scenario where Ms just forces users to drop win32 simply won't work.

uwp will never be able to do everything win32 can, by design

and i still think they'll be trying to deprecate win32

 

[LukasTaves]

So he's carrying on with the wacky doomsday scenarios and accusations because he didnt get a pinky promise?

Jesus Tims such an intelligent guy, but this I dont get.

To be fair, it seems that interview was made ages ago, before Ms came out on stage and addressed these points. He does say he is still concerned though, because in his mind the only thing that prevents Ms from being the bad guy is their own will.

 

[Hockeymac18]

He acknowledges all that. But he fears that since windows is Ms os they can just change their mind and flip a switch so apps can no longer be installed from other sources that are not the store. Back at build his response was: Great, Ms addressed everything I had concern with, but I want them to make a public commitment that this will never change.

I can see where's coming from, no one wants to be at the hands of the will of the platform holder. However I don't think there's any possible scenario where ms can just lock windows down.

This is what I was saying on the previous page. We can all argue "what ifs" all day - and hell, it's even possible that people at MS want this. But that doesn't matter.

What matters is will (and more importantly can) MS actually do this? It just seems like business suicide for MS - not to mention the DOJ/EU implications, which I'm certain they don't want to get into again.

I have yet to see any points made here suggest that this is likely to happen (imminent drop of Win32 support, all apps going forward must be UWP, and these UWP apps must be locked to the Windows store...).

 

[therealbigrich]

Every time I think about what MS may possibly do it just makes me think even if they do something that hurts the consumer hell I'm sure other options will open up. Ppl will go to Linux and everybody would be happy then

 

[Gestault]

as nutty as targeting steam specifically sounds i still haven't seen anyone really refute the idea that win32 compatibility will probably only exist in pro/enterprise windows licenses as soon as microsoft can manage it

Did that idea actually come from anywhere reliable? It sounds made-up.

 

[aeolist]

Hard to say exactly. But the segment (More Personal Computing) that OEM and personal windows licenses are in made 3.5billion profit Q2 this year. That does include Xbox and Windows phone, surface and bing too though. Azure (cloud) made almost 5 billion profit and office/business sales 6.4 billion profits.

https://www.microsoft.com/investor/earningsandfinancials/financials/FY16/Q2/SegmentRevenues.aspx

more personal computing includes all windows licensing, they don't break out how much they make on home vs pro/enterprise. they're also making the home version free or very cheap to OEMs, it's not a major source of revenue for them.

 

[Doikor]

more personal computing includes all windows licensing, they don't break out how much they make on home vs pro/enterprise.

Googling a bit yeah looks like volume licesing is also included. http://revenuesandprofits.com/how-microsoft-makes-money-understanding-microsoft-business-model/

they're also making the home version free or very cheap to OEMs, it's not a major source of revenue for them.

Well the money is made from corporate relies on end users knowing how to use windows (thus having it at home/school/everywhere) which relies on users using it which makes potentially getting rid of the users by crippling win32 insane. And this is actually something that can be seen these days. Seen new hires who really can't use windows as they have mostly just used android/iOS phones/tablets for personal computing. Thus microsoft trying to get in on that but kinda failed with the windows phone (though I really liked it when I had my windows phone phone for a couple years. just no apps )

 

[wanderingprostheyltite]

Sweeney seems like he's turned into a bit of a conspiracy nut lite in the past year or so. He had some valid points about the Oculus exclusivity stuff but the general MS fud reeks of "look at me". I know he's the honco of Epic still but what are his actual duties there now re: projects and UE4? Seems like Tim needs a project lol.

 

[Doikor]

Sweeney seems like he's turned into a bit of a conspiracy nut lite in the past year or so. He had some valid points about the Oculus exclusivity stuff but the general MS fud reeks of "look at me". I know he's the honco of Epic still but what are his actual duties there now re: projects and UE4? Seems like Tim needs a project lol.

I though he has been in the R&D stuff for quite a while now. Working on new experiental stuff that could potentially be added into UE4 or become UE5 I guess?

 

[LukasTaves]

uwp will never be able to do everything win32 can, by design

and i still think they'll be trying to deprecate win32

I think it will. The current design is so as it is because they are targeting user level applications. Eventually Ms will want to develop only in uwp and then uwp will have to support development for example, a uwp visual studio.

Development is precisely why Ms can't get away from locking windows down. If they make it so a normal user with a regular license can't develop on windows that's a consumer they lost, and they might also lost the consumers of this developer application.

They more and more are making it so it's easier and cheaper for people developing on windows, so I wouldn't say they would counter that by locking away development to only enterprise versions.

And if you can develop on windows it means you can run anything you want anyway you want.

 

[wanderingprostheyltite]

I though he has been in the R&D stuff for quite a while now. Working on new experiental stuff that could potentially be added into UE4 or become UE5 I guess?

Well that's encouraging, he should do lots more of that and stay away from the journos and social media for a spell

 

[aeolist]

Googling a bit yeah looks like volume licesing is also included. http://revenuesandprofits.com/how-microsoft-makes-money-understanding-microsoft-business-model/


Well the money is made from corporate relies on end users knowing how to use windows (thus having it at home/school/everywhere) which relies on users using it which makes potentially getting rid of the users by crippling win32 insane.

they've been giving away enterprise licenses for educational institutions for years now, i don't see that changing

and in this scenario win32 is maintained for legacy app compatibility and they'll be focusing their educational and developer efforts on uwp evangelizing anyway. plus the windows shell is what it is whether you're using a uwp app or some line of business win32 app that you'll need training for anyway.

os familiarity is not a concern.

 

[Mexen]

Valve already does a good enough job at this as it is tbh

 

[Thebeardofknowledge]

There's absolutely no precedent for Ms to try locking windows at all, nothing in their history suggest that and to claim as such is completely unfounded.

Ms will definitely try to leverage the fact that they own the platform to make the store more successful than steam, but removing the ability of users to install steam is stupid and even if they were dumb enough to try they couldn't pull it off due to the open nature of windows.

Lol wut ?

You must be a young buck to not have witnessed first hand all of MS's Predatory Practices in the 80's , 90's and 2000's huh ?

 

[shoreu]

Okay;
True or False - MS would like to have a walled garden they are sole controller of.

It is extremely difficult to believe that they do not want that, yes?

So if we accept that that is true - that they have motive for doing that - what steps might be taken to achieve that?
Can you align actions they have taken with the aforesaid hypothetical steps required to achieve that goal?
If yes, then suspicions that they are acting towards achieving that goal are in fact warranted.

What company wouldn't want that? Do you think that if google or Apple had a chance to wipe out all competition they wouldn't?

But are they activity pursuing this neither me nor your can provide solid proof all you guys can do is point to "they tried this before" and UMP is closed

 

[LukasTaves]

Lol wut ?

You must be a young buck to not have witnessed first hand all of MS's Predatory Practices in the 80's , 90's and 2000's huh ?

If they really didn't allowed windows users to install netscape then I'm indeed very young to remember, because I distinctly remember using IE to download and install netscape.

Or perhaps you should re read what I wrote?

 

[SappYoda]

I think the natural evolution of the system that drops support for increasingly old things unless aided by something like DOSBox...

The problem is that uwp is not an evolution of win32, but a completely different platform by design.

is a very different thing than worrying about Steam specifically being targeted today.

He was talking about win32 before he was asked specifically about steam, and steam beign a win32 application would get progressively worse through win10 patches as the rest of the available win32 software.

It's to be expected that 10 years from now Windows, Steam, and any other programs we use will be significantly different than today's forms.

That is true. Maybe we will be using a different os altogether.

 

[Guess Who]

y'all, even apple isn't dumb enough to wall off the mac

microsoft would not only piss off their entire developer base and a billion companies that sell windows software by forcing everything through the windows store, and not only would they drive away all their business customers that depend on old-ass software (which is a lot) and kill like 99% of the reasons people use windows by totally abandoning win32 (and thus all the bajillions of programs people depend on that are built with win32 and are clearly not transitioning to UWP any time soon), but antitrust regulators (especially in the EU) would eat them alive

 

[TemplaerDude]

If they really didn't allowed windows users to install netscape then I'm indeed very young to remember, because I distinctly remember using IE to download and install netscape.

Or perhaps you should re read what I wrote?

Microsoft has a long, storied history of trying to gain a monopoly wherever they can. This is not something new to them.

 

[LukasTaves]

MS supports UWA, neglects Win32 because it suits their business goals; do the math.

Its not a matter of them sabotaging the API, its just letting progress and natural obsolescence take its course. Their OS, their rules.

Exactly, but remember since it's an OS and a API they create why just not remove the bits from win32 that doesn't suit their needs?

If their ultimate goal was to reduce control from users and control software installs they didn't need a new api for that, they created the OS and win32, they could just as much lock win32 installs, without changing a single thing on every executable already available I might add.

 

[LukasTaves]

Microsoft has a long, storied history of trying to gain a monopoly wherever they can. This is not something new to them.

Yeah, but never to try that monopoly by simply man handling their users to only install the software they allow.