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[SOR5]

I can't even tell what's sarcasm anymore.

It baffles me that so many of the people agreeing with Sweeney are completely ignoring enterprise, which is the reason I cannot take these claims seriously. In the grand scheme of things gaming and even the Windows store are not very significant to the Microsoft that exists today.

Both enterprise and the Windows Store are relevant to their plans
They want both, but that means Win32 and UWP will always co-exist.

 

[Malakai]

Steam is pretty buggy on my PC right now. It is very slow or have a crap ton of hangups.

 

[Trup1aya]

I don't believe I have ever accused another poster of being a shill, despite being routinely called out personally as "a hater" because I do not believe I am by default always right (although there's a surprisingly high correlation there) nor do I make my arguments based on anything other than the arguments pothers make.



Promises aren't worth anything.
I don't care how many times an MS PR spokesperson reaffirms their deep seated love and commitment for PC gaming, I care how many times specifics are implemented, and how they are implemented.

As of right now, the time and date of this post, literally none of the concerns Tim Sweeney originally raised have been satisfactorily addressed.
There is no current working resolution on an off the shelf new PC.

It is hugely dishonest to claim that all of his concerns were addressed in March, because nothing has been implemented, and words - especially the words of PR - are exceedingly cheap.

so you think it's perfectly acceptable behavior to make accusations, without any insider knowledge of MS corporate plans? And the justification for these actions is that the required software updates have yet to be released?

Ok

MS has laid out there future plans to the very developers who will be effected by them. Is it logical to say these plans are all lies simply because the software update hasn't released yet?

 

[SPDIF]

Q - You've previously said some pretty harsh words in regards to Microsoft about monopolizing game development on PCs. You wrote an op-ed with The Guardian. Do you still feel strongly about that?

A - I'm not a general critic of Microsoft. I just have one specific concern. ...my view is that Windows 10 is an awesome operating system, it's the best yet. Windows Store is a good store, and it's great to have another source of games out there and it's great that Microsoft will be bringing so many of its Xbox games to PC. I think all of these are great steps forward for the PC. My sole concern, and it's a big one, is with UWP (Universal Windows Platform). Microsoft creating a framework by which they could very easily shut off the PC as an open platform in the future. There's a real risk if developers adopt this technology widely and Microsoft flips one switch and suddenly you can't install games from sources other than Microsoft on some versions of Windows. That's a fear I continue to have. It's the reason that Epic has not adopted that, the UWP technology. Despite feeling that there are some great technical features in it. It's a safer Windows API that prevents a ...It runs in a sandbox like iOS and prevents applications from behaving like a virus, yeah. But my view is that Microsoft has to make clear commitments about where this technology will go in the future, if they want developers to adopt it; because if they do not do that, it would be foolish for us to go down that path, which basically gives them all of the rope they need to hang us.

This is perfectly fine, and much more reasonable than what he said to Edge, but it's the same thing he's been saying since March. MS talked about his concerns at Build, and are releasing a rather large update a week today that should alleviate his main concern. What other sort of "clear commitments" does he want?

 

[00ich]

You can bet that 99% of the Fortune 500 companies and multinational organizations are going to make very very sure that Microsoft keeps Win32 support in, because all of those companies are in all likelihood running at least a few (more likely several) internal apps that make Big Rigs: Over The Road Racing look competently coded. This is software that is so specialized it effectively makes its company a monopoly in a specific industry, with guaranteed clientele no matter how shitty their software is and how many hoops they have to make their clients jump through in terms of disabling tons of security features in the OS and shit like that, because in these industries not having the software in question is simply not an option.

In all likelihood, big enough companies will have an SA subscription in order to run a specific locked-down version of Windows that they have to ensure doesn't change much. This means they are paying Microsoft a phenomenal amount of money (especially collectively) every year as part of a subscription, because, again, their business depends on it. Microsoft pulling Win32 support across the board all of a sudden, if their shareholders would even allow them to kill that golden goose (there is essentially 0% chance of this), would result in massive business implications to the point where I could flat-out see specific governments imposing that Microsoft keep in Win32 support or face huge fines and other sanctions. The governments might even force their hand and require older Win32 OSes be sold and supported, like what happened with Windows XP (you could still buy an XP machine from Dell until surprisingly recently, 2012 I think?) and Windows 7 (can still get a PC with Windows 7 from basically all the major vendors if you ask for it)

They may add multiple security related fixes and "fixes" that annoy and confuse ordinary people but are easily configurable for enterprise IT. Like a dialog when ever an untrusted application connects with an unknown host using an unknown protocol. That's totally for your security and won't break online gaming at all (if configured correctly using bugfree drivers).

 

[SOR5]

I also want to say its absolutely fine for Tim Sweeney to assert people to be cautious about UWP, and what it COULD lead to

It is actually fine is someone warns what Google COULD do with all the boundless data they have.

It is actually fine is someone warns what Apple COULD do with...removing headphone jacks or whatever.

But you dont go the full mile and accuse people of it, when your list of evidence is

• A suicidal business plan you yourself came up with
• Judgement of character
• The 90's

 

[DeadManWalking]

Ms should fix win10 first. Its pretty bugy for me lately.

 

[DarkConfidant]

Valve already does a good enough job at this as it is tbh

lmfao yes!


If MS has plans to make Win 10 worse, I'm sure it has nothing to do with Steam, and everything to do with MS making shitty software.

Great Steam support on Windows probably keeps a good number of users on the OS.

 

[QuantumBro]

If only I could believe that Microsoft is competent enough to go through with a plan like this.

 

[stan423321]

I can't even tell what's sarcasm anymore.

It baffles me that so many of the people agreeing with Sweeney are completely ignoring enterprise, which is the reason I cannot take these claims seriously. In the grand scheme of things gaming and even the Windows store are not very significant to the Microsoft that exists today.

It's very simple. Enterprise involves existing programs. Existing programs need to keep working. They don't need new features. Besides, there're separate enterprise versions of Windows. So they can simply don't touch these.

 

[Malio]

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-competitive practices before, I don't see why everyone is suddenly saying OMG Not Good Guy Microsoft! on these accusations by Sweeney. It's very plausible they could do what he says...and I'm keeping my eye on 'em.

 

[JeffG]

I don't know why people think this is unreal, Apple is doing the same thing with Spotify but whatever...

Because of billions of lines of code written for millions of companies across the world says it will never happen.


Games are insignificant when looking at this. (Which is why 12 yr old gamers on a website debating this is so funny)

 

[CrazE]

I feel so embarrassed for this guy. Let me grab more tin foil for him.

 

[Memorabilia]

Lol

 

[SOR5]

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-competitive practices before, I don't see why everyone is suddenly saying OMG Not Good Guy Microsoft! on these accusations by Sweeney. It's very plausible they could do what he says...and I'm keeping my eye on 'em.

Nobodys using morality as an argument

Theyre using the fact that removing Win32 is the most obnoxiously stupid business move they can make that would be impossible to pull off anyway, And yeah you can say Microsoft have made stupid business moves before, but this isnt "Kinect and Online DRM" stupid, this is new heights of unbelievably stupid. Like "PS4 firmware 4.0 has completely removed support for any controllers, please imagine what games would be like from now on" stupid, or "Nintendo will now only make games for the N-Gage" stupid

 

[univbee]

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-competitive practices before, I don't see why everyone is suddenly saying OMG Not Good Guy Microsoft! on these accusations by Sweeney. It's very plausible they could do what he says...and I'm keeping my eye on 'em.

I 100% think someone inside Microsoft might try.

I am 100% sure that the shareholders will have them out on their ass before that idea can come into play.

If I am wrong, I am 100% sure that the EU and other government bodies will basically take everything from them. Remember the EU fined Microsoft 550 million Euros because they forgot to have a browser selection screen for computers with SP1 pre-installed, and that's basically nothing compared to this.

 

[ViviOggi]

I 100% think someone inside Microsoft might try.

I am 100% sure that the shareholders will have them out on their ass before that idea can come into play.

If I am wrong, I am 100% sure that the EU and other government bodies will basically take everything from them. Remember the EU fined Microsoft 550 million Euros because they forgot to have a browser selection screen for computers with SP1 pre-installed, and that's basically nothing compared to this.

"Forgot"

 

[univbee]

"Forgot"

Yeah, that's pretty much what the EU's decision said.

 

[Three]

He seems to have personal issues with MS. Not very professional.

Why exactly would he have a personal issue with them? He is an Unreal engine developer what personal issues would he have with them outside of restrictions he has perhaps faced?

 

[Trup1aya]

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-competitive practices before, I don't see why everyone is suddenly saying OMG Not Good Guy Microsoft! on these accusations by Sweeney. It's very plausible they could do what he says...and I'm keeping my eye on 'em.

People are just asking for proof of the scheme. Previous transgressions are not proof of future ones.

There's a massive difference between being concerned or suspicious, and presenting yours fears as fact.

Tim Sweeney is not lying or telling the truth. He's speculating. and while he has reasons to be suspicious, he ADMITS that he has no proof that these are MSs plans.

 

[GravityMan]

Given MS's past history, I understand Sweeney's concerns. However, he might want to tone it down and choose his words more carefully next time.

Win32 will be here to stay for the foreseeable future, and so will Steam. MS is known for being shady, but they aren't stupid.

 

[Memorabilia]

People are just asking for proof of the scheme. Previous transgressions are not proof of future ones.

True. Which is why we can all have a laugh at the 'tin foil hat' jokes. But, to be fair, past behavior *does* show strong correlation to future behavior. Patterns of maladaptive behavior and recidivism are essentially just as relevant for corporate personhood malfeasance as they are for career criminals. Microsoft has a long history of skirting the law with anti-competitive behavior. It's wise to remember this even as we share a chuckle here.

 

[Doomshine]

Given MS's past history, I understand Sweeney's concerns. However, he might want to tone it down and choose his words more carefully next time.

Win32 will be here to stay for the foreseeable future, and so will Steam. MS is known for being shady, but they aren't stupid.

Maybe, but I'd rather he speaks his mind and keep people on their toes than not speak at all because it may not happen.

 

[Parsnip]

He comes off as a bit of a nutter, but he isn't wrong.

 

[Gxgear]

People think it's paranoia, but I'm still staring at the upgrade to Windows 10 icon in my taskbar.

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

Maybe, but I'd rather he speaks his mind and keep people on their toes than not speak at all because it may not happen.

Nope. In a professional setting, unfounded allegations of malfeasance reflect poorly on their author(s).

"I'm just sayin', we could possibly be in for a bad time" is not enough to make up a sufficient warning.

 

[Frustrated_me]

Hilarious and insightful comment!
Really, just superb and adds so much to the conversation!

What is your reasoning behind why that this incredibly talented and respected industry vet should "go home"?

Tim's worried that OS updates can break Apps. News to Tim, this has been happening with software for ages. His team simply needs to update his App (steam) to work under the new OS (Windows 10) update. Tim is fucking fear mongering hardcore here, there is no evidence, absolutely ZERO that the Microsoft of today is doing anything that Tim is suggesting.

Can you please provide proof of any kind that Microsoft of today is doing what Tim is fear mongering please?

 

[SOR5]

Slowly, over the next 5 years, they will force-patch Windows 10 to make Steam progressively worse and more broken. They'll never completely break it, but will continue to break it until, in five years, people are so fed up that Steam is buggy that the Windows Store seem like an ideal alternative. That's exactly what they did to their previous competitors in other areas. Now they're doing it to Steam. It's only just starting to become visible. Microsoft might not be competent enough to succeed with their plan but they are certainly trying.

Without the useless arguments "theyre shady" or "they did this in the 90's", please provide factual statements that prove this is happening.

Anyone.

 

[PanicFreak]

It seems to me that Valve would have some sort of say in whether or not Steam is a buggy mess on Windows 10.

 

[opticalmace]

Valve should be more concerned about this. Now that Microsoft has set its eyes on Windows gaming I think it's only a matter of time until they start leveraging Windows to their advantage.

Isn't that why Valve developed Steam OS?

 

[Irminsul]

Without the useless arguments "theyre shady" or "they did this in the 90's", please provide factual statements that prove this is happening.

Anyone.

Adding to that, I'd like to read arguments that aren't "but UWP". UWP isn't making Steam run worse.

Even if we'd accept several games becoming UWP-only (not even Windows Store-only) "making Steam worse", where are those "several games"? Outside of MS' own, of course.

 

[LiftWith2Hands]

What's the next move for Valve and Steam. . Is Linux set up to be the best alternative?

 

[dr_rus]

Considering MS supported XP to last year, and still does I'd say MS would like to take care of the past. Also, consider plain users who still want to run old programs who will make 15 conspiracy Facebook posts that ms is taking away all your programs. It's not happening, win32 is staying although unupdated.

How's that DX11 gaming going for ya on XP?

 

[00ich]

It seems to me that Valve would have some sort of say in whether or not Steam is a buggy mess on Windows 10.

They rely heavily an thing like working automated installers for .net and DirectX.
If those happen to be buggy the whole steam experience is pretty bad for users. Anecdotally my DirextX decides to install the wrong versions of some dlls. No game started until I manually replaced system dlls with other versions of the same dlls from a cab file I had to unpack.

 

[Freshmaker]

ms must be starting with your machine first

No. It's a common issue. Look at the Steam support forum for the game.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/310950/discussions/0/357286663681228370/

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

What's the next move for Valve and Steam. . Is Linux set up to be the best alternative?

Gaben knew the writing was on the wall. That's why he's been working on Steam OS and making sure many of the games that come out also work with Linux. I want to say he even talked about this at some point.

 

[Lutherian]

What ?

 

[Labrynian Rebel]

 

[StereoVsn]

Quick question for the users of this thread as it's relevant, anyone work for a company where you still require some old version of IE for an internal app? A company I worked for in mid-2011 just finished a migration to Windows 7 from Windows 2000, but a ton of their internal pages needed IE6 and wouldn't work on anything else, so they had to cut a fat cheque for VMware ThinApp (XP Mode was too slow and unreliable) to get IE6 on Windows 7 alongside IE8 (which I think was also required for some separate stuff at the time). I wouldn't be all that surprised if they still needed it for some things now.

I do but we forced those users to a VDI environment for the specific apps in question that let us isolate the vulnerable browser there and those instances have no internet access and are generally heavy firewalled.

For LTSB, you make a good point, but MS could split LTSB branch off and yank Win32 from the common branch down the line.

 

[Vestal]

the mere suggestion of killing off win32 to kill steam is laughable.

Microsoft makes most of its profit from corporations, and corporations are filled with old win32 apps.


Besides, Steam has been a buggy mess way before Windows 8 or 10 were around.

 

[LordRaptor]

You can bet that 99% of the Fortune 500 companies and multinational organizations are going to make very very sure that Microsoft keeps Win32 support in

Yes, nobody suspects otherwise.
Most PC gamers are not running Enterpise edition Windows however, and it is more than just conceivable that when MS publicly refer to win32 as 'legacy' you could be one patch note away from "deprecated legacy support for Windows Home editions"

 

[Neuromancer]

I 100% think someone inside Microsoft might try.

I am 100% sure that the shareholders will have them out on their ass before that idea can come into play.

If I am wrong, I am 100% sure that the EU and other government bodies will basically take everything from them. Remember the EU fined Microsoft 550 million Euros because they forgot to have a browser selection screen for computers with SP1 pre-installed, and that's basically nothing compared to this.

Shareholders aren't always privy to the secretive inner workings of a company.

 

[Doikor]

Yes, nobody suspects otherwise.
Most PC gamers are not running Enterpise edition Windows however, and it is more than just conceivable that when MS publicly refer to win32 as 'legacy' you could be one patch note away from "deprecated legacy support for Windows Home editions"

I just don't see why they would do that? All it does is move users away from their platform. Anyway with Windows 10 they just expanded the win32 support from inside UWP apps so there would have to be something in the OS answering those calls anyway.

edit: All the Win32 and COM APIs available for UWP apps: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/mt592904.aspx

 

[pj]

As owner of the OS it's a misuse of the notification system. It may or may not be true this week, but that really doesn't matter. They can run all the full page ads or sponsored content in magazines and websites that they like, or even run a huge banner ad when you start up Windows 10.

Should Google also be allowed to hook into Windows services to spy on what other apps are doing (Edge crashes 50% more often than other leading browsers, why not use Chrome?). But then they're not in a position where their competing browser automatically comes installed with the OS. We've pretty much been through this before, when Microsoft decided it was time to cut off Netscape's air supply. They've only recently come out from under anti-trust supervision for that one, yet already seem to falling back to old patterns of behaviour.

Try loading google.com in a non-chrome browser. There is a popup that says "Google works better with Chrome"

How is that any different?

 

[Nzyme32]

Sorry thats all fine and good...but this breaking steam thing is just indefensible. Its FUD clear and simple and has no basis in reality. And the worst part is that Sweeney has to know that as he knows a lot more about Windows and computers than probably anyone on this thread.

But once again, where's the evidence?

Indeed, there isn't anything in that excerpt, so I wouldn't say it is or isn't a thing when he says something along the lines of "we are starting to see that now". Outside of Steam though, there are a lot of very real and frustrating issues in terms of inconveniencing users who are using desktop applications, changing privacy settings, obfuscating choices and even resetting choices previously made.

 

[hwalker84]

This is one of the most absurd things I've read. Force people off of Win32 by making it slower... Please. Making UWP better to the point that it doesn't make much sense to create apps any other way is more like it. People posting a wiki article from 20 years ago need to grow up. This isn't just about gaming. You aren't forcing Bloomberg and Reuters to rewrite all their apps nor are you going to force that platform onto servers. Sorry folks this is tinfoil hat/moon landing conspiracy level crap.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Win7 FTW?

 

[LordRaptor]

I just don't see why they would do that? All it does is move users away from their platform.

MS trying to push something that is absolutely hated by their existing userbase as part of a bigger picture maneuver elsewhere isn't exactly unprecedented though.

why would you force a touchscreen paradigm onto desktops and servers?
why would you design hardware that no longer functions for its intended purpose if it cannot connect the internet in a 24 hour period?
why would you put advertising telemetry into an OS people pay for?
why would you put performance desktop software on an appstore?

 

[The End]

Just like Epic made Paragon progressively worse with updates?

HEyooooo

 

[spazimoose]

I just don't see why they would do that? All it does is move users away from their platform. Anyway with Windows 10 they just expanded the win32 support from inside UWP apps so there would have to be something in the OS answering those calls anyway.

edit: All the Win32 and COM APIs available for UWP apps: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/mt592904.aspx

I think you should read that more carefully friend. "access to the Win32 and COM APIs that are part of the Universal Windows Platform" UWP only supports part of Win32 and extends it with UWP only APIs. Apps will slow be forced to become UWP only. This is exactly what they've done in the past. History repeats itself.