As a dev, I always thought Valve should shut their damn mouth because they're practicing some pretty aggressive lockin tactics if you want your product on Steam.
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Tim Sweeney: MS plans to make Steam 'progressively worse' & buggy via Win10 updates
- Thread starter gofreak
- Start date
As a dev, I always thought Valve should shut their damn mouth because they're practicing some pretty aggressive lockin tactics if you want your product on Steam.
dragonelite
Member
I have purposely stayed away from discussing a lot in UWP threads because it always turn into the same old thing no matter what the news is. I try to state facts as much as I can. That going back and forth over the same things that have already been discussed is a waste of my time. I still state my opinion and discuss where I feel it is appropriate though.
Let time solve it, people will probably hear more about it once the anniversary patch drops next month.
Distribution of UWA through a service (in this case Steam) is one thing, installing or giving the ability to the user to install the desired application on the user's system. Everything after that are features of that service, which I already stated, is not what I was replying to nor what my point was.
Also there have been users who have figured out how to launch UWAs from Steam here (albeit very ugly). Steam would just need to make that prettier or talk to Microsoft in order to make that easier and work with the rest of their stuff.
But like I stated, that was not and is not my point. The point you are trying to make is not in contrast to mine because my point is different from yours. If you feel that it is necessary to discuss your point, you can discuss it with someone else as I'm not going to argue over who point is correct or not.
LordRaptor
Member
Just FYI, Tim Sweeney has nothing to do with Valve, other than the shared concerns that the people that own the land they've built their business on doesn't start doing anything to negatively impact that business.
dr_rus
Member
You seem to assume that "distribution" means "download and launch installer" while it isn't and never was in practice, even for older games distributed through Origin. "Distribution" means whatever these services have, including the libraries, the mod support, overlays, etc.
Saying that Steam can now distribute APPX packages is about as accurate as saying that you can launch Linux programs on Windows - you can, via installing and configuring some virtual machine and setting up Linux on it, but that's hardly what anyone assume when he hears "launch a program" phrase. There's more to digital distribution on PC than being a downloader program with a Web store; in fact it's these additional services which made Steam popular in comparison to other options back in the time of it's launch. Saying that they don't matter now since you can download and install APPX package is seriously misleading.
No, it isn't, because any front-end that knew what a UWP was could invoke the right PowerShell or API to install the .appx anyway. Double-click installation is only particularly important for Web-driven installation.
You got it dude. You're right. Not going to argue. *sigh*
DrPizza said:
I already explained this to him. He understood (on the previous page).
Windows 8/8.1: New-API apps ("Modern" apps) need an enterprise certificate to sideload, not widely available.
Windows 10 RTM: 3-position toggle for New-API apps (now called UWP apps). Store-only, Store + Sideload signed apps, Store + Sideload signed or unsigned apps. Defaulted to Store-only. Installing sideloaded apps requires either a PowerShell command or an API call.
Windows 10 1511: Same 3-position toggle, but now defaults to Store + Sideload signed apps. Installing sideloaded apps still requires either a PowerShell command or an API call.
Windows 10 1607: Same 3-position toggle, continues to default to Store + Sideload signed apps. Installing sideloaded apps can now be done with a double click, though the PowerShell command or API call continue to work correctly.
Steam could technically be done with Windows 10 RTM, and can easily be done with Windows 10 1511. Windows 10 1607 will make manual installation simpler but is basically irrelevant to Steam and similar digital stores; they could just use the API directly.
Thanks, nice summary.
With this in mind then, isn't the evidence clear that MS are actually making it more open with time, rather than doing the opposite?
I understand the worry that a forced update could knock all this back to Windows 8, although this clearly isn't the intention here.
The trajectory as described by Peter and myself looks to be more "open" in that sense but yes, anything can change at anytime. There is no evidence that Microsoft will go back to Windows 8/RT for consumers as we don't know the future, only what MS has stated and done since the introduction of Metro apps in Windows 8.
So, no, nothing is clear. Just what is happening, what is planned from MS saying stuff and what journalists like Peter can find through their sources.
roadrunn3r
Member
Well yea if you start from -100 in terms of openness and improve by 2 every other year, you are technically improving. Hey it's - 94 now, that's a whole plus 6!
Sort of unrelated but connected to the "forced" updates motif, I have just found out that the anniversary update to Windows 10 will now prevent you from disabling Cortana, which is not the case at the moment. As shitty as that is for people like me that don't want it (and doing so in a mandatory update after the free offers is done and folks are in) is there actually no way of turning it off for users of the "Pro" edition? Not found any info on this
Steam was made popular (in the west) by Valve locking their games into it. You couldn't play them without it. It lacked features and didn't really work all that well. Most hated it for a good year or two before they got used to it. Really that is how it started. Everyone wanted to play that games thus you had to have steam. Then one day other games showed up there and rest is history (all the steamworks/overlay stuff came years later)
edit: Also Valve forced everyone playing hl1 online (and its mods which include Counter Strike) to migrate to Steam as they shut down the old authentication servers. So you couldn't stay on the old non steam setup without cracking the game (and the server software to not do the auth check)
Yep. What you can do is not login so it can't "identify" who you are. But all searches will be going through Cortana. Even when you do login, there are still toggles to tell her which features of yourself you do and don't want her to track (location, Contacts, Email, Conversation History, etc...)
Thanks for the info. JShackles points out Win Pro users can also dig into the group policies to disable it that way via several steps
LordRaptor
Member
This is revisionist history; even at its most bare bones functionality Steam offered friendslists, server browser, anti-cheat and automatic updating at a time when people were relying on things like All Seeing Eye for server browsing and Fileplanet queues for software updates.
People migrated to Steam for the benefit of VAC when WON was shut down, and I for one appreciated an account based CD Key system, as there were numerous HL1 keygens out there, and I had lost access to multiplayer due to someone keygenning my purchased CDKey on multiple occasions to the extent that I had to rebuy HL1 more than once just to play online (as CDKeys in use by multiple people simply stopped you playing onkine while whoever was using your key was also playing online.
They also offered a persistent digital purchase while other companies such as EA were selling you a one time use webpage link to download a digital purchase, and if you did not backup that downloaded file you permanently lost access to that purchase (and of course not hosting their own software patches and sending you to Fileplanet for essential updates).
All of which is completely irrelevant to this topic, which is not about Ms having a digital storefront nor the expectations of a digital storefront in the year 2016.
I thought the discussion was about UWA as it is today not how it launched.
The point was quite clear. You are telling lies to further your agenda. Keep going tho. You're currently in the lead.
Well played Sweeney, youre the only person who'll conjur 22 shitty shitty posts out of me
Zambayoshi
Member
I don't doubt that what Tim says could be the dream scenario for MS, but pulling down an established player like Steam would be difficult to say the least.
I thought the discussion was about UWA as it is today not how it launched.
The point was quite clear. You are telling lies to further your agenda. Keep going tho. You're currently in the lead.
Round and round we go, where it stops, nobody knows.
dr_rus
Member
Steam would never become popular if the only good part about it would be some Valve games being locked into it. Look no further than WinStore to see why that plan would've failed. So you're wrong basically, Steam's popularity was because of what it provided in addition to just game installation ISOs downloads. Something which a lot of people here and in MS seems to completely miss out on.
serversurfer
Member
It certainly does, and that's precisely why forty years on, they continue to get away with it.
"In a broader set of community, people don't pay attention to a lot of the details. We've seen it in the research, we've seen it in a lot of the data points." ~Yusuf Mehdi
That's the part I don't get. If Sweeney finally realizes MS can't be trusted, why does he care what they promise? "Now you can trust us. No, for reals this time." Yeah, that's as reassuring as Phil saying he doesn't think he'll be able to enforce the parity clauses anymore =/
Gabe Newell's comments about fearing Microsoft's push for a closed platform continue to ring true today.
Their UWP agenda to further this plan is evident enough. It doesn't matter how many features they add to it. The user is no longer the admin of their own PC in Microsoft's eyes. The way they're pushing Windows 10 installs is disgusting. They continue to push updates that removes the user's ability to disable unwanted features. You used to be able to disable the Windows Store, now it's only for Enterprise users. You used to be able to easily disable Cortana, now only for Pro and above users, and hidden in the Group policy. You used to be able to manually choose which Windows updates you wanted to install, decide whether to download, and whether to install, and now you're very limited in your choices, depending on your OS version, and hidden away in the Group policy. You can't completely uninstall OneDrive, without it coming back in an update. They change your Windows default programs without your knowledge. How can anyone continue to defend Microsoft? And this is only some their recent actions.
An open-platform is, and has always been key to the innovations of the PC platform, both when it comes to video games, as other industries. Microsoft is in a position to endanger this, and has actively attempted to, starting with Windows 8. There has been enough negative press that they've had to resort to a strategy of slowly taking away these options.
Your comment reeks of personal bias and ignorance. SteamOS was never intended as a replacement to a desktop OS. It's merely a front-end, a modified Debian, that boots directly into Steam's big picture mode, with some optimizations. It's prime purpose was for PCs that would be used in the living room, like a console, such as Steam Machines. The alternative to Windows is simply Linux, which Valve has pushed strongly for since those initial comments, and the result is an increase by several fold of Linux-compatible games on Steam. It's not something that can happen from day to night, but a process of making slowly making Linux a viable alternative as a security measure against Microsoft's agenda.
Don't want to wait 'til tomorrow
Why put it off another day
One more walk through problems
Built up, and stand in our way, ah
One step ahead, one step behind me
Now you gotta run to get even
Make future plans, don't dream about yesterday, hey
C'mon turn, turn this thing around
Right now, hey
It's your tomorrow
Right now,
C'mon, it's everything
Right now,
Catch a magic moment, do it
Right here and now
It means everything
CrispyBoar
Banned
If this is true, Microsoft should be sued to high heaven.
I'm sorry, but I have to defend Big_Al on this one about everything that he wrote.
There are too many posters on here that are too praising towards Microsoft on everything & thinks that they're the savior of gaming & on everything else in which they can never do anything wrong towards them. They need to have a dose of reality.
I'm sorry, but I have to defend Big_Al on this one about everything that he wrote.
There are too many posters on here that are too praising towards Microsoft on everything & thinks that they're the savior of gaming & on everything else in which they can never do anything wrong towards them. They need to have a dose of reality.
There would be nothing quite like a dose of reality with some evidence.
It could be Mother Teresa and Einstein saying that MS is going to sabotage Steam, but if you don't provide evidence then any conspiracy being pushed is dead in its tracks.
It is not unreasonable, it is not stupid, it is not denial when you ask for evidence.. And as much as you want to, you cannot shame them and dismiss them as brand loyalists for questioning a groundless rabble.
CyberMiguel
Banned
And here's another power user who can't see the bigger picture: the regular user does not care about customization, options or "openness", because, like a car, it doesn't care how it works. It cares that it works and that it has to do minimal maintainance.
In fact, the regular user normally doesn't even care about it's own security and often downloads whatever from dubious sites, filling their system with adware and crap (in the best case scenarios) and viruses and/or trojans (in the worst scenario). I've seen that too many times to count. Is that people who you want to give even more options to customize their machines? Do you understand now why Microsoft is doing this with Windows 10, effectively unifying everything?
Sure, it sucks for power users like us, but we know our stuff and we can get Win10 Pro one way or another and we can tweak stuff because we know and care. Most people don't.
Like what?
not evidence, make a thread about Netscape if you want though
AcceptableGhost
Member
The regular user uses (android/ios) tablets and phones.
Dirk Benedict
Member
Highly possible. It's why Sweeney said over the course of 5 years. We'd have to pick his brain more to figure out why he came up with that number. Personally, it would have to be more around 10 years and they would have to be very sneaky about it. Everything going wrong would have to look accidental.
I actually think Valve might be privy to the same concerns, whether it's a priority or just something to keep in mind.
I actually think Valve might be privy to the same concerns, whether it's a priority or just something to keep in mind.
CyberMiguel
Banned
Exactly my point: in both cases, both systems leave very little to the user to tamper with advanced settings and customizations.
iOS is closed af and extremely easy to use. Also, the Android that comes with popular phones (you know...samsung, sony and such) is nowhere near customizable nor open as vanilla Android. Heck, the percentage of people that roots their phones is so low that its laughable.
TBiddy
Member
I agree that Adobe will probably never release their range of software as an UWA. But remember, that you wrote "but given UWAs have no real benefit to anyone that is not directly employed or funded by MS".
Plex, Spotify, Netflix, HBO and what have you. Could also be any number of small games, like Peggle or puzzle games.
wapplew
Member
And MS is attempting to get them back.
serversurfer
Member
If someone looks at the 41-year history of MS and still says, "Sure this is exactly how Embrace & Extend goes, but can you prove they're plotting that stuff again," then I would say, yes, that probably qualifies as unreasonable, stupid denial. Terrible reasoning, at the very least.
deadscreensky
Member
Guys, we don't want evidence that Microsoft will or could do this within five years. We want evidence this has already happened, now, present day with Steam, because that's what Sweeney is accusing Microsoft here of doing.
I'd want some evidence regardless, but come on, Sweeney has obvious financial reasons for pushing this narrative. Epic is both a rival game publisher and an engine licensor, a huge selling point of UE4 being how many different platforms it works on. He has a vested interest in discouraging Windows dominance. That's not to say his motives are suspect, I personally wager it's probably more paranoia than corporate sabotage, but when a business owner makes incredible claims about a competitor without any apparent evidence you need to treat that with suspicion.
And really, these claims are incredible. Microsoft is going to sabotage Win32 compatibility, one of their crown jewels that has ensured their profitability for so long now, so they could maybe hurt a competitor that pulls in only a few billion every year? Something that would also surely bring the wrath of government regulations? How does that make even a little bit of sense?
I'd want some evidence regardless, but come on, Sweeney has obvious financial reasons for pushing this narrative. Epic is both a rival game publisher and an engine licensor, a huge selling point of UE4 being how many different platforms it works on. He has a vested interest in discouraging Windows dominance. That's not to say his motives are suspect, I personally wager it's probably more paranoia than corporate sabotage, but when a business owner makes incredible claims about a competitor without any apparent evidence you need to treat that with suspicion.
And really, these claims are incredible. Microsoft is going to sabotage Win32 compatibility, one of their crown jewels that has ensured their profitability for so long now, so they could maybe hurt a competitor that pulls in only a few billion every year? Something that would also surely bring the wrath of government regulations? How does that make even a little bit of sense?
TBiddy
Member
Have you even bothered to read the thread?
edit: see deadscreenskys post above for the truth!
Soodanim
Gold Member
Is that a game graph? Because that's encouraging. I'd happily switch to Linux for my personal system if I could get the games I wanted on it in future.Gabe Newell's comments about fearing Microsoft's push for a closed platform continue to ring true today.
Their UWP agenda to further this plan is evident enough. It doesn't matter how many features they add to it. The user is no longer the admin of their own PC in Microsoft's eyes. The way they're pushing Windows 10 installs is disgusting. They continue to push updates that removes the user's ability to disable unwanted features. You used to be able to disable the Windows Store, now it's only for Enterprise users. You used to be able to easily disable Cortana, now only for Pro and above users, and hidden in the Group policy. You used to be able to manually choose which Windows updates you wanted to install, decide whether to download, and whether to install, and now you're very limited in your choices, depending on your OS version, and hidden away in the Group policy. You can't completely uninstall OneDrive, without it coming back in an update. They change your Windows default programs without your knowledge. How can anyone continue to defend Microsoft? And this is only some their recent actions.
An open-platform is, and has always been key to the innovations of the PC platform, both when it comes to video games, as other industries. Microsoft is in a position to endanger this, and has actively attempted to, starting with Windows 8. There has been enough negative press that they've had to resort to a strategy of slowly taking away these options.
Your comment reeks of personal bias and ignorance. SteamOS was never intended as a replacement to a desktop OS. It's merely a front-end, a modified Debian, that boots directly into Steam's big picture mode, with some optimizations. It's prime purpose was for PCs that would be used in the living room, like a console, such as Steam Machines. The alternative to Windows is simply Linux, which Valve has pushed strongly for since those initial comments, and the result is an increase by several fold of Linux-compatible games on Steam. It's not something that can happen from day to night, but a process of making slowly making Linux a viable alternative as a security measure against Microsoft's agenda.
hooijdonk17
Member
Is there a way for me to see which games on my Steam library are available on Linux? I checked my Profile/Games through the Web and the option isn't there. That seems kind of dumb considering even GOG has that functionality..
Crayon
Member
Yeah you can filter them. It's a little different in the desktop client and the bpm but both have it.
Exactly. Sweeney claims MS is making Steam run worse through Windows updates right at this very moment.
No, releasing their own games in a format that currently doesn't play nice with Steam overlays is not the same. Not at all. Neither is that stupid "EEE" meme, because what exactly is MS supposed to "Embrace" and "Extend"? win32?
Calm waterfall
Banned
MS lied (did not follow through) to PC audience many times, so i can understand the hesitation coming from to trust what MS does regarding the platform.
The Shift
Banned
Adobe are releasing UWA starting end of this year re Adobe Experience Design. Sure, it's a front end mockup application for web and desktop programs and probably means little in the bigger picture but be aware that a user will need a full AdobeCC account to activate it. So saying Adobe will never release UWA applications is a of the mark.
TBiddy
Member
I was referring to their "big" products (Illustrator, Photoshop, After Effects etc.), but I should probably have formulated that a bit better. That's what you get for posting early in the morning, before coffee and in a foreign language! I didn't know about AED though, so thanks for the heads up. Always nice to learn!
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Apple didn't transition to this, they had a walled garden approach from the start on IOS, while here the assumption is that Microsoft is changing its open platform to a walled garden which for Sweeney will make it worse for consumers and in this case for competitors like Steam.
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