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[Sydle]

He has had strong ties with Microsoft in the past with Gears of War and even gave a lot of input in the development of the Xbox 360. Epic has worked closely with MS
on multiple occasions and I am sure that Sweeney knows the corporate culture of MS pretty well. But lately he has been a bit on edge with Microsoft which means that he might know something that we don't or doesn't like the direction that MS is going in with UWP.

I don't think he has an issue with UWP itself, he's actually highlighted some of the benefits. His issue is that Microsoft could one day change their mind about it being an open platform and release a Windows 10 update that locks it all down, disabling the ability for signing by any CA root or distribution through stores other than Windows Store.

https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/715637147898880000

 

[Nzyme32]

Aah oke, yeah i remember that from like 5~7 years ago when i still pirated a couple of games.
Didn't Microsoft said they would add overlays some time in the future.

They showed it working with Age of Empires 2 a long while back. Not sure when it will get properly implemented. Steam Controller doesn't work with UWP even when not using the overlay (which is not a requirement), but this is true of a lot of different peripherals. In-home Steaming doesn't work either last I heard, this is also true with other vendors doing the same thing.

 

[LordRaptor]

Aah oke, yeah i remember that from like 5~7 years ago when i still pirated a couple of games.
Didn't Microsoft said they would add overlays some time in the future.

I don't know what you think overlays have to do with piracy.

Ah, well he said the technical reasons don't matter.

They do matter as it's something going on in UWP titles that can affect ANY overlay.

They don't matter in the context of the discussion of whether UWAs provide a worse PC gaming experience than not, or if there is any 'evidence' that UWAs provide a worse experience with Steam.
e:
Because yes, you're right, UWAs offer worse experiences with lots of programs that rely on standard windows functionality.
That is one of the bones of contention with them.

 

[Trup1aya]

Ah, well he said the technical reasons don't matter.

They do matter as it's something going on in UWP titles that can affect ANY overlay.

MSI afterburner? Nope. FRAPS? Nope. The only overlay that I know of that works is Dxtory.

This is not MS singling Steam out of a list of overlays that DO work. Because 99% of them DON'T work.

Oh I know it's rediculous to paint obvious technical limitations as an attempt to "break" or degrade steam...

But it seems that there are some who refuse to think logically. But these are the same people who think pointing out blatant sensationalism against MS = defending MS' unproven nefarious plans.

 

[MrCunningham]

I don't think he has an issue with UWP itself, he's actually highlighted some of the benefits. His issue is that Microsoft could one day change their mind about it being an open platform and release a Windows 10 update that locks it all down, disabling the ability for signing by any CA root or distribution through stores other than Windows Store.

https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/715637147898880000

The only thing he really highlighted there is Microsoft making UWP an "open" service. But that also does bring up a big concern that MS could close UWP at any time they choose. That is like MS saying, "we give you the option to put this collar around your applications and you are still free to do whatever you want." But then later decides to put a leash on that collar because they decided to change their minds.

If MS really were releasing small updates in Windows 10 to hamper usability of Steam, and pushed out UWP through easily accessible channels, then they really could gain a better foothold with the Windows Store.

 

[FyreWulff]

Sounds like nonsense. Windows Store apps cannot replace billions of dollars of win32 apps. Show me Visual Studio with Windows Store's lack of detail and feature sets that a win32 app has.

I view this pretty much as

"watch out for the wolves" says the fox to the chickens.

after shit Epic has pulled, they want to paint MS as a big bad? el oh el.

Also Microsoft can lock down win32 itself if they want to. People already lost the fight when they let Microsoft keep the keys for SecureBoot. Microsoft already owns most devices from boot onwards. Any "openness" from that point onwards is at Microsoft's discretion for years now.

 

[dragonelite]

I don't know what you think overlays have to do with piracy.

When i pirated a game i would add the exe to my steam client, then start the game from steam and it would have the steam overlay when shift + tab (or other keycombo) was pressed.

Or are we talking about different things?

 

[Trup1aya]

I don't think he has an issue with UWP itself, he's actually highlighted some of the benefits. His issue is that Microsoft could one day change their mind about it being an open platform and release a Windows 10 update that locks it all down, disabling the ability for signing by any CA root or distribution through stores other than Windows Store.

https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/715637147898880000

It's not enough to say, the platform will remain open. He needs to hear Nadella say " I promise it will remain open forever". Of Course he'll need them to do it live on twitch, with his hands in front so we can all see that his fingers aren't crossed.

J/k In all seriousness, let's say, hypothetically, that MS DOES want to keep UWP open. What do y'all think it would take to make Sweeney feel that MS is committed to that premise? Since saying it'll be open, and then opening it isn't sufficient.

 

[Sydle]

The only thing he really highlighted there is Microsoft making UWP an "open" service. But that also does bring up a big concern that MS could close UWP at any time they choose. That is like MS saying, "we give you the option to put this collar around your applications and you are still free to do whatever you want." But then later decides to put a leash on that collar because they decided to change their minds.

If MS really were releasing small updates in Windows 10 to hamper usability of Steam, and pushed out UWP through easily accessible channels, then they really could gain a better foothold with the Windows Store.

The benefits according to him:

GamesBeat: You’d like to see them reverse course on this strategy, then? Might that be too hard to do at this point?

Sweeney: Yes, absolutely. I think Windows Store is a great idea. Having a storefront in front of every user in Windows is awesome. The idea of UWP is a great idea. It brings a common set of APIs to all Microsoft devices – PC, console, mobile, and augmented reality. There are lots of good components to this.

What’s required is a very clear commitment from Microsoft that on PC, UWP will remain open. If they made that kind of commitment, everybody in the industry will be able to rely on it as a future evolutionary path to move away from Win32 to UWP and receive the benefits of that, without the fear that Microsoft is going to assert itself between every developer and publisher and their customers as the new commerce monopoly on Windows. - Link

It clearly illustrates his issue is not the UWP format itself. The only thing he keeps harping (likely with good reason) on about is that Microsoft could flip a switch someday that locks everything down, forcing apps to be signed by MS and distributed only through Windows Store, and that MS are going to take steps to disadvantage non UWP apps.

The plan as of now, being released next week with the Anniversary Update, is that UWA's can be signed by any CA root and distributed through any means (it doesn't have to go in Windows Store).

 

[MrCunningham]

The plan as of now, being released next week with the Anniversary Update is that UWA's can be signed by any CA root and distributed through any means (it doesn't have to go in Windows Store).

Then I have to ask the question, why is it there to begin with? To me just having UWP there is just giving MS an option to be able to lock things down at their discretion.

 

[dragonelite]

It's not enough to say, the platform will remain open. He needs to hear Nadella say " I promise it will remain open forever". Of Course he'll need them to do it live on twitch, with his hands in front so we can all see that his fingers aren't crossed.

J/k In all seriousness, let's say, hypothetically, that MS DOES want to keep UWP open. What do y'all think it would take to make Sweeney feel that MS is committed to that premise?

The way he is going on uwp, probably not. No tech company will make such a promise and
keep it. No one knows how the tech landscape looks like in 5, 10 or 20 years.

Then I have to ask the question, why is it there to begin with? To me just having UWP there is just giving MS an option to be able to lock things down at their discretion.

Thank google and apple for that to train whole generations that apps come from a store, that apps from a store are save etc.

 

[Trup1aya]

Then I have to ask the question, why is it there to begin with? To me just having UWP there is just giving MS an option to be able to lock things down at their discretion.

Because most applications don't need the systems access afforded by Win32, and most users don't know or care if their day-to-day applications are afforded that level of access. Few people are interested in modding their Facebook app, for example.

As such, UWP provides an opportunity to offer a cleaner and safer software download process.

The real question is will UWP ever deliver an experience acceptable to gamers. And failing that will win32 remain as an option for software distribution.

 

[Hockeymac18]

I view this pretty much as

"watch out for the wolves" says the fox to the chickens.

after shit Epic has pulled, they want to paint MS as a big bad? el oh el.

Also Microsoft can lock down win32 itself if they want to. People already lost the fight when they let Microsoft keep the keys for SecureBoot. Microsoft already owns most devices from boot onwards. Any "openness" from that point onwards is at Microsoft's discretion for years now.

If that's true, why hasn't MS gone and locked it down as many here suspect they want to do with UWP?

 

[LordRaptor]

When i pirated a game i would add the exe to my steam client, then start the game from steam and it would have the steam overlay when shift + tab (or other keycombo) was pressed.

Or are we talking about different things?

no, but I don't know what piracy has to do with it.

let's say, hypothetically, that MS DOES want to keep UWP open. What do y'all think it would take to make Sweeney feel that MS is committed to that premise? Since saying it'll be open, and then opening it isn't sufficient.

If MS wanted to create a replacement for Win32 and not be distrusted while doing so, they would have consulted with stakeholders at all levels and put overall control into an independent authority.
Something like the International Organization for Standardization.

As it is, they created a new format only signable by them, creatable using their own tools, and sold through their own store without input from stakeholders.
It's not just understandable that their motives are questioned, it is common sense.

 

[Caddyshack]

I mean... being unwilling to trust Microsoft when it comes to their handling of PC gaming only seems sensible and all given their track record, but Sweeney is dreaming if he thinks they're ever going to offer the kind of explicit guarantees he seems to want.

 

[DrPizza]

The benefits according to him:


The plan as of now, being released next week with the Anniversary Update, is that UWA's can be signed by any CA root and distributed through any means (it doesn't have to go in Windows Store).

No, that's already there, has been since 1511.

The Anniversary Update adds double-click installation to .appx bundles, which is nice for offering downloads from an arbitrary Web server, but not really relevant to Steam-like front-ends.

 

[leeh]

No, that's already there, has been since 1511.

The Anniversary Update adds double-click installation to .appx bundles, which is nice for offering downloads from an arbitrary Web server, but not really relevant to Steam-like front-ends.

It's very relevant for steam like front ends. It means that Steam can offer & install UWP apps.

 

[shoreu]

I don't think he has an issue with UWP itself, he's actually highlighted some of the benefits. His issue is that Microsoft could one day change their mind about it being an open platform and release a Windows 10 update that locks it all down, disabling the ability for signing by any CA root or distribution through stores other than Windows Store.

https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/715637147898880000

A commitment doesn't mean shit tho lol why is he so focused on that he seems to just be making a fuss.

 

[Hockeymac18]

no, but I don't know what piracy has to do with it.



If MS wanted to create a replacement for Win32 and not be distrusted while doing so, they would have consulted with stakeholders at all levels and put overall control into an independent authority.
Something like the International Organization for Standardization.

As it is, they created a new format only signable by them, creatable using their own tools, and sold through their own store without input from stakeholders.
It's not just understandable that their motives are questioned, it is common sense.

Is that all true? I thought UWP's could be signed by other people and released on other stores??

 

[FyreWulff]

If that's true, why hasn't MS gone and locked it down as many here suspect they want to do with UWP?

The reasons for locking down neither at this point would be the same. They still have the same capability no matter which API you are using.

Hell, Ubuntu even had to go ahead and have Microsoft sign the GRUB bootloader so that Ubuntu can be installed on Secureboot enabled computers. Microsoft also removed the OEM requirement that SecureBoot keys must be able to load non-Microsoft keys a little bit ago. You're only required to have / allow the MS private key now.

They could enforce apps and drivers being signed if they want to - Secureboot lets them enforce anything from the moment you turn on the computer forward.

I don't think they will - and I'm not against closed source - I'm just logically observing that complaining about a locked down OS that you don't have the source to is a more of a "well, duh" observation.

 

[FX-GMC]

Is that all true? I thought UWP's could be signed by other people and released on other stores??

You're right but that doesn't support his argument so the facts are meaningless.

 

[Zedox]

It's very relevant for steam like front ends. It means that Steam can offer & install UWP apps.

What Peter Bright is saying (that's who Dr. Pizza is...hey Peter) front ends like Steam already do the "double-clicking" on behalf of the user and double-clicking isn't necessary to deploy an .appx package. So it is irrelevant because the user would never do that on Steam in the first place.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: I think people forget (or didn't read Peter Bright's article closely enough) that Microsoft already tried this "locking down" of Windows, it was called Windows RT. You could only get software through the Windows Store and all of the Win32 apps were from Microsoft. Guess what, that failed horribly, through Surface RT, Surface 2, and some other OEM devices that tried their hand. There is a reason that all Surface devices right now run on x86 and not ARM (until the surface phone). The locking down of Windows failed horribly and I doubt Microsoft would try to make that mistake again, any time soon.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Microsoft responds to Sweeney's article, via Game Informer

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Microsoft recognizes it has work to do, though it maintains that UWP is an open platform. "Tim is a respected figure in the gaming world, and we value his feedback," a company representative told us via email. "As stated previously, the Universal Windows Platform is a fully open ecosystem that is available to every developer, and can be supported by any store. It’s early, and we recognize there is still work to be done, but we want to make Windows the best development platform regardless of technologies used."

 

[leeh]

What Peter Bright is saying (that's who Dr. Pizza is...hey Peter) front ends like Steam already do the "double-clicking" on behalf of the user and double-clicking isn't necessary to deploy an .appx package. So it is irrelevant because the user would never do that on Steam in the first place.

I'm a bit confused now. If these packages were only installable through the windows store and now they can be installed by executing this package, then can't steam distribute and install these without aid from the Store?

 

[Zedox]

I'm a bit confused now. If these packages were only installable through the windows store and now they can be installed by executing this package, then can't steam distribute and install these without aid from the Store?

Windows 10 version 1511 (November update of last year) let users install packages outside of the Windows Store by default (keyword). Those packages weren't "easy" to install aka it wasn't a "double-click" but a user could still install the package (it was a command line). Steam could distribute UWAs with that command line since 1511.

Windows 10 version 1607 (Anniversary Update coming August 2nd) gives users the ability to "double-click" on an .appx package to install to the system. Steam is unaffected by this change IF they were to distribute UWAs.

The Windows Store is not necessary in either of these cases. It's just the UWP.

 

[Momentary]

I don't know what's being discussed here other than what's in the OP, but more and more games in my library either won't start, buggy controls, and/ or certain settings just don't work.

And EVERY SINGLE work around always involves Windows 10 as an issue. The old driver to actually make controllers work on certain games has been removed from their website. You have to hunt it down through obscure third party means.

I don't know man. I'm starting to think this guy isn't spouting off bullcrap.

 

[leeh]

Windows 10 version 1511 (November update of last year) let users install packages outside of the Windows Store by default (keyword). Those packages weren't "easy" to install aka it wasn't a "double-click" but a user could still install the package (it was a command line). Steam could distribute UWAs with that command line since 1511.

Windows 10 version 1607 (Anniversary Update coming August 2nd) gives users the ability to "double-click" on an .appx package to install to the system. Steam is unaffected by this change IF they were to distribute UWAs.

Oh thank you. Didnt know about the CLI installation, I thought that you had to do it through the Store.

 

[Zedox]

Oh thank you. Didnt know about the CLI installation, I thought that you had to do it through the Store.

Knowledge is power.

 

[MrCunningham]

Hell, Ubuntu even had to go ahead and have Microsoft sign the GRUB bootloader so that Ubuntu can be installed on Secureboot enabled computers. Microsoft also removed the OEM requirement that SecureBoot keys must be able to load non-Microsoft keys a little bit ago. You're only required to have / allow the MS private key now.

This is why I don't use GRUB anymore. Instead I switch between OS's through the BIOS boot options.

As it is, they created a new format only signable by them, creatable using their own tools, and sold through their own store without input from stakeholders.
It's not just understandable that their motives are questioned, it is common sense.

And that is where I stand on the subject too. I really don't like the idea that Microsoft has final say on what they can do with UWP. I realize that it is their software and they can do whatever they want to it, but at the same time giving Microsoft a master switch over all signed applications doesn't sit right with me at all.

 

[LordRaptor]

Is that all true? I thought UWP's could be signed by other people and released on other stores??

That's how it was launched.
Some changes to that have been made, some changes to tha are awaiting changet, some changes to that are awaiting public rollout, some things will likely never be changed.

You're right but that doesn't support his argument so the facts are meaningless.

Did you have a point to make, or is this one of those shitposts that are all the rage nowadays?

 

[Momentary]

Oh and let's not forget the touch screen service that causes games to crash every 15 minutes. An issue they know about and refuse to fix. You have to go in and manually turn it off. This is not something a casual gamer would know to do and it is not information that's readily available without doing a lot of googling. I've posted most of these fixes on STEAM. Hopefully people stumble across them a little easier than I did.

 

[prudislav]

i am starting to thinl that the main things it does are just having aple-like appstore, easy to port apps and OS-level DRM ... the rest are just bonuses

 

[M3d10n]

Non-store UWPs (APPX files) are basically APKs: you double click and install. Since redstone allows them to contain win32 apps, they are a way to install software for non-admin accounts.

Yes, but given UWAs have no real benefit to anyone that is not directly employed or funded by MS, I suspect we are not going to see major Win32 software vendors such as Adobe or Autodesk rushing to place their wares there.

Bringing win32 apps to the store actually weakens UWA adoption, since everyone can just dump their existing apps there as an additional distribution source, without porting to a different UI framework and still keeping compatibility with previous Windows versions. Not to mention that developers can also provide non-store APPX files for W10 users.

 

[Trup1aya]

no, but I don't know what piracy has to do with it.



If MS wanted to create a replacement for Win32 and not be distrusted while doing so, they would have consulted with stakeholders at all levels and put overall control into an independent authority.
Something like the International Organization for Standardization.

As it is, they created a new format only signable by them, creatable using their own tools, and sold through their own store without input from stakeholders.
It's not just understandable that their motives are questioned, it is common sense.

None of this is true.

My question though, is what Sweeney would take as a show of commitment" surely he doesn't expect them to hand management off to a 3rd party.

 

[FX-GMC]

That's how it was launched.
Some changes to that have been made, some changes to tha are awaiting changet, some changes to that are awaiting public rollout, some things will likely never be changed.



Did you have a point to make, or is this one of those shitposts that are all the rage nowadays?

I thought the discussion was about UWA as it is today not how it launched.

The point was quite clear. You are telling lies to further your agenda. Keep going tho. You're currently in the lead.

 

[LordRaptor]

I thought the discussion was about UWA as it is today not how it launched.

The point was quite clear. You are telling lies to further your agenda. Keep going tho. You're currently in the lead.

No, the question was "What could MS do to win trust amongst those who do not trust them" and the answer - as in any negotiation - is "Not make your opening gambit so overwhelmingly lopsided in your favour with promises that that balance may shift at some point in the future at your disretion and nobody elses" but you seem more concerned with attacking me and trying to score some kind of point than actually discussing that so, you know, make an actual point if you want a discussion.

e:

None of this is true.

My question though, is what Sweeney would take as a show of commitment" surely he doesn't expect them to hand management off to a 3rd party.

An independent and neutral thrird party stewarding such a format would be the only way that obvious conflicts of interest do not impede adoption

 

[dragonelite]

An independent and neutral thrird party stewarding such a format would be the only way that obvious conflicts of interest do not impede adoption

Who do you had in mind to be the neutral third party?
Will they also steward osx and chromeOs?

 

[Trup1aya]

No, the question was "What could MS do to win trust amongst those who do not trust them" and the answer - as in any negotiation - is "Not make your opening gambit so overwhelmingly lopsided in your favour with promises that that balance may shift at some point in the future at your disretion and nobody elses" but you seem more concerned with attacking me and trying to score some kind of point than actually discussing that so, you know, make an actual point if you want a discussion.

e:


An independent and neutral thrird party stewarding such a format would be the only way that obvious conflicts of interest do not impede adoption

Did ms need a third party to run win32?

Serious question.

 

[LordRaptor]

Did ms need a third party to run win32?

Serious question.

No, they fought against Apple and IBM (who both wanted closed formats that they were in sole control of) for an open format, which led to Windows becoming the de facto choice for developers.

They have - obviously - since changed their minds about the benefits of a format not controlled by a central governing body.

 

[dr_rus]

Windows 10 version 1511 (November update of last year) let users install packages outside of the Windows Store by default (keyword). Those packages weren't "easy" to install aka it wasn't a "double-click" but a user could still install the package (it was a command line). Steam could distribute UWAs with that command line since 1511.

Windows 10 version 1607 (Anniversary Update coming August 2nd) gives users the ability to "double-click" on an .appx package to install to the system. Steam is unaffected by this change IF they were to distribute UWAs.

The Windows Store is not necessary in either of these cases. It's just the UWP.

Steam won't be able to provide the same services it does for UWA apps no matter how they were installed. I'd say that affects it rather directly.

 

[Crayon]

Kind of tells a little story, doesn't it? Lord Raptor followed by some of gaf's most reliable contributors.

 

[Zedox]

Steam won't be able to provide the same services it does for UWA apps no matter how they were installed. I'd say that affects it rather directly.

I specifically was replying to and answering about distribution of UWAs, not the features of Steam being affected by using UWAs through it. Nothing I stated was incorrect in the context in which I replied.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Kind of tells a little story, doesn't it? Lord Raptor followed by some of gaf's most reliable contributors.

Looks like the last Sweeney thread, minus Zedox and I on the wall of shame, lol.

gamz, you slacking buddy. ;p

 

[Crayon]

Looks like the last Sweeney thread, minus Zedox and I on the wall of shame, lol.

gamz, you slacking buddy. ;p

And me, too. I think I'm still tuckered out from that one.

 

[dr_rus]

I specifically was replying to and answering about distribution of UWAs, not the features of Steam being affected by using UWAs through it. Nothing I stated was incorrect in the context in which I replied.

Even distribution is more than just installing as Steam won't be able to launch the installed UWA app for example let alone add it to Steam's library view. So still affected.

 

[DeepEnigma]

And me, too. I think I'm still tuckered out from that one.

Same... I saw the writing on the wall from last time, so I am randomly browsing. Definitely some interesting/learning of some new little tidbits in between the repeats.

I have purposely stayed away from discussing a lot in UWP threads because it always turn into the same old thing no matter what the news is. I try to state facts as much as I can. That going back and forth over the same things that have already been discussed is a waste of my time. I still state my opinion and discuss where I feel it is appropriate though.

I definitely can respect that.

 

[Zedox]

I have purposely stayed away from discussing a lot in UWP threads because it always turn into the same old thing no matter what the news is. I try to state facts as much as I can. That going back and forth over the same things that have already been discussed is a waste of my time. I still state my opinion and discuss where I feel it is appropriate though.

 

[Sanpei]

MS should sue this funny man...

 

[Maebe]

I don't if they'd do it this way, but they have form for this kind of thing. Going back a long way (DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run) or the new Windows 10 warning that pops up if you're using Chrome or Firefox to say they're power inefficient and you should use Edge:

Geeze

 

[yllekz]

I feel every time Valve makes a statement about Microsoft, their comments are just garbage.

Remember when Gabe Newell said Windows 8 would lock Valve out of the OS forever and that "Linux is where we will all be using soon?" Look at how well SteamOS turned out...

Valve's PR is a dumpster fire.