The Shift
Banned
Cool TBiddy, all good. Just thought it was a bit off reading Adobe will never publish UWA multiple times in this thread is all.
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Tim Sweeney: MS plans to make Steam 'progressively worse' & buggy via Win10 updates
- Thread starter gofreak
- Start date
Cool TBiddy, all good. Just thought it was a bit off reading Adobe will never publish UWA multiple times in this thread is all.
Where are these "aggressive lockin tactics"?
hooijdonk17
Member
I meant, how do I search my own games list, i.e. the games I own, for which ones are available on linux?
Head.spawn
Junior Member
Does Steam run worse or buggier on Windows 10, than say: Win 7, Win 8/8.1, Mac or Linux? It's always been pretty buggy in my opinion, I don't notice anything in particular myself that seems out of place from my experience.
Sweeney says Apple got a free pass because they made a cool device.
Pretty close to the actual quote IIRC. No joke.
http://steam.bravehost.com/
https://steamdb.info/linux/
The ones that show up highlighted after you sign in are available on Linux.
plenty of people have criticised apple for it. the key difference is that iphone was walled from inception, so you know what you're buying into beforehand. adding walling to a platform that used to be open is a different matter.
Where are these posters?
Basically my reaction, I've seen people ask for proof that Microsoft will do these things, I've seen people say that it's unlikely they'll do these things, hell I've even seen people say that Microsoft is doing the opposite of these things.
Bit I've yet to read anyone saying there is no chance they will do it.
Caipirinha
Member
Lol at you guys thinking he is a conspiracy theorists, this is how Microsoft work, this has been their entire business strategy for decades, they have had to defend themselves in numerous high profile court battles over exactly this kind of behaviour.
They are a creatively bankrupt company and always have been so they always end up resorting to aggression and monopoly.
They are a creatively bankrupt company and always have been so they always end up resorting to aggression and monopoly.
Caipirinha
Member
Apple also make their walled garden a selling point, Microsoft have never shown anywhere near the creativity or competence required to achieve those same selling points be it in UI design, stability, security or anything else.
No one disputes that they've done this in the past. No one disputes that, hypothetically, they COULD do it again.
But Sweeney's is telling tale of a very specific plot against Steam, and has no evidence to support it. Until he can provide a shred of proof, it's safe to assume He litterally MADE IT UP. How is that anything other than conspiracy theory?
dr_rus
Member
Streaming apps? Ok although like none of these work where I live. Can't think of why I would be interested in Peggle on PC.
stan423321
Member
Screw iOS, remember OSX. They have basically made it work like Android while it was not the case earlier, you need to check a "dangerous" checkbox to use software which doesn't come from them in some way - and the only way to get that for an average programming company is to sell their software on Apple's shop.
Or so I understand it, I worked only a little with Macs and didn't like it.
The evidence is right there to see, look at the difference between 8 and the RTM to Anniversary builds in 10. There's no denying it's becoming more open.
boneyjangles
Member
Conspiracies aside, I don't get the feeling that Valve trust Windows to be the gate-holder for Steam either. They've put a lot of effort into steam boxes, Linux, and even OSX, their whole catalog works on all platforms, and actually a lot of steam games seem to, plus they like to promote Steam Play ( https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=9439-QHKN-1308 )
LordRaptor
Member
I mean, if forcibly enabling a halo-themed Bonzi Buddy via mandatory update doesn't lead you to question if MS are a company that deserve blind trust, I really don't know what evidence could be presented to introduce scepticism before its too late to do anything about it.
8-Bit Sunset
Banned
I can't provide proof of this instance but then again you cannot prove otherwise either.
However, given someone of Tim's position in the industry he almost certainly knows HELL of a lot more than us or your average forum poster. He has obviously seen/heard something that we have not and it has him rather worried. Even Gabe is obviously concerned hence the creation of Steam OS.
After beginning his FUD campaign in March,
He told polygon "There is not proof of an evil plan to do this, but just the fear."
After that, he went on Twitter and showed just how little research he had before making his vitriolic claims. His concern is valid. However, some of his critisms are outdated, others ignore announcements of upcoming improvements. The Steam degradation plot appears to have been pulled out of thin air.
Long story short, He made things up.
He could easily say "I've recieved a leak" and everyone would instantly follow. But he hasn't. Because there isn't one.
Not really. Probably not a lot of people used the touch ver, so it's not worth the time and effort to support it.
Of course. But someone actually bothered to use Project Centennial to put something on the store. That, I find interesting.
wapplew
Member
So Windows store now sell win32 app?
Aug 2nd
wapplew
Member
Cool cool. MS should sell their games in both format, give us more option.
Oh shit! Yeah, that is interesting.
TBiddy
Member
Yeah, I think streaming apps are a great case, since they work/should work on all platforms. I've mostly played Peggle on PC, to be honest. That said, it could be any number of games, suitable for both PC and Xbox. Add to that, if you want to target tablets and smartphones (there are dozens of Windows phones out there, I hear), UWA is starting to make sense.
Of course, if you also want to target PS4/OSX/Linux, it starts to lose its appeal.
dr_rus
Member
My guess would be that none other than MS will bother porting their games to UWP for WinStore if MS will give 3rd parties an option of selling Win32 versions in the Store. I wonder if that change is only for apps or maybe even only for _some_ apps...
Well, tbh, what Store apps I've tried - they were all pretty awful. Some are very unstable, some are very limited in their functionality even compared to web versions (Twitter client for example). Add to this the fact that WinStore mysteriously can't work through a proxy server and you'll see why I'm not very fond of whatever it's offering. I mean, I can't even setup something like Wunderlist app on both my home and office machines because WinStore doesn't fucking work in the office because of a proxy. And that's after all the words from MS on how they made big improvements to the Store for enterprise users in 1511.
Teletraan1
Banned
a) You have the internet so go read some history about MS. Their past transgressions hardly make this nonsense or rubbish.
b) Plenty of people criticize apple. It happens every single day. However, Apple supplies the hardware and the OS. They have a closed ecosystem that has been closed since day one and everyone who gets involved has known this since day one. Android is nowhere as closed as iOS. Not even close. Also not the same scenario on PC an open platform since forever that is slowly being eroded by MS an their tactics. Is it better to have openness and lost than never to have openness at all?
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Microsoft would have to be crazy to start neutering the PC gaming market.
But then again, most of their PC gaming moves have been completely blind to the realities of what is actually there. They seem to exist in Lala land where their moves aren't completely irrelevant to almost everyone.
Hey, they're porting their games, and I'm happy for that.
But then again, most of their PC gaming moves have been completely blind to the realities of what is actually there. They seem to exist in Lala land where their moves aren't completely irrelevant to almost everyone.
Hey, they're porting their games, and I'm happy for that.
TBiddy
Member
I'm no fan of the Windows Store either, mind you. I'm just making a case for the relevance of universal apps.
LordRaptor
Member
I've said this in previous topics, but UWA doesn't make sense for 'performance' desktop software, which includes 'core' gaming as a subset.
The performance differentials, usage expectations, and input capabilities are so vast between Phone, Console and Desktop that it is unrealistic to expect something interoperable between all three that isn't anything more than a thin client for something like a web based service (ie a Netflix App or a Twitter App).
Even excluding the biggest outlier of performance, and concentrating on solely PC and Xbox, even really fundamental differences between the two platforms are apparent; they don't use RAM in the same way. They have radically different input methods. One is a fixed performance device, one is radically scalable in every direction.
There is literally never going to be a scenario where you could write a game that 'just works' for the Xbox One and also Desktop PCs with no additional work required on either end, and if you are actively required to do additional work anyway, why would you choose the 'noob trap' option that limits your potential sales and is vocally disliked by your target audience?
TBiddy
Member
I agree, somewhat. You can absolutely make smaller games, based on UWA, that work (more or less) as is, on several platforms. AAA games is another story, of course. But that doesn't make UWA irrelevant or mean that "UWAs have no real benefit to anyone that is not directly employed or funded by MS", as you wrote.
ProfessorMoran
Member
They don't own the pc gaming market, nothing really goes through them right now, they probably want to be the gate keeper to a smaller market than watch Valve rake it in with Steam. As long as Steam exists and is strong, Windows store is basically far behind, no doubt it's in MS's best interest in terms of being the store front for pc games to significantly cannibalize Steam.
When it comes to games, UWP means only "C++ and DirectX 12", so from a performance standpoint is perfectly fine.
dragonelite
Member
Isn't Forza: Apex using uwp and delivering on the performance side of things.
And given most games probably only need some of the uwp specific things like threading, network and file io from uwp.
The rest of the code is in engine stuff which is not connected to uwp.
The handmade heroes series on youtube has some good videos on how to design a multiplatform game engine.
Also sharing 95+% of the code base between the pc and xbox builds is a huge win in maintenance and bug fixing.
LordRaptor
Member
Unless you are talking about solely Xbox One development, there is no such restriction.
Its entirely possible to write a game in Silverlight using DX11 and release it as a UWA.
Not really, because they won't share 95% of the codebase, and if you expect to sell copies on the PC you don't release games with as many restrictions as possible on them so you will end up with one X1 branch, that has to go through cert to patch, one UWA branch that has to go through cert to patch and one traditional PC branch patched as bugs are found.
In essence you've just doubled the workload on PC development and maintenance for... I dunno, a value add to your X1 customers?
e:
I mean, you would really need to define what you mean by "95% of the codebase" because a PS4 game and an Xbox One game on modern middleware share "95% of the codesbase".
The "95%" is shit only a handful of people on the planet worry about.
The meaningful problems are in the code that ONLY works on one specific platform, and that scenario does not change at all until all PCs have unified memory pools / GCGPUs / many weak cores instead of fewer stronger cores etc etc etc
Or in other words when all Pcs are exactly the same as Xbox Ones, which is never.
Its absolute pisspoor reasoning.
I've said this before, but if this was a legitimate case that Sweeney is presenting with MS and the sabotaging of Steam, and you the prosecutor simply said "Well apparently theyve done it before, theyve got a reputation you know!" as your testimony you will get laughed hard out the fucking building.
You want to talk about Netscape? Cool
You want to talk about Steam? Prove. It.
Parapraxis
Member
Proving Non-Existence
Description: Demanding that one proves the non-existence of something in place for providing adequate evidence for the existence of that something. Although it may be possible to prove non-existence in special situations, such as showing that a container does not contain certain items, one cannot prove universal or absolute non-existence. The proof of existence must come from those who make the claims.
Logical Form:
I cannot prove that X exists, so you prove that it doesn’t.
If you can’t, X exists.
If you want it to be universal (PC, Mobile, Xbox, HoloLens, Surface Hub, maybe even IoT), no, you cannot.
Windows PC allows a lot of things that other OneCore platforms do not. Centennial is making that even worse, really.
LordRaptor
Member
The UWA APIs are in C++ but according to MSDN documentation not only is there no restriction in what language you create an app, it boasts being able to use many different languages developers are already familiar with as a feature, nor does it restrict you to using DX12.
I think you can use DX11 too (though not sure about the Xbox, still waiting for the 1607 SDK to be finalized to see what it says). 11 and 12 should at least span Mobile and PC. But if you want DX9 or OGL, well...
michaelius
Banned
Microsoft doesn't give a ..... about pc gaming unless it is selling games through their store.
Also this: http://www.windowscentral.com/you-can-disable-cortana-windows-10 Which is what I was basically explaining.
Garrett 2U
Member
It's almost like Windows 10 didn't improve gaming performance, DirectX 12 wasn't released, the Xbox One controller isn't supported on PC, and they didn't add features to UWP to improve gamer experience!
Well turns out Microsoft will now cut out the ability for Pro users to even edit out certain things via Policies - http://www.ghacks.net/2016/07/28/microsoft-removes-policies-windows-10-pro/
Seriously, this is a step far
Why "Whoosh" - the point of having open development is accessibility to multiple forks, letting people do what they want for their own purposes. This is how this should be, Epic are not supporting it right now, but MS sure can, just as Oculus can and have done their own fork, and more
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