Support NeoGAF

[Alo0oy]

Even if you put aside all the absolutely horrible, racist things Nimble America and its founders stand for (which you shouldn't because dear god, we need to talk about that more), I'm still confused about why you'd put money behind a group that thinks shitposting is a really effective and helpful tool for communication. Like, under which circumstances does their goal seem noble? Like, even if they were doing it for, let's say, spreading info on Global Warming... it's still shitposting and acting like total dickwads on the internet. How is that a worthy cause to pledge money towards?

There's so much here that goes way beyond Trump, in terms of looking at Luckey's philosophy. It's basically coming down what he believes is acceptable communication, what he thinks are the right things to be saying on the internet, and the ways they should be said. It's all hateful, festering, nonsense. You should never put any faith in a person that believes in this.

Sounds like the average 4chan poster, shitpost, dox, and harass "just 4 the lulz..

 

[Oersted]

Sounds like the average 4chan poster, shitpost, dox, and harass "just 4 the lulz..

Yes, they are shit and proud of being shit.

 

[malboroking]

Understood. Thanks.

I dont know if you were being sincere in not understanding why this was a big deal or not, but please understand that when people blow up at you for asking, it's because we've had to deal with a million and one "just asking questions" juniors in gamergate threads who are just trying to stir the pot.

 

[malboroking]

You know, I never thought about it, but what do anti-immigrant type racists think of Native Americans? I mean, they're not immigrants.

I assume they hate them, too, but their flimsy "we were here first" rationale obviously fails extra hard in the face of someone whose ancestors were literally here first.

Something something, white mans burden, blah blah blah.

 

[Neuromancer]

I wonder how this will affect Scorpio with VR support.

This is my burning question. I am interested in Scorpio solely for its VR capabilities but I don't want to reward Palmer's disgusting behavior by buying an Oculus Rift headset (assuming he's still at the company, and MS partners with them.)

 

[Aselith]

Reminds me of this picture

Spoiler

Go try counting the non white males in the room

I can't count because I'm too focused on the oncoming headlights. Must have been a real cold room!

 

[Charles Alan Ratliff]

With Oculus Connect in less than a week, I wonder if we'll get anything more out of Oculus by then. This is where they'll be announcing the date and price of their Touch controllers, so it's going to be a pretty important event for them. This controversy is going to hang over it, though, even more so if they remain silent.

 

[Lightning_Roller]

With Oculus Connect in less than a week, I wonder if we'll get anything more out of Oculus by then. This is where they'll be announcing the date and price of their Touch controllers, so it's going to be a pretty important event for them. This controversy is going to hang over it, though, even more so if they remain silent.

They'll probably say some throwaway comment about it, an empty apology added and then talk about the controllers.

I also expect booing as well.

 

[mclem]

If this nimble america thing never existed and he said that he was supporting Trump everyone would have still been trying to roast him. You can't lean right and be a public figure. You will get shunned and looked at as if you were a leper. Surprised he didn't know this.

I disagree a lot with, say, P J O'Rourke, but I wouldn't regard him as persona non grata.

 

[Tain]

Really hoping Facebook addresses this, but the window is closing.

 

[FlyinJ]

Vice's new gaming podcast talks about Palmer at length:

http://www.vice.com/read/listen-to-vice-gamings-new-podcast-right-now

It's kind of crappy how they mention that guy who tweeted "you're not a bad person if you don't resign from a company run by a racist if you need to feed your family" softening Palmer's actions.

While that's true, it doesn't really take into consideration his employees that are minorities, women or LGBT. They don't just have working for a racist bigot on their "conscious", they are working for someone who takes the profits of their labor to fund an organization that's purpose is to make people hate them.

It's a lot harder for those people to just shrug off working for a boss like that, and it's incredibly fucked up that there ever was that choice forced upon them in the first place by Facebook and Oculus.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I'm so confused by this. Did I miss something? Is this guy being demonized solely because he supports trump or did he do something else?

Cause despite who trump is, nobody should be this lit for their political views and I find it extremely disturbing that game devs will cancel a bunch of games just cause one guy isn't voting for who they think is the better candidate.

Supporting trump on his own is a reason to raise an eyebrow but hay, your funeral.

Supporting trump, donating to the altt-right and creating a racistt, bigoted persona online? Might be a problem.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I mean luckey is a shit and all, but people using this as a proxy for VR and console wars are a bit out there.

 

[True Fire]

This is probably going to be swept under the rug guys. I think it says a lot about the true intent behind Facebook's "diversity" programs. I've faced this a lot in my career; diversity is only important in the workplace until it's inconvenient. :/

 

[Kyuur]

I don't understand what people want from Oculus and Facebook. Luckey is already only 'Founder' of Oculus after Facebook's acquisition and likely has no (or little, soon to be no) authority in the company. Any payment scheme to him is likely set in stone from the initial transaction and non-negotiable regardless of what he is functionally doing for the company.

The options seem fairly simple for me; either don't support Oculus at all because a piece of the pie will go to Luckey (I hope you're already boycotting most manufactured goods for their involvement with companies like Foxconn, btw) or continue supporting a product and company that was made by dozens, hundreds of people that continually employed and working on it.

 

[Lady Gaia]

I've faced this a lot in my career; diversity is only important in the workplace until it's inconvenient. :/

Sad, but all too often true. Fostering diversity takes a lot more than platitudes and policies on paper. It's actual hard work that is all too often seen as a distraction from an organization's more familiar goals.

 

[Neuromancer]

I don't understand what people want from Oculus and Facebook. Luckey is already only 'Founder' of Oculus after Facebook's acquisition and likely has no (or little, soon to be no) authority in the company. Any payment scheme to him is likely set in stone from the initial transaction and non-negotiable regardless of what he is functionally doing for the company.

The options seem fairly simple for me; either don't support Oculus at all because a piece of the pie will go to Luckey (I hope you're already boycotting most manufactured goods for their involvement with companies like Foxconn, btw) or continue supporting a product and company that was made by dozens, hundreds of people that continually employed and working on it.

Would you go so far as to say to trust you, you're an expert?

 

[Lady Gaia]

I don't understand what people want from Oculus and Facebook.

Of course there are going to be a wide range of answers, but I stated mine in at least one thread on the subject. Facebook/Oculus should make a strong public statement recommitting to supporting diversity among employees and partners. They should then make a public contribution to one or more non-political groups that advocate for the rights of frequently marginalized minorities to offset the damage done.

 

[Fisty]

Reposting so everyone can cringe again

Someone in the audience asked Palmer Luckey a rather odd but revealing question: Why did he and his chief technology officer, video game pioneer John Carmack, often speak of a “moral imperative” to bring virtual reality to the masses?

“This is one of those crazy man topics,” Luckey answered, “but it comes down to this: Everyone wants to have a happy life, but it’s going to be impossible to give everyone everything they want.” Instead, he went on, developers can now create virtual versions of real experiences that are only enjoyed by the planet’s privileged few, which they can then bestow to the destitute of the world.

Palmer will bestow upon the unwashed masses the opiate of VR, quelling civil unrest and placating the worker ants to perform their functions without conflict. Hell, the rich won't even need VR in this ethnically pure utopia. The fact that Carmack might be associated with this line of thinking just makes me sick

 

[GearDraxon]

Vice's new gaming podcast talks about Palmer at length:

http://www.vice.com/read/listen-to-vice-gamings-new-podcast-right-now

It's kind of crappy how they mention that guy who tweeted "you're not a bad person if you don't resign from a company run by a racist if you need to feed your family" softening Palmer's actions.

While that's true, it doesn't really take into consideration his employees that are minorities, women or LGBT. They don't just have working for a racist bigot on their "conscious", they are working for someone who takes the profits of their labor to fund an organization that's purpose is to make people hate them.

It's a lot harder for those people to just shrug off working for a boss like that, and it's incredibly fucked up that there ever was that choice forced upon them in the first place by Facebook and Oculus.

Note that the person they quote is a member of the trans community, and knows *exactly* what they are talking about. It's what Austin and Patrick go on to discuss: there is a hierarchy of needs, and someone who is employed by Oculus while also being a member of a group targeted by Nimble America may not be in a position to simply up and quit.

They are not "softening his actions," they are acknowledging that his actions make these sorts of choices even harder for minority employees, and expecting them to drop their livelihood because the founder is a scumbag may not be realistic.

Thoughtful people usually want to make choices that better the world they live in, but everyone's situation is different. I'm lucky enough to be in a situation where Palmer's actions only impact my choice of toy. If my employment was tied to him, I'd feel bad enough already.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Of course there are going to be a wide range of answers, but I stated mine in at least one thread on the subject. Facebook/Oculus should make a strong public statement recommitting to supporting diversity among employees and partners. They should then make a public contribution to one or more non-political groups that advocate for the rights of frequently marginalized minorities to offset the damage done.

Instead we have silence from Facebook, and a whole bunch of bullshit from Iribe and Rubin

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Reposting so everyone can cringe again



Palmer will bestow upon the unwashed masses the opiate of VR, quelling civil unrest and placating the worker ants to perform their functions without conflict. Hell, the rich won't even need VR in this ethnically pure utopia. The fact that Carmack might be associated with this line of thinking just makes me sick

This isn't cringey to me, it's why I was so disappointed in Luckey... I agree that VR will bring transformative experiences to people that they never would otherwise experience.

 

[El-Suave]

I wish Americans would stop calling those guys alt right - since when do extremists get to pick the name by which society calls them? You end up with flattering and legitimate sounding names like this. It is seriously annoying me that your country is falling for this.

 

[Snowybreak]

The options seem fairly simple for me; either don't support Oculus at all because a piece of the pie will go to Luckey (I hope you're already boycotting most manufactured goods for their involvement with companies like Foxconn, btw) or continue supporting a product and company that was made by dozens, hundreds of people that continually employed and working on it.

You might wanna restate this, because it looks like you're trying to guilt trip people into supporting Oculus with their money. Hey guess what, Oculus is a public face amongst the gaming community, Foxconn is a contactor for building shit. No one buys Foxconn-branded VR HMDs.

This is the difference between saying "I don't like what the face of this company is saying since it might be indicative of the rest of the company" versus "I won't buy this phone because the company chose a cheap contractor that happens to have a virtual monopoly on a specific market. Said company does shitty stuff, but since they have a tight grip on the rest of the industry, I would have to research literally every chip-based device I buy to make sure that it doesn't use Foxconn manufactured parts."

It is much easier for people to say "nah, fuck Oculus." Plus it's the same thing some Turkish GAF members were saying when someone said "I'm not going to vacation in Turkey due to their persecution of LGBT people." You can't force someone to spend money on something just because you want that thing to succeed.

 

[Ominym]

The options seem fairly simple for me; either don't support Oculus at all because a piece of the pie will go to Luckey (I hope you're already boycotting most manufactured goods for their involvement with companies like Foxconn, btw) or continue supporting a product and company that was made by dozens, hundreds of people that continually employed and working on it.

Ah, look. It's the same tired argument that gets trotted out every time something like this happens because people seem to think it's some sort of hypocritical trump card.

"If you're okay with one wrong thing? You better be okay with ALL the wrong things. Hypocrite."

 

[Quote]

I don't understand what people want from Oculus and Facebook. Luckey is already only 'Founder' of Oculus after Facebook's acquisition and likely has no (or little, soon to be no) authority in the company. Any payment scheme to him is likely set in stone from the initial transaction and non-negotiable regardless of what he is functionally doing for the company.

The options seem fairly simple for me; either don't support Oculus at all because a piece of the pie will go to Luckey (I hope you're already boycotting most manufactured goods for their involvement with companies like Foxconn, btw) or continue supporting a product and company that was made by dozens, hundreds of people that continually employed and working on it.

Or I support another company?

How I spend my money isn't really any of your business anyways.

 

[chrominance]

Note that the person they quote is a member of the trans community, and knows *exactly* what they are talking about. It's what Austin and Patrick go on to discuss: there is a hierarchy of needs, and someone who is employed by Oculus while also being a member of a group targeted by Nimble America may not be in a position to simply up and quit.

They are not "softening his actions," they are acknowledging that his actions make these sorts of choices even harder for minority employees, and expecting them to drop their livelihood because the founder is a scumbag may not be realistic.

Thoughtful people usually want to make choices that better the world they live in, but everyone's situation is different. I'm lucky enough to be in a situation where Palmer's actions only impact my choice of toy. If my employment was tied to him, if feel bad enough already.

Yeah, this is basically my take too. Kramer's message was intended to comfort Oculus employees who may suddenly find their principles and their practical needs in conflict for no reason besides their boss revealing themselves to be a giant shitlord. It's another way of saying that Oculus employees are also victims of Luckey's shitposting campaign, not just because of the business impact from developers and users pulling support but also because of this internal conflict.

 

[Kyuur]

Of course there are going to be a wide range of answers, but I stated mine in at least one thread on the subject. Facebook/Oculus should make a strong public statement recommitting to supporting diversity among employees and partners. They should then make a public contribution to one or more non-political groups that advocate for the rights of frequently marginalized minorities to offset the damage done.

This is fair; the PR statement is kind of an inevitability in my mind and doesn't do much, but donating to a group like that would be a great gesture.

Would you go so far as to say to trust you, you're an expert?

Unless Palmer is an idiot, I find it highly unlikely he didn't negotiate a piece of the pie for himself. Maybe Facebook has a clause in there that says "if you're a PR disaster we stop paying you" but I dunno. Seems unlikely. You don't need to trust my guesses though.

You might wanna restate this, because it looks like you're trying to guilt trip people into supporting Oculus with their money. Hey guess what, Oculus is a public face amongst the gaming community, Foxconn is a contactor for building shit. No one buys Foxconn-branded VR HMDs.

This is the difference between saying "I don't like what the face of this company is saying since it might be indicative of the rest of the company" versus "I won't buy this phone because the company chose a cheap contractor that happens to have a virtual monopoly on a specific market. Said company does shitty stuff, but since they have a tight grip on the rest of the industry, I would have to research literally every chip-based device I buy to make sure that it doesn't use Foxconn manufactured parts."

It is much easier for people to say "nah, fuck Oculus." Plus it's the same thing some Turkish GAF members were saying when someone said "I'm not going to vacation in Turkey due to their persecution of LGBT people." You can't force someone to spend money on something just because you want that thing to succeed.

Ah, look. It's the same tired argument that gets trotted out every time something like this happens because people seem to think it's some sort of hypocritical trump card.

"If you're okay with one wrong thing? You better be okay with ALL the wrong things. Hypocrite."

You're both right, it was kind of a shitty and loaded jab to make. I'm definitely not trying to guilt people in buying Oculus; it just seems like if you were already considering it over other sets, this is a weird thing to switch on.

I'll leave it in the original as record of my shame!

Or I support another company?

How I spend my money isn't really any of your business anyways.

Feel free to support another company. I have no stake in this, just wanted to know what kind of action people were looking for with all these articles besides a public skewering.

 

[FlyinJ]

I wish Americans would stop calling those guys alt right - since when do extremists get to pick the name by which society calls them? You end up with flattering and legitimate sounding names like this. It is seriously annoying me that your country is falling for this.

I use it here because whenever I post "white supremacy" there are 10 posts of "OMG THATS TEH UNFAIRE WHERE IS THE WHITE SUPREMACY HE JUST LIKES TRUMP" and I got sick of explaining that the alt-right is a rebranding of white supremacy.

So, I just use the term "racist alt-right".

 

[Usobuko]

Facebook has been shameful, the window to this fiasco has closed.

 

[call_kotaku]

This is fair; the PR statement is kind of an inevitability in my mind and doesn't do much, but donating to a group like that would be a great gesture.



Unless Palmer is an idiot, I find it highly unlikely he didn't negotiate a piece of the pie for himself. Maybe Facebook has a clause in there that says "if you're a PR disaster we stop paying you" but I dunno. Seems unlikely. You don't need to trust my guesses though.





You're both right, it was kind of a shitty and loaded jab to make. I'm definitely not trying to guilt people in buying Oculus; it just seems like if you were already considering it over other sets, this is a weird thing to switch on.

I'll leave it in the original as record of my shame!



Feel free to support another company. I have no stake in this, just wanted to know what kind of action people were looking for with all these articles besides a public skewering.

most of the consumers and developers I've read about who are "boycotting" Oculus were already uneasy or frustrated with the company, and this was just a way to make a difficult decision a lot easier. You have a competing platform that's currently more advanced and run by a company that has weirdo libertarian philosophies and a slightly condescending attitude towards its customers, but one that's friendlier to devs and as far as we know doesn't directly support hate groups.

Plus the "unless you're a saint don't complain" argument is sort of a slippery slope. At best it justifies apathy, and at worst used to discredit people who actual grievances.

 

[Mahonay]

A town in Pennsylvania is forcing out their mayor for the kind of shit Palmer is getting up to
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/29/politics/racist-facebook-posts-pennsylvania-mayor/index.html

Yet Oculus/Facebook have still just said Luckey's shitty ass non-apology is good enough. Jason Rubin should be fucking ashamed of himself. If you actually care about your other employees it's time to step in and do something, like yesterday.

 

[Drackhorn]

Isn't this what people call freedom?

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
That Voltaire quote is still valid in my book because the opposite is more frightening.

 

[Kelsdesu]

We absolutely have to speak with our wallets on this one.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Isn't this what people call freedom?

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
That Voltaire quote is still valid in my book because the opposite is more frightening.

The opposite of shitting on minorities is more frightening?

 

[Mahonay]

Isn't this what people call freedom?

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
That Voltaire quote is still valid in my book because the opposite is more frightening.

Oculus is a company that has employees whom this derogatory stuff is directly aimed at. This is not about the law, like at all.

Why does spreading hate seem so important to you?

 

[call_kotaku]

Isn't this what people call freedom?

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
That Voltaire quote is still valid in my book because the opposite is more frightening.

nobody is asking that Palmer Luckey be arrested or charged with a crime

 

[Drackhorn]

The opposite of shitting on minorities is more frightening?

I am part of a minority. I have rather people tell me how they really feel about me in my face. If they are not allowed to express themselves I can't combat them with reason. Political correctness does not change the way people think, it just shuts them up.

 

[Mahonay]

I am part of a minority. I have rather people tell me how they really feel about me in my face. If they are not allowed to express themselves I can't combat them with reason. Political correctness does not change the way people think, it just shuts them up.

Funding a hate group with $10,000 is a weird way to express yourself.

 

[Drackhorn]

Funding a hate group with $10,000 is a weird way to express yourself.

Then call them out and try to discuss.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

Isn't this what people call freedom?

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
That Voltaire quote is still valid in my book because the opposite is more frightening.

I think we're actively disagreeing with what Palmer is financially supporting... So, I guess... What's your point? No one is calling for his ability to do so to be taken away or saying it's a better option. Free speech should exist, along with the freedom to speak against.

It's like you're trying to add a depth which appears deep but in reality is rather shallow?

 

[Mahonay]

Then call them out and try to discuss.

The company that he's the face of should be doing this, instead we got a non-apology from Luckey and a "good enough" from Rubin.

The other employees at Oculus deserve better.

ALSO WE ARE DOING WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING RIGHT NOW.

What is your point??

 

[call_kotaku]

Then call them out and try to discuss.

That's exactly what people are doing?

"I'm not going to put money into your company unless I'm certain it's not going towards white supremacists" isn't the SJWs coming to take your rights away. It's a reasonable stance since Facebook/Oculus basically responded with "we're sorry you're offended", and unless they either remove Luckey or acknowledge why people are upset then that's how it's going to be.

 

[Bionic]

Then call them out and try to discuss.

I'm unclear on what it is you think we are doing, as I'm reasonably sure that is exactly what is happening.

That's exactly what people are doing?

"I'm not going to put money into your company unless I'm certain it's not going towards white supremacists" isn't the skeletons coming to take your rights away. It's a reasonable stance since Facebook/Oculus basically responded with "we're sorry you're offended", and unless they either remove Luckey or acknowledge why people are upset then that's how it's going to be.

Jinx, you owe me a coke.

 

[Tubobutts]

Isn't this what people call freedom?

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
That Voltaire quote is still valid in my book because the opposite is more frightening.

What exactly are you defending? Nobody is calling for him to be arrested. At most people are saying that they won't give money to Oculus as long as he works there.

Does defending free speech mean you're obligated to give money to people whose views you disagree with or something?

 

[Aselith]

Then call them out and try to discuss.

"No, I want him dead right now!", said Nobody

 

[Briarios]

Isn't this what people call freedom?

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
That Voltaire quote is still valid in my book because the opposite is more frightening.

Defending someone's right to say something is very different from defending that person from the repercussions of that speech. He has every right to publicly out himself as a racist and face the repercussions of doing so.

I also find it pretty interesting that you pick Voltaire to defend this ... a man who thought blacks were a lesser species.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

Defending someone's right to say something is very different from defending that person from the repercussions of that speech. He has every right to publicly out himself as a racist and face the repercussions of doing so.

I also find it pretty interesting that you pick Voltaire to defend this ... a man who thought blacks were a lesser species.

This is likely not a coincidence.

 

[Mahonay]

Defending someone's right to say something is very different from defending that person from the repercussions of that speech. He has every right to publicly out himself as a racist and face the repercussions of doing so.

I also find it pretty interesting that you pick Voltaire to defend this ... a man who thought blacks were a lesser species.

I don't find it surprising at all as I've known people that attempt to make their racism, or some other prejudice, seem more intellectual by quoting people like Voltaire.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

I don't find it surprising at all as I've known people that attempt to make their racism, or some other prejudice, seem more intellectual by quoting people like Voltaire.

Pseudo intelligence often justifies the unjustifiable. But, hell, what does history have to teach us....