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[TheYanger]

Uhm, this thread is full of exactly that demand. And that was what that poster was refering to.

No, he wasn't, he was literally doing the same shit you're doing here, generalizing that people only want the game to be easy. What a bullshit notion. Street Fighter has had plenty of games with "EO" style command inputs. Nobody has ever given a shit about these modes existing in other fighting games before, it's only now that SF5 gets taken to task that the apologists stand up and start pushing back on things that have never once been considered bizarre for existing in these games.

Easier than they've ever been? How? THEY WERE ALREADY THERE. SF5 took that and a hundred other aspects of the game OUT of the game. And then sales were shit. What a shocker. Maybe there's something to that.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Honestly, Capcom needs to look at what Netherrealm did to ensure there's lots of content even if you don't play online. They made a successful MK game in a time where they were considered shit, and even then they had more content than Street Fighter will ever have.

 

[Mupod]

Rising Thunder proved that having no execution requirements did not change things at all. Many people playing it were already fighting game fans who heard about it at EVO and/or because of its association with Seth Killian. And they dominated in exactly the same way they would if the game had been a 'normal' fighter.

 

[mnz]

No, he wasn't, he was literally doing the same shit you're doing here, generalizing that people only want the game to be easy. What a bullshit notion. Street Fighter has had plenty of games with "EO" style command inputs. Nobody has ever given a shit about these modes existing in other fighting games before, it's only now that SF5 gets taken to task that the apologists stand up and start pushing back on things that have never once been considered bizarre for existing in these games.

Easier than they've ever been? How? THEY WERE ALREADY THERE. SF5 took that and a hundred other aspects of the game OUT of the game. And then sales were shit. What a shocker. Maybe there's something to the fact that.

I'm out. Come back when you've calmed down or something. Pathetic.

Rising Thunder proved that having no execution requirements did not change things at all. Many people playing it were already fighting game fans who heard about it at EVO and/or because of its association with Seth Killian. And they dominated in exactly the same way they would if the game had been a 'normal' fighter.

The only thing it changed was that the game immediately went to other levels of improvement. "FADC" is easy now? Ok, let me develop my ambigous mixups then. Beginners get gestroyed all the same. The same people win in the end.

 

[Z..]

I won't deny that I'm sure that there are people that feel that they have to validate the time they put in the game. Believe me, I really don't care about execution per se - I veehemently defended SFV's easier links - specially since these days I no longer have the time nor the drive to put in the effort I used to.

All I want is for the game to be competitive. If you can find a way to make easy inputs feel good to use without giving any advantages to the player so actually good players could abuse it then go for it.

It's definitely possible. Would be quite a bit more complicated balance-wise for the dev team but it's not so much hard as it is resource consuming (time and money).
The important part would be to not lose sight of the game's vision. As in, make it the traditional way from the ground up and only then focus on making it work with a secondary input. There should be no concessions made to the core experience for the sake of an optional alternative!
Totally worth it if it resulted in renewed interest from the casual crowd, though!

 

[Mik317]

There is no execution, that's the whole point. It's an unnecessary arbitrary barrier with no intrinsic value. I like it too, but it has no actual value, it is hard for the sake of being hard without actually equating to a real skill. It's fictitious in nature and brings nothing to the game.

Don't you understand how that might drive newcomers away? Oo it's clutter, by definition.

Why the italics, btw?

Except their execution is exactly what makes them the best of the best... the potential to fuck up your move is a major part of things. If everyone had garuanteed shoryus even with cool down... it wouldn't close the gap at all... if anything it widens it.

again more single player stuff and better tutorials would be a major help but your solution only serves to alienate more people than it would help and imo would create a much worse game overall. im not even that great at execution or fighting games at all but I would never want that aspect to change for me alone because I know what it adds to the games balance wise. It's not me being elitist just thinking that's a shit solution

 

[SneakersSO]

Ask tekken and MK, they do it.

No, they don't. MK sells a ton of copies, but its not like that game is doing what UltraDavid is describing here, in that a percentage of this large casual audience is turning around and playing the game on a competitive level. That isn't happening with MK. Let's put this in context - if 5% of the total amount of people who purchased copies of MKX turnaround & pursued the game competitively, it would be the most competitively played fighting game of all time; heck it would do that with 1% actually. If 20% of the game's audience tuned into streams, it would be the most watched fighting game of all time. But even though MK is one of the most casually appealing fighting game series ever, this transition from casuals to competitive play or viewership has NEVER happened with the series. Also, Tekken hasn't been a casual fighter in almost a decade. Not in terms of sales, anyway; series peaked with Tekken 3 and each subsequent entry has had lesser & lesser sales.

When UltraDavid & others make this argument about appealing to the casual crowd, they need to understand that fighting games as a casual & endeavor and fighting games as a competitive scene aren't synonymous. The only fighting game that is having that turn around even remotely is Smash Bros., and I don't think anyone is arguing that they want SF, MK, Tekken, or any other game in the larger Fighting game genre to just turn around & adopt the fundamentals Smash Bros. presents.

When I said SFV needs a rerelease, I said it because there are a lot of stigmas that would be washed away overnight if they just did that. Even with the game being mostly whats available right now, it would still do it. Fix 2 quality of life issues, repackage it & you fix a few word of mouth stigmas without even trying, as well as becoming one of the greatest fighting games ever made. Everyone is basically in agreement that SFV's gameplay is ace. What the game needs is to just improve load times, improve matchmaking, include a few more SP gameplay modes, and you'd have a game everyone would love, although the haters would still hate.

 

[TheYanger]

I'm out, come back when you've calmed down or something.


The only thing it changed was that the game immediately went to other levels of improvement. "FADC" is easy now? Ok, let me develop my ambigous mixups then. Beginners get gestroyed all the same. The same people win in the end.

So you have no actual answer then. I'm perfectly calm. If it's confusing to you that people want the game to be what every other Street Fighter home release has been for 20 years, then there's not much else to say.

If people want Easy Inputs, don't let them do it in online competition. Done. Or just don't let them do it at high ELOs, whatever, it's trivial to not have that impact any high end online play, and at actual tournaments it would just be disallowed anyway. It's a strawman to try and pretend there's some integrity that would be lost by allowing it when so many games have done it already.

 

[Mit-]

A new release is also the only way they're ever going to sell more copies of the game. There are about two million people who play the game (same was true for 4). They have the game. There is no one left to buy it. A new release gets new sales from those same people. Free DLC gets none.

 

[mnz]

So you have no actual answer then. I'm perfectly calm. If it's confusing to you that people want the game to be what every other Street Fighter home release has been for 20 years, then there's not much else to say.

If people want Easy Inputs, don't let them do it in online competition. Done. Or just don't let them do it at high ELOs, whatever, it's trivial to not have that impact any high end online play, and at actual tournaments it would just be disallowed anyway. It's a strawman to try and pretend there's some integrity that would be lost by allowing it when so many games have done it already.

I don't even understand what you're talking about. Is it missing features? Yes. Is it harder? No, the opposite. SF4 had much tougher execution. So did SF3. SF2 is whole different beast. There, it's hard to do actual reversals. All of that is easier now.

What easy mode have they taken out? What are you talking about?

 

[Omnistalgic]

Listen to Omni for I am great :/

- launch a FTP version with just Ryu/Chun w 2 stages
- Re-launch once the roster hits 30 fighters and Arcade mode
- Make survival mode good
- Guest characters from other franchises that fit SF
- World Tour/Quest mode equivalent
- Mini-games like smashing cars/bricks and dodging barrels
- bring back character round interactions ex. Shoto fist bump

Watch the players flock back in...

Listen to Omni Cap..

 

[Mik317]

So you have no actual answer then. I'm perfectly calm. If it's confusing to you that people want the game to be what every other Street Fighter home release has been for 20 years, then there's not much else to say.

If people want Easy Inputs, don't let them do it in online competition. Done. Or just don't let them do it at high ELOs, whatever, it's trivial to not have that impact any high end online play, and at actual tournaments it would just be disallowed anyway. It's a strawman to try and pretend there's some integrity that would be lost by allowing it when so many games have done it already.

That's fine I guess. Not sure I remember any mainline game having it but sure. Like I said more single player stuff is needed. I just disagreed with changing the inputs... and I also think the guy/gal you came up with that idea wanted it to be a universal change ... but ok

 

[SneakersSO]

There is no execution, that's the whole point. It's an unnecessary arbitrary barrier with no intrinsic value. I like it too, but it has no actual value, it is hard for the sake of being hard without actually equating to a real skill. It's fictitious in nature and brings nothing to the game.

Don't you understand how that might drive newcomers away? Oo it's clutter, by definition.

Why the italics, btw?

What I find hilarious about your posts is that, we live in a post-Rising Thunder world, and the larger fgc & casuals largely rejected that game, despite it having exactly what you describe is necessary for fighting games to reach out to a larger audience.

Special inputs do have a ton of value in that they provide 'feel' to characters & how they play. We don't notice this, but when we play characters, much of how we approach them on an individual level is shaped by our brain's interpretation on how to best play the character relative to how we gain access to their special moves. We do this subconsciously. Thats why a lot of people, when they first approach a character in Smash bros., tend to play them identical to others - because all special inputs are the same to other characters in that game. It isn't until you spend way more time with a character in Smash that you start to figure out what works best for that character, and usually thats because you start picking up particular cause & effect patterns in matches.

In that sense, special inputs can be used to give the player a basic, immediate idea on how to play the character more effectively before they have to suffer a multitude of losses. Turning specials into just a 1-button input removes a layer of 'feel' to the character & the gameplay. It happened with Rising Thunder - its one of the reasons why few people ever connected with its cast.

 

[Z..]

Except their execution is exactly what makes them the best of the best... the potential to fuck up your move is a major part of things. If everyone had garuanteed shoryus even with cool down... it wouldn't close the gap at all... if anything it widens it.

again more single player stuff and better tutorials would be a major help but your solution only serves to alienate more people than it would help and imo would create a much worse game overall. im not even that great at execution or fighting games at all but I would never want that aspect to change for me alone because I know what it adds to the games balance wise. It's not me being elitist just thinking that's a shit solution

It's like people have never seen high level smash play... Plenty of screw ups still going on, there are no guaranteed inputs just because they are more streamlined, that is a fallacious conclusion.

As previously stated, the game would be completely unchanged and still be balanced around the traditional experience and only then adapted into alternate input methods. How would the game be worse if it stayed the same?

It's such a shit solution they've actually implemented it before in SSF2TR.

Curious how improved accesibility would alienate more people if the core experience remains unchanged, btw.

 

[Mik317]

It's like people have never seen high level smash play... Plenty of screw ups still going on, there are no guaranteed inputs just because they are more streamlined, that is a fallacious conclusion.

As previously stated, the game would be completely unchanged and still be balanced around the traditional experience and only then adapted into alternate input methods. How would the game be worse if it stayed the same?

It's such a shit solution they've actually implemented it before in SSF2TR.

Curious how improved accesibility would alienate more people if the core experience remains unchanged, btw.

The execution in smash is the movement. The very same technical barrier you seem to hate exists...if not more so if we are talking Melee.

Lots of fighters have simple mode... it's great but it's not something I'd want to use all the time.

Your solution of cool downs and such seem like a step back to me , again someone who isn't great either. loss of complexity doesn't seem like the best idea imo.

 

[Z..]

What I find hilarious about your posts is that, we live in a post-Rising Thunder world, and the larger fgc & casuals largely rejected that game, despite it having exactly what you describe is necessary for fighting games to reach out to a larger audience.

Special inputs do have a ton of value in that they provide 'feel' to characters & how they play. We don't notice this, but when we play characters, much of how we approach them on an individual level is shaped by our brain's interpretation on how to best play the character relative to how we gain access to their special moves. We do this subconsciously. Thats why a lot of people, when they first approach a character in Smash bros., tend to play them identical to others - because all special inputs are the same to other characters in that game. It isn't until you spend way more time with a character in Smash that you start to figure out what works best for that character, and usually thats because you start picking up particular cause & effect patterns in matches.

In that sense, special inputs can be used to give the player a basic, immediate idea on how to play the character more effectively before they have to suffer a multitude of losses. Turning specials into just a 1-button input removes a layer of 'feel' to the character & the gameplay. It happened with Rising Thunder - its one of the reasons why few people ever connected with its cast.

Funny that you mention "my posts" and give me the same reply someone else did regarding Rising Thunder (which does not apply for a comparison in the slightest) a page back and which I've been over before.

As for the bolded... As someone who's very first videogame was SF2 at the arcades and Mega Drive and who grew up obssessing over fighting games, I just don't identify with this at all in any way shape or form.

 

[vg260]

A new release is also the only way they're ever going to sell more copies of the game. There are about two million people who play the game (same was true for 4). They have the game. There is no one left to buy it. A new release gets new sales from those same people. Free DLC gets none.

I agree with the bolded. It seems like a re-release/re-packaging is an obvious move.

Furthermore, I think the Fight Money system is badly balanced, and I think it's doing more harm than good. I think they painted themselves into a corner with the free-to-earn character model.

People are getting upset at the idea of not getting their free characters, but how does that help Capcom to keep giving away the most important pieces of content for free? Capcom needs to continue to make money to add more modes, improve the overall technical performance, and implement other QoL fixes. So, it mostly comes down to season passes and cosmetic content.

The problem then is the cost. The price of their costumes jumped dramatically from what people are accustomed to paying for fighters. That's a problem, even if you don't typically buy them. Maybe people will pick out a few, but maybe they would have sold many more if pricing were more reasonable, while also not leaving customers with a bad taste in their mouth because they feel like they're being gouged. Capcom already gets a ton of crap for being greedy (whether deserved or not).

Who knows if it would be a better end result than if they just priced the characters at $5 with reasonably priced cosmetics like MKX, for example. MKX's character and skin content pricing was never really an issue in the same way SF's pricing is by many.

 

[Onemic]

Why is this discussion being based around execution? Ultra David is pretty much saying that the issue was with the single player content and not the core gameplay system.

 

[Z..]

The execution in smash is the movement. The very same technical barrier you seem to hate exists...if not more so if we are talking Melee.

Lots of fighters have simple mode... it's great but it's not something I'd want to use all the time.

Your solution of cool downs and such seem like a step back to me , again someone who isn't great either. loss of complexity doesn't seem like the best idea imo.

The movement is a technical barrier as you pointed out, not an execution one. How does that equate? SF would still have a ton of technical barriers even with streamlined execution. As did Jump Ultimate Stars (where your avatar was one of my fav characters, btw) and as does Smash, as you say. More accessible doesn't mean dumbed down!

I never once mentioned cooldowns and people keep bringing it up. Delays and windups are not cooldowns. And we're talking fractions of seconds, just so you know.

There is no loss of complexity whatsoever, the game is the same, mechanics are the same... it's merely the inputs that get redesigned to facilitate entry.

 

[SneakersSO]

It's like people have never seen high level smash play... Plenty of screw ups still going on, there are no guaranteed inputs just because they are more streamlined, that is a fallacious conclusion.

As previously stated, the game would be completely unchanged and still be balanced around the traditional experience and only then adapted into alternate input methods. How would the game be worse if it stayed the same?

It's such a shit solution they've actually implemented it before in SSF2TR.

Curious how improved accesibility would alienate more people if the core experience remains unchanged, btw.

Because people aren't buying SFV cause they feel inputs are hard. Once again - MKX is the highest selling fighting game of this generation, bar none, and it has special inputs. People don't get turned off from buying a game due to special inputs. Special inputs don't make or break a game to the eyes of the larger audience. Smash isn't necessarily beloved by casuals because it has universal inputs.



Listen up thread - you want to know SFV's biggest problem in courting casuals? It's because the act of playing it isn't casual. All of it is very rigid & committal - none of it feels throwaway. When you approach the game, it feels competitive right from the get go. Competition can be very, very uninviting to the larger audience, and SFV as a gameplay experience screams 'this is super competitive' from the Character Select screen. You pick a character, who looks great & animates on screen, then you sit there for an extended period of time as the game spends its sweet ass time loading you & your opponent into a stage, you play each other, and thats it - match over.

Wanna try another character? Long ass load time, better stick to the character/stage you already picked. Wanna play an AI? Back to main menu, loading times to get there.Wanna switch your controls? Back to main menu, should've thought of that before we got here. Wanna invite a friend to play? other menus, more long ass load times.

Personally, one of the most inviting parts about Smash's gameplay is that you can almost cycle through all its gameplay at a single character select screen. Versus, team battle, items, stages, controls - all of that is accessible through a single character select screen once you reach it, no load times stopping you. That is accessibility.

Do you know how many times I am in the training room and I would like to just check my CFN 'favorite'/friend list & just invite someone to play a casual round or two? Oh wait, can't check that in the training room - gotta back out through more load times and buried in other menus. SFV needs to open its gameplay experience up, but its not in the moment-to-moment gameplay, I mean its letting me alter my gameplay experience or invite others while i'm playing the game in any mode.

Funny that you mention "my posts" and give me the same reply someone else did regarding Rising Thunder (which does not apply for a comparison in the slightest) a page back and which I've been over before.

As for the bolded... As someone who's very first videogame was SF2 at the arcades and Mega Drive and who grew up obssessing over fighting games, I just don't identify with this at all in any way shape or form.

You're arguing for stream lining/removing an execution barrier, then say Rising Thunder doesn't apply to the conversation but Smash does? It just sounds like you're being selective because one game is a success and the other one failed, thus invalidating your argument.

You might not identify with it, but that has been exactly how people have played fighting games, particularly SF2. This is why particular charge characters, not all, but specific ones get labelled as 'defensive' or 'turtles' from the get-go, or some characters get labelled keep-away, or others get labelled rushdown, and all of these labels can apply to characters just by the very simple nature of how their special inputs inform the surface level gameplay, or how we approach them. I know you're saying "well thats not how its ever felt for me", but that is one of the truths of gameplay feel for a lot of fighting games - the way we do the moves with the character we do them with creates a connection between the player & the character they are playing. It's called feel.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

What I find hilarious about your posts is that, we live in a post-Rising Thunder world, and the larger fgc & casuals largely rejected that game, despite it having exactly what you describe is necessary for fighting games to reach out to a larger audience.

I don't recall Rising Thunder being rejected, rather it was a game still in development with less content than even SFV had on release: RT had online VS (ranked), a training room, 6 characters, and 1 stage, and was PC only. That was it, so the game simply failed to maintain interest for long. I personally played it for a while and enjoyed it quite a lot, but put it down in order to wait for it to get more mature. And then it got killed when Riot bought the company.

 

[Zombegoast]

How are you even supposed to make a 1 v 1 skill based game appeal to casuals?

Look at Killer Instinct. For beginners it gives them the option to use Auto or Manual Combos. If they want to go deeper there is Dojo Mode which teaches everything about Fighting Games and having a build in frame data and hitbox viewer.

Also it's F2P with the base price of $20 to Unlock S1 characters.

 

[SUPARSTARX]

Do a "fighting game of the year" release with full S1 season pass content and 200k FM included for $30 or $40. Done.

 

[SneakersSO]

I don't recall Rising Thunder being rejected, rather it was a game still in development with less content than even SFV had on release: RT had online VS (ranked), a training room, 6 characters, and 1 stage, and was PC only. That was it, so the game simply failed to maintain interest for long. I personally played it for a while and enjoyed it quite a lot, but put it down in order to wait for it to get more mature. And then it got killed when Riot bought the company.

The game required more, and the gameplay was actually quite good, but it wasn't able to retain an audience. Like you said, you stopped playing it waiting for more - more of what? the gameplay should be able to just hold you in itself. Several games, particularly on PC of all places, launch barebones & grow out from there. LoL launched with a single gameplay mode, tiny cast of characters (relative to its current roster & its competition when it first opened its beta), and featured a portal that didn't really work, but its gameplay was able to retain an audience, and that game didn't even have a 'training room' - you just had to play the game competitively.

So yes, Rising Thunder did fail at both capturing a larger, more casual audience, or retaining the audience it did appeal to. Maybe that isn't rejection, but it certainly wasn't successful.

 

[PantsuJo]

How are you even supposed to make a 1 v 1 skill based game appeal to casuals?

Too young to remember Soul Calibur, huh?

 

[Fraeon]

I don't recall Rising Thunder being rejected, rather it was a game still in development with less content than even SFV had on release: RT had online VS (ranked), a training room, 6 characters, and 1 stage, and was PC only. That was it, so the game simply failed to maintain interest for long. I personally played it for a while and enjoyed it quite a lot, but put it down in order to wait for it to get more mature. And then it got killed when Riot bought the company.

Pretty much it. It wasn't rejected because of its control scheme. It was simply not given the time to mature before Radiant got bought by Riot. The only control complaint I heard was that adding an FADC style maneuver unnecessarily.

I think everyone is in agreement that the single player content sucks dick but I'd actually kind of want to see a Rising Thunder style Street Fighter from the ground up. I think just adding a simple option for inputs on top of the traditional ones is a waste of time and that if a system like this is to be made, they should go whole hog and rethink how the game would work with that.

Like, how would you differentiate between a flash kick and a shoryuken if you have one button specials? That kind of thing.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

I just want to play the game by myself versus the computer. I have no interest in learning the meta game or playing online. I have the game but I stop playing after launch day. I will come back when I feel there is enough content for players like me. Of course, I have to also pull myself away from other games first.

 

[recursive]

There is no execution, that's the whole point. It's an unnecessary arbitrary barrier with no intrinsic value. I like it too, but it has no actual value, it is hard for the sake of being hard without actually equating to a real skill. It's fictitious in nature and brings nothing to the game.

Don't you understand how that might drive newcomers away? Oo it's clutter, by definition.

Why the italics, btw?

So by this logic tee ball should be a pro sport and is on the same level as baseball. Nevermind all that hand eye coordination required to hit a pitched ball it is unnecessarily hard.

 

[black070]

Just follow the Rainbow Six Siege route..

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Street Fighter VX

- reworked visuals: new default costume for every character and all colors for that costume unlocked, new shaders and visual tweaks, fixed clipping, fixed hair, fixed various characters' faces, new character select screen
- completely new UI, including SF4 style post-match menu for both players
- reduced loading times, much quicker online matchmaking
- arcade mode
- removed survival mode
- world tour mode added
- new training mode music
- Halloween stage removed
- costume colors and alternate costumes (including previously sold as dlc costumes) are unlockable via loot boxes won after beating arcade mode, every 5 online matches or world tour matches
- no more paid dlc, fight money can be used to buy loot boxes, new characters and stages are immediately available with an update

 

[vg260]

- no more paid dlc, fight money can be used to buy loot boxes, new characters and stages are immediately available with an update

Awful. Absolutely not. The game has enough issues without implementing a gambling model, FM or real.

 

[myco666]

I forgot one thing about this simplified input system. Command Throws. Like would these be also direction + button only so I can 720 when walking foward? Sounds like the buff Gief needs.

Street Fighter VX

- reworked visuals: new default costume for every character and all colors for that costume unlocked, new shaders and visual tweaks, fixed clipping, fixed hair, fixed various characters' faces, new character select screen
- completely new UI, including SF4 style post-match menu for both players
- reduced loading times, much quicker online matchmaking
- arcade mode
- removed survival mode
- world tour mode added
- new training mode music
- Halloween stage removed
- costume colors and alternate costumes (including previously sold as dlc costumes) are unlockable via loot boxes won after beating arcade mode, every 5 online matches or world tour matches
- no more paid dlc, fight money can be used to buy loot boxes, new characters and stages are immediately available with an update

I don't like Survival but why it should be removed? I think it needs some rework and not even that much honestly.

Why remove Halloween stage?

No lootboxes please. I don't want that garbage in any game.

 

[muteki]

To casual players the only substantial content is a meat grinder.

 

[Stone Ocean]

- costume colors and alternate costumes (including previously sold as dlc costumes) are unlockable via loot boxes won after beating arcade mode, every 5 online matches or world tour matches
- no more paid dlc, fight money can be used to buy loot boxes, new characters and stages are immediately available with an update

And Capcom will get money to update the game with content how, exactly?

 

[Melubas]

I've played fighting games all my life, played the shit out of every iteration of Street Fighter 4 and was one of the top players in my country for the games lifespan, and I uninstalled SF5 after maybe twenty hours. I did this due to a number of reasons, some of them being the streamlining of characters where every single one practically has the same gameplan, the 3 frame execution buffer which to me ruins the game since it severely oversimplifies things, the stubby normals that makes most exchanges take place with the characters right next to each other, and the input lag (which has gotten a bit better lately).

I'd like to talk about the aversion to execution barriers that many people in this thread seem to have, and the notion that skill should only exist as mind games and not on a technical level. I call bullshit. The biggest part of fighting games are about outsmarting your opponent, true, but execution plays an important role too. Take for example a move that is -4 on block. Without an input buffer the risk of throwing this move out is not that great since punishing it requires 1 frame timing, and unless someone is looking for it punishing it on reaction is hard. With an input buffer punishing this suddenly becomes super easy, essentially making every move that is -3 or -4 on block an automatic punish. It removes depth from the game.

The same goes for difficult combos. I see nothing wrong with a player having to choose between the easier option that gives less damage/positioning, or the harder one that could close out the round but if missed leads to a massive punish. It teaches players to know when to take risks, and to know when to step back and choose the safer option. If you whiff a DP in front of me I can choose to do the hard 1f-link FADC combo to put you in the corner, giving me a bigger chance to end the round. I can also go for a damaging, easy combo since I don't want to risk getting punished or failing and barely hitting you for any damage at all. Calculated risks on more levels is not a bad thing. Once again making links and combos easy removes the depth of having to choose.

Most characters in games that have harder execution doesn't require harder execution combos. It's there for those that put in the extra time and effort to learn it. If you want to be a boxer you need to hit the gym, if you want to be good at online shooters you need to practice your aiming. If you want to be the good at fighting games you need to hit training mode and learn the technicalities.

 

[ColonialHawk]

There is no execution, that's the whole point. It's an unnecessary arbitrary barrier with no intrinsic value. I like it too, but it has no actual value, it is hard for the sake of being hard without actually equating to a real skill. It's fictitious in nature and brings nothing to the game.

Don't you understand how that might drive newcomers away? Oo it's clutter, by definition.

Why the italics, btw?

Theres a reason they made the hadoken a special move and not just 1 button. Its a powerful move that changes the way the game is played.

Its not an arbitrary barrier. Its just another barrier. Smash has the simplest controls of any fighting game, but yet all the high level players have godlike execution. Execution will never leave fighting games, cause fighting games are all about improving yourself and trying to be better than the next opponent you face. Fighting games are competitive games. And maybe lowering execution will get more people to put their foot through the door, but will they stay? I personally don't think so. Cause someone is always gonna be better than they are, and they'll lose to them. And unless they have the desire to improve themselves and to be better than the person that just beat them, they'll just drop the game for the next big title.

I find satisfaction in execution and being able to do hadokens and shoryukens cause I put the time and effort into learning how. I find joy in finally nailing that difficult combo that I put work into. So no I don't see how execution would drive away newcomers, cause I was once a newcomer myself.

 

[GuileBootCamp]

Listen to Omni for I am great :/

- launch a FTP version with just Ryu/Chun w 2 stages
- Re-launch once the roster hits 30 fighters and Arcade mode
- Make survival mode good
- Guest characters from other franchises that fit SF
- World Tour/Quest mode equivalent
- Mini-games like smashing cars/bricks and dodging barrels
- bring back character round interactions ex. Shoto fist bump

Watch the players flock back in...

Listen to Omni Cap..

This would do a lot more for casuals than an arcade mode would. An arcade mode is going to go one of a few ways, I think, listed from most to least likely:

1. Very barebones in terms of story content, with an 8-12 match ladder and either text-based endings or no endings at all.

This would piss off casuals because it would feel completely insubstantial in terms of having actual motivation to play.​

2. Reworking the Character Story mode into Arcade Mode, with the scenes and fights set at appropriate parts during the ladder.

This would piss off casuals and the existing fanbase by potentially creating a larger barrier to fight money, "It only took 3 rounds to get my fight money before this!" but would make the character story mode feel more like a mode with actual gameplay.​

3. An arcade mode with new scenes for the openings and endings, similar to the SF4 games.

This is the best case scenario, but I question if Capcom is willing to put the budget needed into it, even if it used illustrations similar to the character stories.​

World Tour mode would get around all of that, though, by offering an RPG-lite mode that would feel less finite and more substantial than an arcade mode. Also, there could be an online mode that lets players use their World Tour characters, and since the game is using 3D models, there would be more potential to customize characters both gameplay-wise and visually.

Soul Calibur has always been popular with casuals, and I think the Edge Master modes are a big part of that, and those are more or less the same concept as World Tour.

 

[mbpm1]

People who get stuck at execution barriers would get stuck at any other barrier that exists in the game. Execution is just one of many difficulties by which the game forces you to learn and practice.

It's also not the reason SFV failed.

 

[jasminlovesyoux]

The fighting game scene has changed so dramatically over the 20+ years that I've been playing these games. At this point in time the two largest successful franchises are Mortal Kombat and Smash Bros. There are two factors and reasons for this.

One, they have been around for so long that they have a history of fan build up. Fans that love the characters, fans that love the gameplay, fans that love the style. Either smashs chaotic nature mixed with Nintendo charm or mortal kombats violence and brutal imagery. The people playing these games still play em, and new people get onto them because fighting games are still social enough to spread to others. People who are at a friend's house or dorm and get roped into a match may end up becoming a fan themselves. Popularity breeds popularity. Now in regards to Street Fighter V, they have this! They have the fans, they have the game play people like. This point is in Street fighters favor.

But here's point number two, that smash and Mk have that SF doesn't. Modes on modes on modes with levels of polish and care only seen from top tier developers. Smash and Mk have this in spades. You can play these games however the hell you want in anyway you can dream of. This is why they have mass appeal. You a casual? Doesn't matter because you have loads of game to try out. You hard core? Online has you covered. Challenges await. You can see the level of detail and polish even in the menus on the latest smash and mk. These games look phenomenal. They look like a lot of care went into them. There's so much to see and do, and they certainly captivate players of all kinds. Sfv however...... Bare minimum. Even the graphics are lazy. I'm not saying capcom needs to fix the hair clipping through polygons to suddenly be successful, but holy shit spruce the game up!!! Yes the budget wasn't the biggest but it really shows. Theres nothing to really see or do in sfv. It seemed to only be made with hardcore competitive fighting in mind. There's nothing it offers for anyone else. Oh and that half assed story mode? Such a waste of development time. Seriously one of the worst things I've ever played though in SF history. Even as a competitive gamer, the online mode was atrocious. Long load times and waiting killed the fun for me personally. Sfv lacks any love and care franchises like smash and mortal Kombat got.

I completely agree sfv needs a reboot. I don't think capcom has it in them to do it right. They really need to add so much to the game I don't think they're willing to do it. In regards to just the general question "what makes a fighting game popular" , in today's gaming world I don't feel it's a genre that has grown. It's why rising thunder turned out to be nothing. Nobody cares about it because it's not a historic franchise. Nobody gave a shit about it's charterers or world. I don't think we'll ever see a fighting game get as popular as smash or mortal Kombat until the genre reinvents itself. It's been so stagnant that nothing will change for now. I don't think anyone can foresee what the next big fighting game revolution will be, because nobodies done it yet. And it's definitely not about simplified controls. Ease of use is definitely a thing casuals can appreciate, but one button specials isn't the answer. We truly don't know what the real answer is yet. Hell maybe loot boxes have something to do with it. Jk

Spoiler

not really

Spoiler

yes really

 

[Kuksune]

Go F2P or start working on SF6.

 

[Skilletor]

People who get stuck at execution barriers would get stuck at any other barrier that exists in the game. Execution is just one of many difficulties by which the game forces you to learn and practice.

It's also not the reason SFV failed.

It's the type of thing that you keep chipping away at, people will continue to make more excuses, until we're left with divekick and the people who bitched in the first place would leave. It doesn't bring in more players and hurts the players that would actually stick around.

I have no problem with somebody saying a new game should be built around the shitty ideas lobbied in this thread. I just wouldn't play that game. It's super annoying when people want to turn franchises that have been around for decades into their shitty experiments.

 

[sajj316]

I would consider myself a casual SF player. I'm not competitive. I did not buy the game because I felt it was too bare bones for casual SF players who just want to play a fighting game locally with friends or even private matches with my bro who's 200 miles away.

I do not need 1 button that does a ridiculous combo. I spent a lot of time in SF IV combo training trying to do those combos and get the timing down. I guess the point I'm trying to make is tons of options for local play that improves replay-ability. Mini games, more costumes and ways to get them outside of paying for it, challenge modes, etc.

 

[David___]

It's the type of thing that you keep chipping away at, people will continue to make more excuses, until we're left with divekick and the people who bitched in the first place would leave. It doesn't bring in more players and hurts the players that would actually stick around.

Agreed. I mean, with the way some people talk, DIvekick should be the most successful fighting game ever. No execution barriers, no combos to learn, literally only two buttons to press. Sounds like some people's dream fighting game if we were going by the same arguments thats being made.

I have no problem with somebody saying a new game should be built around the shitty ideas lobbied in this thread. I just wouldn't play that game. It's super annoying when people want to turn franchises that have been around for decades into their shitty experiments.

Pretty much how I feel and why I'm most likely just getting UMVC3 on PC and skipping MVC:I. From what I heard with it being 2v2 and no assests I'll gladly pass.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

I don't like Survival but why it should be removed? I think it needs some rework and not even that much honestly.

Why remove Halloween stage?

No lootboxes please. I don't want that garbage in any game.

Survival mode doesn't seem salvageable, might as well replace that mode. The Halloween stage just sucks.

Awful. Absolutely not. The game has enough issues without implementing a gambling model, FM or real.

And Capcom will get money to update the game with content how, exactly?

The Overwatch carrot on a stick model can work for SF. As far as Capcom losing that revenue from dlc, the game itself would sell more. Maybe do a thing like they did with the CPT dlc a few times a year, have a theme and a few exclusive skins and a stage.

 

[GuileBootCamp]

I would consider myself a casual SF player. I'm not competitive. I did not buy the game because I felt it was too bare bones for casual SF players who just want to play a fighting game locally with friends or even private matches with my bro who's 200 miles away.

The game is in a very good state now if these are all you want out of it.

 

[Balb]

Well they have to do something, because a company like Riot Games who actually knows how to attract a lot of players and run an eSports league will eventually swoop in and take a large portion of Capcom'a market with a fighting game of their own.

 

[Skilletor]

Well they have to do something, because a company like Riot Games who actually knows how to attract a lot of players and run an eSports league will eventually swoop in and take a large portion of Capcom'a market with a fighting game of their own.

SF players don't play SF because it's the only thing to play. They play it because they like playing SF.

 

[myco666]

Survival mode doesn't seem salvageable, might as well replace that mode. The Halloween stage just sucks.

I have couple of ideas.

- Cutdown the amount of stages. This is easy and already makes the mode much better since you don't have to spend 30-60minutes on it only to fail at the end.

- Add purchaseable continues. For like 200k points you could get one or maybe even higher. In normal and above difficulty you have so many points that you don't ever really need them.

And what I would want it to really be is 16 fights (through the whole starting cast) for each difficulty and the difficulty selection would just make the AI better. This cuts down the bullshit that is the AI that doesn't do anything for bunch of stages. Going through these over and over again because the actual hard part is at the end (30+ minutes on hard and extreme) is pretty much why I hate it. If it was much shorter it would be fine because you don't feel like you wasted ton of your time only to lose at the end.

 

[J 0 E]

Is a decent Arcade mode that hard to add, Capcom?

 

[groansey]

Regardless of what people's opinions are regarding executing mechanics, the one thing it clearly, glaringly needs is a decent singleplayer component.

Before they repackage the game they need to:

• Overhaul or scrap Survival entirely
• Never mention Story mode again. Pretend it didn't happen.
• Add a singleplayer story component against a Tutor character! Seems obvious. Ideally you'd have a training mode tailored for each character to teach players their strengths / weaknesses. The training goes all the way through combos and advanced techniques.
• Explain the technical frame stuff in game. I shouldn't have to Youtube gooteks videos to learn how the game works. The poster earlier talking about a 4 frames maneouvre leaving you exposed for 1 frame or something. I don't want to learn that. I'm sorry the core SF audience feel protective over that sort of technical gameplay but they have their way - this is what SF is. It isn't a game you can pick up and win by strategising or quick aggressive button-bashing, you need to learn and grind, and that isn't something every game asks of you. Comparisons to fps and racing games are disingenuous. Online fps games have a far more accessible and rewarding gameplay loop for failure. SF needs to teach it's casual players if they're ever going to improve.
• A decent, bread-and-butter Arcade mode with bosses that players can grind to unlock aesthetic items or FM for characters of stages.

If they do that they could be sorted.

Oh yeah and sort the clipping and dithered shadows.