Support NeoGAF

[Salty Hippo]

Gears without Epic, blacktusk takeover, first ever project 80+ meta score Gears4. Killer instinct without Double Helix, iron galaxy take over, maintain quality.
Who say MS can't find a new studio or even build another factory if Scalebound become a hit?

Black Tusk was built from the ground up for years to be one of their crown jewel studios. They can't afford to do the same every time a second-party bails.

Iron Galaxy took over a game that was basically done and just kept updating it. They didn't create a sequel from the ground up, they are still unproven in this department.

I'm not saying they can't find good studios, but it's always a roll of the dice. In the case of Scalebound, there's really no other studio that does that kind of gameplay other than Platinum. MAYBE Ninja Theory.

But no one needs to worry about that, Scalebound will no doubt flop and never be seen again.

 

[Mass Effect]

I'm the same way but there are examples of this from all three major companies. I will say though that MS sides more with shorter turnarounds between reveal and release out of the major three companies but not to the point in which it's night/day.

Nah, I think that goes to Nintendo. Zelda seems to be the exception (which I know everyone is going to be quick to try to point out if I didn't mention it). MS isn't as bad as they used to be a few years ago though.

Sony... well, they're swinging for the fences on this aspect. Hope it doesn't backfire on them.

It's a matter of opinion, but I don't share this view. There is no problem with second party development at all, but my personal belief is that studio is more important than IP. There's no need to own the studio, but I care more about the talent making a game than the intellectual property itself.

Well sure you need the talent to make a quality game, but I think what he's saying is that talent isn't beholden to a single studio. Look at the Coalition; they were able to make a very competent Gears game despite it being new to them. Granted, they still needed a few Gears veteran developers to help, but it was still mostly people who never worked on a Gears game.

Same with Retro on both Metroid and Donkey Kong, with them adding arguably the best games to the franchises despite not being the original developers.

Killer Instinct is another example.

And we'll see the same with Uncharted as Naughty Dog moves away from the franchise. We'll probably see it with Fable as well.

Two things, studio can be important "IP" too, like Retro or ND.
Secondly, internal studio need to keep making games to justify it existence, therefore steady flow of content is a sure thing.
Without worry about running a studio, publisher can pull the plug at any point, like late 360 era.

Interesting you brought up both Retro and Naughty Dog -- two studios who haven't been stuck to one IP under their respective ownerships. While you are right, the "right" studio can make or break an IP, I think ultimately, the IP is more important than the studio, as explained above.

Insomniac owns the Sunset Overdrive IP, thats the reason they went with MS as they wanted to retain ownership of the IP and MS were the only Publisher who were down for that kind of deal. A commendable agreement from both parties, wouldnt you say?

Sure, but it, along with Ryse, are the reasons we won't be seeing any more of that from MS. Like Sony, they want to own the IPs of the games they publish now.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

Drafting Spirit actually hits the mark for me personally in regards to his post about Killzone and GG.

For me personally, Sony's exclusives always appeal to me more for two reasons. The first being that their exclusives are either 100% or much more focused on the single player aspect which is what I am - a single player off-line gamer. Second reason being that the genres the exclusives are in are usually in my top three.

Microsoft on the other hand tends to focus more on competitive online multi-player/coop based games. As great as Gears of War 4 is (my current 2016 goty), it's more meant to be played online. I have no interest in the Halo franchise in general but that's also another franchise that's geared more towards online gaming.

That's the main difference for me personally.

 

[Coxy100]

Damn that's a small list. Wish Lionhead still existed. 3 generations microsoft have been in and they don't have more studios?

 

[Withnail]

You don't normally show concept/prototype-stage projects at E3.

But they also showed HoloLens at E3 as if it was a consumer product due in the foreseeable future.

That was just a not-so-subtle attempt to overshadow Sony's PSVR unveiling at the same E3.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

I'll use Guerrilla Games and Sony as an example.

I do not like first person shooters (Battlefield being the sole exception to the rule). I have never played a Killzone game and I will probably never play a Killzone game. According to Wikipedia, GG has been working on Killzone since 2004 when they created it on PS2 up to Killzone Shadowfall in 2013. That is nearly a decade of Killzone. Needless to say, GG has been a completely irrelevant first party studio for me.

With the introduction of Horizon: Zero Dawn, they have made a game that has skyrocketed to the very top of my most anticipated games. Sony saw the stagnation and dullness around the studio and decided to change things up and get risky.

Now, imagine if Sony had decided to cancel Horizon around 2014 when there was just leaked concept art for the game and decided to double down on GG being a Killzone factory. I would have been extremely disappointed. This new venture with Horizon provides an opportunity for them to freshen up the studio and even possibly rework Killzone (I think Guerrilla Cambridge is being given all the time in the world to revamp Killzone).

That is what I want from first party studios. And this is in conjunction with other good third party partnerships. It shouldn't solely be third party partnerships. Some of you keep looking at this from a business perspective and while I get that side of the equation (I have spoke on it myself in defense of MS), look at it from a consumer/console enthusiast perspective and understand why some of us are critical of MS' current first party situation.

Yeah but Killzone was never a game with the same stature as Gears or Halo, they could afford to drop it and try something else, if I look at the games that MS have produced this gen along with what they have for this year and beyond Im more than happy.

Would I prefer them to have 20 First Party studios, probably yeah but if they can continue with the diverse selection of games and genres moving forward is it really that big a deal?

 

[Deleted member 471617]

Playgrounds first game was Forza Horizon funded by Microsoft, the studios flourished because of it. But with Microsoft holding ownership to the Forza Horizon ip, the funding of their studio. It's more than likely that Microsoft owns the ip and is funding this new project, due to the fact they have so much control over the success or failure of the studio.

Checking their games history, I see it's all Forza Horizon. Microsoft should just purchase them outright. With having two studios, they can keep the primary team working on the Forza Horizon franchise and have the secondary team work on new IP's.

I just repurchased an Xbox One Slim two weeks ago because of Forza Horizon 3's Blizzard Mountain expansion. It got me hyped. Now, just waiting for the game and expansion to hit my price point since im buying them digitally. May take a while but I have a backlog, games right around the corner but knowing I have the console again and ready for when that price point hits makes me happy.

Must say that more than any other exclusive or game in general, Forza Horizon 3 from Playground games really impressed the shit out of me and im not even a racing genre fan. LOL.

Microsoft should definitely own them outright and not take any chances as PlayGround games is definitely a good studio for the Forza Horizon franchise and could be even better if their new IP turns out good and successful.

 

[Primethius]

I disagree with the 1st party route in situations like that being preferable to 2nd party variables. I can kinda see how that makes sense if you're closely aligned to a specific ecosystem, but as a fan of the studio itself, I don't think it's a better scenario in most cases.

If you're a fan of Insomniac, then after Sunset Overdrive bombs, you should be somewhat relieved that they can go back to making a new Ratchet, and then a new Spider-Man. Evolution was a lucky break with Codemasters stepping in to pick them up, otherwise if you were a fan of their games, then there would be no "what they do next" to look forward to. And as I've been saying before, the studio itself is only a name/brand... if a game bombs and the studio lacks the flexibility to for example move to somewhere that their product has a better chance of survival, then you're probably looking at a pretty different studio over time anyway (hi Rare).

Like... imagine if Sega had actually owned Platinum... lol

I think, for me, even not being tied to an ecosystem, the first party route is more preferable because you tend to have more leeway both with sales and chances as a first party then you do with a third party publisher, generally speaking.

When SO bombed, I wasn't relieved that Insomniac went to work on Rachet and Spidey. I was relieved when I found out that Insomniac was offered that work at all because not every studio gets those sorts of deals when they aren't making games that are commercially successful.

Your example of Evolution I think works pretty well here. They never really had a game that sold particularly well or was much of a success but they were continuously given the opportunity to develop new titles. That's a degree of freedom and leeway you don't get at third party publishers due to their focus on profitability and sales. I'm glad Codemasters came in and picked them up but that's generally not what happens.

While you've noted the mistake with IP ownership, I still agree with the overall gist of your post.

It is fine to work with third party to get these deals but it isn't something you completely rely on for IP diversity. The foundation of it all is too shaky and unreliable to do so. Something like Sunset Overdrive is one and done. Insomniac has moved on to bigger and better things and there is nothing MS can do about it.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean MS even wants to continue with Sunset Overdrive (they more than likely don't) but it is just the point of being in a situation like that regardless.

Have your own studios working to build a foundation of diversity and allow third party partnerships to aid that work. Not the other way around.

Yep, MS has a lot of one and done's this gen due to the reliance on second party. I've said this before but it reminds me a lot of the OG Xbox gen in that regard. Lots of IPs that probably won't be seen again.

 

[Salty Hippo]

Well, to be fair...

A) That kinda happened with Killer Instinct, and Iron Galaxy slotted in quite comfortably.
B) This basically happened to Devil May Cry, despite being internal.

I agree with what you're saying about making sure you maintain good relations with those that make your most valuable products... but I think that works similarly with 2nd party as it does 1st party. You can't force the individual people working on these games to continue working on them if they don't want to regardless of if you own the studio. The studio is nothing but a name/brand (see current day Infinity Ward), 343i could just as easily be named Bungie today, and very little would change. Activision would probably still have the real Bungie, just as EA has the real Infinity Ward.

If your 2nd party team is happy, then they're pretty much as good as a 1st party anyway. Bizarre Creations were kinda like this for MS up to PGR3 (and Playground Games are similar today), Insomniac are like that for Sony also, with the only real reason for Sunset Overdrive being an Xbox game being that Insomniac wanted their own IP for once (not too dissimilar to Bungie with MS). I honestly think we tend to draw far too strong a line here between the differing ways a publisher gets a game published.

You're ignoring the very simple fact that with a second party, whatever they decide to work on next could be highjacked at any time by the competition. They will basically sell their fish to the highest bidder. Good relations won't stop that. But if you own the team and give them creative freedom, they'll still work on whatever they want and that game will be yours.

It's really a question of short-term vs. long-term vision/commitment. Microsoft has the former, Sony has the latter. And the latter is no doubt what's best for gamers. And that's part of the reason why they have such a huge lead. And I hope it continues to get bigger because that's what both companies deserve.

 

[Synth]

Iron Galaxy took over a game that was basically done and just kept updating it. They didn't create a sequel from the ground up, they are still unproven in this department.

I think you're underselling what Iron Galaxy has brought to KI2013 over the course of their two seasons. That, or you're overestimating how much fighting games tend to evolve between iterations. If KI2013 under Double Helix was Street Fighter, then under Iron Galaxy it's basically become Darkstalkers. In both cases, they've kept what core to KI intact, but pretty much the only thing separating the changes in KI from the changes that would be expected of a sequel (as opposed to a new season), is that it's still running with the same graphics... and even then tons of fighting game sequels (King of Fighters, Blazblue, etc) have changed appearance notably less than KI2013 has since launch.

You're ignoring the very simple fact that with a second party, whatever they decide to work on next could be highjacked at any time by the competition. They will basically sell their fish to the highest bidder. Good relations won't stop that. But if you own the team and give them creative freedom, they'll still work on whatever they want and that game will be yours.

It's really a question of short-term vs. long-term vision/commitment. Microsoft has the former, Sony has the latter. And the latter is no doubt what's best for gamers. And that's part of the reason why they have such a huge lead. And I hope it continues to get bigger because that's what both companies deserve.

That's not true though. They can only sell to the highest bidder, if they own the IP instead of you. Insomniac couldn't come to MS to shop Ratchet and Clank, but Activision would be able to with Crash if they wanted.

Owning the studios doesn't mean you own the people working there. If those people have the clout to survive leaving you with the IP, then they can shop themselves to the highest bidder regardless. In that case, you just need to continue being the highest bidder.

 

[JlNX]

Checking their games history, I see it's all Forza Horizon. Microsoft should just purchase them outright. With having two studios, they can keep the primary team working on the Forza Horizon franchise and have the secondary team work on new IP's.

I just repurchased an Xbox One Slim two weeks ago because of Forza Horizon 3's Blizzard Mountain expansion. It got me hyped. Now, just waiting for the game and expansion to hit my price point since im buying them digitally. May take a while but I have a backlog, games right around the corner but knowing I have the console again and ready for when that price point hits makes me happy.

Must say that more than any other exclusive or game in general, Forza Horizon 3 from Playground games really impressed the shit out of me and im not even a racing genre fan. LOL.

Microsoft should definitely own them outright and not take any chances as PlayGround games is definitely a good studio for the Forza Horizon franchise and could be even better if their new IP turns out good and successful.

Playground have said they don't want to be owned in a ign interview.

 

[Zedox]

I have no problem with MS having 2nd party games (KI is probably my most played game this gen so far). All I care about are new IPs being created and being good, and hopefully good enough for a sequel. 1st party studios, 2nd party studios...I don't really care (personally, obviously), as long as good games are produced and they keep making good games. 343i can work on halo for all eternity, I don't care. Are other new games being created is all I care about. Who makes it, doesn't matter, is it good is what matters.

Yea, MS doesn't have a lot of studios, they downsized, and choose to work with partners...that's not unlike anything Microsoft as a company. I still believe that we'll get good games and surprises for this year and next at this years E3/gamescom. Just because we don't know who they are working with and all the games that they are working on doesn't mean that they aren't working on more games internally or externally. It's all assumptions (I know that's what part of this thread is about).

It's obvious that MS doesn't want to repeat E3 2014 with showing games too early. It's obvious that MS doesn't want to own a bunch of studios. It's also obvious that they want to own IP but they are taking a measured approach to it. They have the Gears/Halo/Forza IPs locked. They need newer IPs to become mainstays and that's what I believe they are striving for but by doing it through 2nd parties. Does it give confidence to have more 1st party studios? Yes, but as we saw, those can be shut down no matter how far into development a game can be.

MS just need to revive more old IPs (which they kinda started) and bring in a couple fresh new IPs (which is seems they are doing). The number doesn't have to be great, but the impact does.

 

[sense]

Yeah but Killzone was never a game with the same stature as Gears or Halo, they could afford to drop it and try something else, if I look at the games that MS have produced this gen along with what they have for this year and beyond Im more than happy.

Would I prefer them to have 20 First Party studios, probably yeah but if they can continue with the diverse selection of games and genres moving forward is it really that big a deal?

So you are not at all bothered with the declining interest and sales in halo and gears? They should keep trying to please the most hardcore fans of these games like yourself and running them into the ground and not try to attract new fans? I honestly feel like even games like quantum break or sunset drive did not have a budget or backing anywhere close to halo or gears. I look at sea of thieves and see it as a test to see if it will be a surprise hit rather then trying to hit it out of the park on the first try. I need to see what they do with state of decay because that is a good opportunity for them to invest in the game and make sure it is like uncharted to uncharted 2. Add a solid single player campaign with a decent story alongside expanding on the multiplayer.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

Playground have said they don't want to be owned in a ign interview.

That sucks. Can definitely see Microsoft losing them in general at some point.

 

[wapplew]

That sucks. Can definitely see Microsoft losing them in general at some point.

I can see EA hire them to make NFS at some point.

 

[twobear]

That sucks. Can definitely see Microsoft losing them in general at some point.

I kind of doubt it. Presumably as long as the Horizon series keeps posting profits they'll just keep hiring them to make the next game in the series as soon as the last game is out. That way if some other publisher approaches them they'll be in the middle of a project and therefore unlikely to abandon it.

 

[JlNX]

That sucks. Can definitely see Microsoft losing them in general at some point.

I don't see it happening it would be to much of a risk for them, especially given the reason the studio was formed. Giving up such a successful guaranteed money pipeline in Forza would be a mistake. That also doesn't take into account the sort control Microsoft have over the success of that studio because ip ownership and second party contracts. Also they have a very good relationship similar to that between quantic and Sony. A second party studio under first party ransom.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

So you are not at all bothered with the declining interest and sales in halo and gears? They should keep trying to please the most hardcore fans of these games like yourself and running them into the ground and not try to attract new fans? I honestly feel like even games like quantum break or sunset drive did not have a budget or backing anywhere close to halo or gears. I look at sea of thieves and see it as a test to see if it will be a surprise hit rather then trying to hit it out of the park on the first try. I need to see what they do with state of decay because that is a good opportunity for them to invest in the game and make sure it is like uncharted to uncharted 2. Add a solid single player campaign with a decent story alongside expanding on the multiplayer.

I have loved my time with Halo 5 and I put an ungodly number of hours into Gears co op and Horde so if they keep making good entries in the series then I have no issue with that being a focus for MS and for mainline titles we are looking at 3 years dev time.

Halo and Gears are the reason I went Xbox rather than PlayStation after all.

The MS published titles this year are really strong and diverse. For me as a gamer, Im happy with the games I have played and I'm looking forward to lots more over the coming years.

 

[Dynasty]

That sucks. Can definitely see Microsoft losing them in general at some point.

Doesnt suck. If they were bought by MS there would be a strong chance of them being a Forza Horizon only developer, instead now they are in a good enough posistion to keep making FH games and start building a second team. Also I think Playground will stick with making FH games for MS for a while because that is a constant source of income. The game industry can be extremely unpredictable but having guaranteed work gives the developers in Playground a peace of mind that a lot of other developers dont.

 

[Synth]

I think, for me, even not being tied to an ecosystem, the first party route is more preferable because you tend to have more leeway both with sales and chances as a first party then you do with a third party publisher, generally speaking.

When SO bombed, I wasn't relieved that Insomniac went to work on Rachet and Spidey. I was relieved when I found out that Insomniac was offered that work at all because not every studio gets those sorts of deals when they aren't making games that are commercially successful.

Your example of Evolution I think works pretty well here. They never really had a game that sold particularly well or was much of a success but they were continuously given the opportunity to develop new titles. That's a degree of freedom and leeway you don't get at third party publishers due to their focus on profitability and sales. I'm glad Codemasters came in and picked them up but that's generally not what happens.

Sorry, I skipped over your post before, because I didn't notice it when replying to Salty Hippo.

Yea, I'll agree that as a 1st party developer, the bar for "acceptable" in terms of sales is lower than it is for a 3rd party publisher... however I'd argue that applies to both 1st and 2nd party projects. It's definitely less likely if the 3rd party studio owns the IP (so yea, Sunset Overdrive), but otherwise I think a Forza Horizon or Ori gets as much chance to grow as an Uncharted or Driveclub. If the IP shows potential for growth, and doesn't leave a black hole in budget, then it has a good chance at seeing a sequel.

Sure, not every studio continues to get work when their games aren't successful.. but then, not all get to stay alive either. Plus it's not like a single underperforming game like Sunset Overdrive was going to prevent Insomniac from getting work. They survived Fuse... they would have been far more likely to be killed if they were MS owned, as much like Rare has suffered from, it's hard to turn your fortunes around if the people that would have bought your game are primarily somewhere you can't publish them.

Having mobility can help a lot, which is why I brought up Platinum who would have basically been doomed under the ownership of pretty much anyone (and they basically were as Clover). Evolution was doing fine for themselves up to Motostorm Pacific Rift really... no worse than pretty much any other racing studio not tied to GT, Need for Speed or Mario Kart. The WRC games are did well enough, and the original MotorStorm did great for a launch racer... which is why it got sequels, like pretty much any other IP would. It was when Apocalypse bombed heavily that the IP was done for, and when Driveclub launched under disastrous circumstances (after already being a year late) that did them in. This isn't really unique when compared with how pretty much any publisher would handle IP and/or studios. It's not like Mirror's Edge Catalyst immediately gets everyone that worked on it fired.

 

[Hoo-doo]

And why couldn't Sony have just funded a new first or second party studio to make a new ip you were equally excited about. Your not going to like what every studio makes that the reality of life, were not in a fake video game world. Also comparing a studio that in over ten years has only released one good game to Halo is not a good comparison. Very different fanbases.

Because building a new team from scratch is a massive effort when you have a perfectly running and experienced veteran development team thirsty for something new to work on and an IP you don't want to run into the ground.
Games are not made by just throwing a heap of developers together. It can take years for a team to get humming properly, so to speak.
Good developers are a cohesive team with a known skillset and lots of experience working together. A team that's become very familiar with eachother with one franchise can produce amazing games if they get to diversify their output towards other franchises.

See Naughty Dog with The Last of Us. The pipelines for production were already in place and honed to perfection. That means they got to spend every moment on designing and creating a game that surpassed all expectations. It's a team effort.

 

[Freiya]

Phantom Dust needs love.

This really the only thing Microsoft can do to win me back. They can't even keep their word in my book.

 

[JlNX]

So you are not at all bothered with the declining interest and sales in halo and gears? They should keep trying to please the most hardcore fans of these games like yourself and running them into the ground and not try to attract new fans? I honestly feel like even games like quantum break or sunset drive did not have a budget or backing anywhere close to halo or gears. I look at sea of thieves and see it as a test to see if it will be a surprise hit rather then trying to hit it out of the park on the first try. I need to see what they do with state of decay because that is a good opportunity for them to invest in the game and make sure it is like uncharted to uncharted 2. Add a solid single player campaign with a decent story alongside expanding on the multiplayer.

What would sales have to do with my enjoyment of a game that seems like a fanboy statement. This sort of hyperbolic rubbish and bias about Microsoft ip's is pathetic. Running them into the ground? How is gears 4 "running into the ground" or Halo 5 yeh the campaign was not the best in the series, but Gafs hyperbolic opinion of it is ridiculous. It's still the best multiplayer and forge in the series which is quite the accomplishment. Quantum break and SSOS definitely did have a similar budget, with them being second party, Quantum Break taking 5 years, expensive actors and a open-world.

If you go to Rare's youtube your opinion would change on that matter, their going about it the same way blizzard did with overwatch's development to release cycle. If you listen to the podcast the amount of time and level of quality going into that game is something I only expect of Nintendo, every time they add something to the game 15000 QA checks are done and the gameplay is tested to make sure it fits into the game for every addition. Each island is made by hand, everything is placed with a purpose and made sure to look right from every direction at every distance.

State of Decay 2 is a proper triple AAA sequel, they have stated that SOD 1 proved itself as a small game and this is it's big triple AAA UE4 sequel. The game undead labs have wanted to make since day one.

 

[Hoo-doo]

What would sales have to do with my enjoyment of a game that seems like a fanboy statement. This sort of hyperbolic rubbish and bias about Microsoft ip's is pathetic. Running them into the ground? How is gears 4 "running into the ground" or Halo 5 yeh the campaign was not the best in the series, but Gafs hyperbolic opinion of it is ridiculous. It's still the best multiplayer and forge in the series which is quite the accomplishment. Quantum break and SSOS definitely did have a similar budget, with them being second party, Quantum Break taking 5 years, expensive actors and a open-world.

If you go to Rare's youtube your opinion would change on that matter, their going about it the same way blizzard did with overwatch's development to release cycle. If you listen to the podcast the amount of time and level of quality going into that game is something I only expect of Nintendo, every time they add something to the game 15000 QA checks are done and the gameplay is tested to make sure it fits into the game for every addition. Each island is made by hand, everything is placed with a purpose and made sure to look right from every direction at every distance.

State of Decay 2 is a proper triple AAA sequel, they have stated that SOD 1 proved itself as a small game and this is it's big triple AAA UE4 sequel. The game undead labs have wanted to make since day one.

You realize we are talking about the actual business end of things, right?

Gears 4 debuted at lower numbers than Gears: Judgment and probably cost a shitload more money to produce. Same with Halo 5 which was the lowest selling mainline Halo since Combat Evolved. Quantum Break probably never even became profitable.
These franchises are NOT showing growth, which is a problem for Microsoft. Nobody is saying they aren't good games. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Asking 343i to work on a new IP is like asking The Pokémon Company do the same. After all these years I don't get how people don't understand that. They will never do anything other than Halo since that's literally why they exist. They're MS's permanent Halo team, and this includes not just internally developed games, but publishing and overseeing external games, licensing/branding, and all non-game media (such as movies, TV shows, web shows, books, comics, everything). You get a job at 343i to work on Halo because that's the entire purpose of the studio, they're not some random studio that got "stuck". Hell, they're even named after a prominent Halo character.

As for The Coalition, while they weren't founded with the express purpose of being the stewards of the Gears franchise like 343i was for Halo, they did elect to become just that. While it may seem obvious folks would want to work on New and Exciting™ IPs, these are jobs we're talking about. Being a factory for a major 1st party IP means a hell of a lot of job security, more than your typical studio. Being the Gears team means that they're much less likely to get downsized, sold off, or shut down, which means everyone feels safer in their position. A new IP could be canceled at any moment - Gears 5 is guaranteed to be released.

If I'm not mistaken the dev team that makes Pokemon has made many new ip over the years. Some even going multiplatform.

 

[OldRoutes]

You realize we are talking about the actual business end of things, right?

Gears 4 debuted at lower numbers than Gears: Judgment and probably cost a shitload more money to produce. Same with Halo 5 which was the lowest selling mainline Halo since Combat Evolved. Quantum Break probably never even became profitable.
These franchises are NOT showing growth, which is a problem for Microsoft. Nobody is saying they aren't good games. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

Microsoft hasn't released numbers for Halo 5 or Gears of Wars 4. Let's focus on facts instead of ******** unreliable statistics, please.

Edit : See? I can't even use that website on here. It's unreliable.

 

[JlNX]

Because building a new team from scratch is a massive effort when you have a perfectly running and experienced veteran development team thirsty for something new to work on and an IP you don't want to run into the ground.
Games are not made by just throwing a heap of developers together. It can take years for a team to get humming properly, so to speak.
Good developers are a cohesive team with a known skill set and lots of experience working together. A team that's become very familiar with each other with one franchise can produce amazing games if they get to diversify their output towards other franchises.

See Naughty Dog with The Last of Us. The pipelines for production were already in place and honed to perfection. That means they got to spend every moment on designing and creating a game that surpassed all expectations. It's a team effort.

Your entire argument can be countered with "then why don't you fund a second party team?" Also if it wasn't already obvious enough I said first party because of DriftingSpirit heavy bias towards first party. I don't think building a first party team is smart, plus Guerilla is a veteran team in age nothing else.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Yeah, GameFreak develops the Pokémon games, and they make other stuff in between those fairly frequently...

But I still get your point

I said The Pokémon Company though, not GameFreak, so I'm not sure why you brought them up to begin with.

That is nice from MS' POV but it is obvious why that isn't appealing to some people like us. Indefinitely pumping out Halo and Gears may be good for their business but it isn't enticing me to jump into their ecosystem.

Yeah, there is obviously risk involved in making new IP but that is what I want from first party studios. That is the point in joining a big pub. You'll obviously have your key franchises that stand the test of time but it should also encourage creative and risky ideas.

You realize that even Nintendo effectively does the same thing with Zelda (and to an extent, Mario), right? They just don't call the massive Zelda team "Navi Industries" or anything. There's nothing wrong with a single IP factory and it's not like Microsoft can't have other, more open teams because of it. It's more just that they don't have a particular large amount of teams than anything, so they just have the couple factories, largely because MS heavily leverages external studios for other projects (ReCore, Quantum Break, Sunset Overdrive, etc). But Black Tusk could have been working on new IPs, they just elected to become The Coalition for the job security. And Rare is apparently transitioning to exclusively pumping out new IPs, starting with Sea of Thieves.

I know 343 won't do non Halo stuff but with 450 developers they should be doing more than just 1 mainline Halo every 3 years. I'm not saying they should go and make a new IP because that's not happening, but why not something else in the Halo franchise? Halo Kart? Halo MMO-lite like destiny?

1 mainline Halo game every 3 years from a dev team of 450 is a joke. Sledgehammer has 225 and they put out a CoD every 3 years, and that'll be including non devs too.

Or take like 150 of them, build a new studio for them and have them put out a new IP. That gives MS another studio and another new IP to add to their portfolio. Hell it wouldn't even cost that much more cause they're already paying their salary anyway.

This has been addressed several times, but even if you assume the 450 number is development staff and doesn't include folks in licensing/merchandising/branding and non-game media, not all of them are working solely on mainline Halo games. They're also assisting in/overseeing projects like the Spartan games and their many ports, Halo Wars 2, MCC/H2A, Halo Wars: DE, Forge, and whatever other side games and remakes/remasters they have planned for the future. So they are working on other games, just not the specific ones you suggested. Hell, we even know there was a Halo Megabloks game being worked on just a few years back.

That's sad though. Developers should be able to branch out creatively instead of having 450 devs working endlessly on cranking out sequels with ever diminishing returns for their effort.

It's on Microsoft to find a solution to this issue or risk 343 going bankrupt creatively (which in my opinion is already happening). And honestly, letting Halo breathe for two-three years while the devs get to work on something new and exciting will do the franchise good.

That's like saying it's sad that the cooks at "Bill's Burgers Only" only make burgers and should be allowed more freedom to make other food. You don't get a job at Bill's to begin with if your goal is to make anything other than burgers. You get a job at 343i to work on Halo, and if that's not what you want then you work elsewhere. That said, the "freedom" of new IPs isn't everything. Most developers would kill to have the job security at 1st party major IP factory provides.

The Pokémon Company does not develop games though, they're purely marketing and licensing.

They're also publishing, but yes, I'm aware it's not a perfect comparison, though it is still a functional one. Both were founded with the express purpose of managing a single IP, and 343i is also a publishing, marketing, merchandising, licensing, etc. arm.

 

[shinobi602]

List may be getting smaller soon.

 

[Hoo-doo]

List may be getting smaller soon.

What secrets do you hold?

NEWMAN!

 

[Nightengale]

List may be getting smaller soon.

SPILL THE BEANS SHINOBI!

/just kidding

 

[JlNX]

You realize we are talking about the actual business end of things, right?

Gears 4 debuted at lower numbers than Gears: Judgment and probably cost a shitload more money to produce. Same with Halo 5 which was the lowest selling mainline Halo since Combat Evolved. Quantum Break probably never even became profitable.
These franchises are NOT showing growth, which is a problem for Microsoft. Nobody is saying they aren't good games. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

Maybe you need to re-read sense's post and my reply because you completely missed the point, if your talking about business then you need to rethink your post in terms of digital trend, platforms, micro-transactions, heavily unreliable numbers, gears and halo games launched between mainline entries and a ton of other depth to see it from the publishers point of view.

 

[jayu26]

List may be getting smaller soon.

That's certainly one direction they could go with all this.

Damn... I'm thinking either Scalebound or Crackdown.

I don't think Shinobi has information on the Japanese side of things.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

List may be getting smaller soon.

Damn... I'm thinking either Scalebound or Crackdown.

MS hates pouring in money for a long period of time with no return.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Damn... I'm thinking either Scalebound or Crackdown.

Not a chance either of these are cancelled.

 

[LukasTaves]

Unfortunately that goes directly against MS's philosophy, which is what separates them from someone like Sony in terms of giving their developers space.

343 and Coalition were created specifically because MS tried to force Bungie and Epic to continue making the same franchise for them over and over again.

Epic and Bungie both got tired. MS's brilliant idea was to just create two studios instead and make them do it

Like I said before, bungie were a control freak of the Halo Ip, it even opposed other studios working on it, like Ensemble on Halo Wars.

They left because they wanted control and the money of the franchise, which now they have with Destiny.

Imo, Ms failing was not to give what they wanted, Halo could still be the juggernaut with Bungie, in the very least Destiny could be Halo spin off that could keep the mp crowd on board of xbone.

"Would you kindly"

Spoiler

jk

Well, the employees themselves said it was a no brainer to them to work on a big established franchise instead of having the pressure to create a big one from scratch.

And people from Epic wanted to work on it as well, Ms grabbed a lot of the Gears team.

 

[Vico]

List may be getting smaller soon.

We need cboat now.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

That's certainly one direction they could go with all this.

I don't think Shinobi has information on the Japanese side of things.

Hmmmm i can't see cuphead being cancelled and below is eventually multi plat so they can't even cancel that. What's left then?

 

[Chris1]

List may be getting smaller soon.

I know it's not.. But I think it's sad when I read this the first thing that popped into my head was "RIP Rare"

And yeah, I doubt it's Crackdown or Scalebound.

 

[jayu26]

Hmmmm i can't see cuphead being cancelled and below is eventually multi plat so they can't even cancel that. What's left then?

I think he means Playground is going multiplatform for their next game. And why wouldn't they?

 

[Nightengale]

Imo, Ms failing was not to give what they wanted, Halo could still be the juggernaut with Bungie, in the very least Destiny could be Halo spin off that could keep the mp crowd on board of xbone.

To be quite fair to MS, looking at some of the development troubles that Bungie is going through with Destiny even when it's the only project they're working on w/500 devs, part of me still thinks it's almost a miracle that Destiny is as successful as it is.

Imagine if Bungie were juggling Halo and Destiny together.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

I think he means Playground is going multiplatform for their next game. And why wouldn't they?

But list wouldn't get smaller? It's not like FH will just go away.

 

[shinobi602]

I think he means Playground is going multiplatform for their next game. And why wouldn't they?

Oh no my friend.

 

[EvB]

Well that completely contradicts what Phil said about it at E3 2013. He was claiming it would be the next Gears/Halo-level franchise.

Link?

 

[Hoo-doo]

Oh no my friend.

If you have something to say, say it. None of this teasing.

Well then.

Who is taking bets? My money is on Crackdown.

Actually, now that I think of it, it could be Crackdown. That game seems to have dropped off the map.

 

[jayu26]

But list wouldn't get smaller? It's not like FH will just go away.

Oh no my friend.

Well then.

Who is taking bets? My money is on Crackdown.

 

[Synth]

If you have something to say, say it. None of this teasing.

Hey, we agree on something.

 

[sense]

What would sales have to do with my enjoyment of a game that seems like a fanboy statement. This sort of hyperbolic rubbish and bias about Microsoft ip's is pathetic. Running them into the ground? How is gears 4 "running into the ground" or Halo 5 yeh the campaign was not the best in the series, but Gafs hyperbolic opinion of it is ridiculous. It's still the best multiplayer and forge in the series which is quite the accomplishment. Quantum break and SSOS definitely did have a similar budget, with them being second party, Quantum Break taking 5 years, expensive actors and a open-world.

If you go to Rare's youtube your opinion would change on that matter, their going about it the same way blizzard did with overwatch's development to release cycle. If you listen to the podcast the amount of time and level of quality going into that game is something I only expect of Nintendo, every time they add something to the game 15000 QA checks are done and the gameplay is tested to make sure it fits into the game for every addition. Each island is made by hand, everything is placed with a purpose and made sure to look right from every direction at every distance.

State of Decay 2 is a proper triple AAA sequel, they have stated that SOD 1 proved itself as a small game and this is it's big triple AAA UE4 sequel. The game undead labs have wanted to make since day one.

Maybe take the emotion out and discuss with an open mind? I am sure the games were great and I do not doubt you and many hardcore fans of these franchises really loved them. The point is they are on a downward trend and there is not much they can do to revitalize these franchises and bring excitement to newcomers and lapsed 360 players. God of war needed that refresh because if it was the same old gameplay in a new setting there just wouldn't be any excitement except for the hardcore fans. I see so many people saying, I am not a god of war fan but the new one has my interest. I am just not sure what halo or gears can change up dramatically so the only option for ms is getting behind a new ip in a big way.

Microsoft hasn't released numbers for Halo 5 or Gears of Wars 4. Let's focus on facts instead of ******** unreliable statistics, please.

Edit : See? I can't even use that website on here. It's unreliable.

We have very reliable leaks in the npd threads and the source is not what you are pointing out. There is a reason why MS hasn't released numbers for these games because if they were great, they would be shouting from the rooftops. Please tell me you are not naive enough to believe these games are doing close to what they were doing in the previous gen.

 

[VincentMatts]

Nice job. Is that really all of MS first party studios?

Yeah, this is not an impressive list.

We have very reliable leaks in the npd threads and the source is not what you are pointing out. There is a reason why MS hasn't released numbers for these games because if they were great, they would be shouting from the rooftops. Please tell me you are not naive enough to believe these games are doing close to what they were doing in the previous gen.

When is the last time they revealed numbers for any of their products?

 

[wapplew]

Well then.

Who is taking bets? My money is on Crackdown.

Me too.
Similar to QB as a product if TV TV, Crackdown as a show piece for power of the cloud, both no longer being use in Xbox one PR...