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Kojima: Overly sexualized women in DS will be given a deep background story"
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
T.Slothrop
Member
Well every pizza delivery boy needs a bored housewife. I'm assuming that's what his next game is, right? The spiritual sequel to paper boy.
LOL deep back story. The only thing that DOB is thinking about is how to make a backstory he can plunge deep into on psvr.
Nice try Kojima.
LOL deep back story. The only thing that DOB is thinking about is how to make a backstory he can plunge deep into on psvr.
Nice try Kojima.
chillybright
Banned
hahaha
sure Kojima san.
sure Kojima san.
I haven't played MGS5 yet, but the Quiet gifs makes me uncomfortable. I think it's the facial expression (or lack of expression) on that character model combined with the teasing sexual body lantuage and camera angle. It's really offputing. Can't say I have much faith in Kojima on this, at all.
btw, I made a tutorial for how to ignore on mobile GAF.
I like sexy female video game character designs. I like non-sexy female video game character designs.
I don't really care if female character designs are too sexy to be realistic, nor do I really care if there are plot rationalizations for what they wear. Sexiness has never had any influence on my purchasing behaviour. I suspect that outside of a moe love pillow owning lunatic fringe this also runs true for most consumers, but who knows.
Evidently I'm a raging mysogynist because I'm capable of enjoying the beauty of the female form, can enjoy provocative works of art that involve women while still respecting them, and see the upside of seeing artists unrestrained by puritanism.
Please, internet, stop thinking that you're in a position to tell me what my thoughts or preferences should be, particularly about what I'm allowed to be attracted to or consider art. We're blessed to live in a free society where people have the sanctity of their own opinions. I'm humble enough to be swayed by quality arguments, but in this case I don't think your argument is superior. This seems like the spiral of "ever greater hysteria about ever smaller causes," and I'm not obligated to agree.
I don't really care if female character designs are too sexy to be realistic, nor do I really care if there are plot rationalizations for what they wear. Sexiness has never had any influence on my purchasing behaviour. I suspect that outside of a moe love pillow owning lunatic fringe this also runs true for most consumers, but who knows.
Evidently I'm a raging mysogynist because I'm capable of enjoying the beauty of the female form, can enjoy provocative works of art that involve women while still respecting them, and see the upside of seeing artists unrestrained by puritanism.
Please, internet, stop thinking that you're in a position to tell me what my thoughts or preferences should be, particularly about what I'm allowed to be attracted to or consider art. We're blessed to live in a free society where people have the sanctity of their own opinions. I'm humble enough to be swayed by quality arguments, but in this case I don't think your argument is superior. This seems like the spiral of "ever greater hysteria about ever smaller causes," and I'm not obligated to agree.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
He's the Linedolf of games
Tye The Czar
Member
Oh Boy! Another opportunity to bring up this comic!
I mean, good grief can these creators take a hint?
I mean, good grief can these creators take a hint?
Kazuo Hirai
I really want everyone to know how much more Titanfall 2 sold than Nioh. It was a staggering amount.
In one of Overwatch's biggest market, people call this game "ASS"
ITT people conflate attractiveness with sexualisation with objectification.
god. These are all different concepts.
Overwatch contains attractive characters that are very mildly sexualised by the devs (choise poses) the fanbase further sexualised and some objectified the characters.
Quiet is over sexualised and hence objectified completely by Kojima.
god. These are all different concepts.
Overwatch contains attractive characters that are very mildly sexualised by the devs (choise poses) the fanbase further sexualised and some objectified the characters.
Quiet is over sexualised and hence objectified completely by Kojima.
I don't think anyone told you you're mysogynist for enjoying games that has sexy characters.
But we shouldn't be denying that there is a problem with female representation, we should aim for better representation of females characters in videogames.
About this
As I sais previously, we shouldn't equate to sexy character = artistic freedom and non sexy character =restricted/censored/afraid of puritants. Sexy characters are also done NOT because it's what the artist wants, but just because its what they will sell the most for them, same as how it can happens otherwise too.
Widowmaker
Do you have an argument for why his original vision is superior that goes beyond "it's his original vision"? Why seeing all the naked people is better than not seeing all the naked people?
Because I'm lost as to what point that 'proved'. You started off by saying Michelangelo wouldn't have been censored... And he was. And he's still recognized as one of the greatest painters of all time.
Now your seem to be trying to make some kind of implication that the original painting would have been better because it had nudity. That the priests criticism is some relevant piece of advice we should learn to not listen to.
And I was to know why. What is it that the Last Judgment lacks that it would not without it's free dicks and titties?
I'd like to meet that "we" person someday that is in the position to dictate a group of developers how to make their product. Are you on the development team of Death Stranding? Are you creatively involved in game development at all?
I see a lot of "you" and what you think is not good representation disregarding anything that comes with the creative process.
smh
Telephone Man
Member
Not this time, Kojima... just outright admit if you're gonna sexualise the characters... don't hide behind a shield of white armour.
Always found bits like this corny, and made me like Quiet less. Hype lessened.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Hey, I have an idea. How about we just have regular female characters with strong backstories. Does Kojima fundamentally not understand sexism?
Overtly sexualized characters is.... not a great running gag.
Overtly sexualized characters is.... not a great running gag.
Messofanego
Banned
Carrying out strawmans for a persecution complex isn't exactly helping your argument. Since no one considered you a misogynist. You're taking this personal. Do you agree or disagree on the sexism between the frequency of sexualised female character designs versus male character designs?
Not incorrect, there are some good things about her story, but there's also the fact that:
- she becomes 'infatuated' with Venom overnight, for no logical reason. Like there's no character development or relationship development, she's just suddenly like "i'm going to follow you everywhere and protect you and shove my ass in your face"
- her entire plotline from that point forward becomes Venom-/player-pandering – her situation at the end is
'sacrifice myself for the main man'
- the biggest plot hole in the entire game stems from the fact that when she decides to
help Diamond Dogs
Tell us how you really feel.
activatethesmile
Member
Lol.
At this point, I think I respect stuff like Dead or Alive more than Kojima's. At least games like Dead or Alive don't play pretend with their sexualization and being upfront about it, instead of pretending that sexualizing female characters is suddenly ok when you give them "deep" backstory to make the whole thing like some sort of artsy philosophical project or some shit, lol.
What a ridiculous thing to say.
At this point, I think I respect stuff like Dead or Alive more than Kojima's. At least games like Dead or Alive don't play pretend with their sexualization and being upfront about it, instead of pretending that sexualizing female characters is suddenly ok when you give them "deep" backstory to make the whole thing like some sort of artsy philosophical project or some shit, lol.
What a ridiculous thing to say.
Of course Im a no one in this industry, but as a consumers we still can give feedback. And giving feedback is good, it's not about dicting what devs should do or censorsing their works.
Let's take a reverse example with DOA5. When the game was first shown, the idea of the devs was to shy away from the sexiness of older entries, and they showed the first redesign (Hitomi) with more realistic expressions. What happened? people complained about how she wasn't pretty enough, where's the sexy stuff... so they backpedaled, changed her face a little to make her more cute looking and went full on board with the sexy promotion again.
So, is that censorship, like some people would say if it was a reverse case? no, it was feedback, and this is good for the industry, because devs needs to know what their audience wants.
So yes, I think giving feedback that we want wide array of diferent female representations is good. Of course devs are free to do whatever the fuck their want after that.
Mr.Monitor
Member
As someone who loves Kojima's games across the board, "Origin" perfectly encapsulates some of the writing you find in his stuff.
Honestly for me my issue isn't so much with "sexy outfits" as it is with the context provided. If it makes sense for a character to embrace their sexuality and/or flaunt it I really don't see a reason to complain. The problem is Kojima completely ignores context on a character building level when it comes to sex appeal, which comes across as entirely ridiculous when contained within a series that's nothing less than obsessive when it comes to details. Kojima's mindset seems to be about balance, but he's missing the point. When Quiet and her scenes are more jarring than the rest of an unfinished game full of ridiculous shit something is wrong, and it's not even remotely related to her backstory. We shouldn't need to be told why characters dress a certain way, up front they should just exist comfortably within the world they occupy. Then you can fill in the details and maybe surprise us a little. Kojima has it backwards, he explains stuff in an attempt to make things fit in, rather than just ensuring cohesiveness up front. It's a shame because MGS1 did this pretty much flawlessly and he's had an issue with it ever since.
Triggerhappytel
Member
How about he just makes normal female characters who aren't overly sexualised?!
Get Buff
Junior Member
(Today, 05:03 AM)
Seriously though, nobody's saying you're a misogynist. The actual problem here is larger than you, or me, or most of us here. The problem is that uneven sexual objectification (of women or men, or anyone) in media can cause widespread and lasting damage to a culture and society. Women get catcalled, molested and raped a lot more than men, still face a glass ceiling, lower wages, etc, etc – and among many factors causing this is the fact that the media treats them differently and unfairly, with infinitely more sexual objectification and flimsy creativity than their male counterparts. In this case, it's the heinous way Kojima treats most of his female characters while treating none of his male characters the same way.
If there was a male equivalent of Quiet, Paz, Meryl, etc, in terms of sexualisation, there would be no problem here.
Sexualisation itself isn't the problem, it's inherently a good and important thing.
Ironically, the Puritan "shaming of bodies" is a big reason any of this is a problem in the first place, rather than being why many of us are bothered by Kojima's ways.
^ Precisely
Between this thread, the Ashley Judd thread and our favourite Overwatch fan art this is my general reaction
"They say the eyes are the windows to the soul. I dont know what them eyes was the windows to and I guess I'd as soon not know. But there is another view of the world out there and other eyes to see it and that's where this is goin."
That's great
Gooch: The Destroyer
my power is unlimited xoxo XANDER
(Today, 02:00 AM)
It's insane that he starts writing female characters with the presumption that they're gonna be hot. It's just insane.
Not surprised, Kojima has been getting more tacky with his female designs as his games go on.
I don't want to have to keep looking over my shoulder and have my finger over the PS button like I did with Quiet.
Just give us more Sniper Wolf/The Boss, I'll take them even with their whole let me bust my tits out during this fight shit.
I don't want to have to keep looking over my shoulder and have my finger over the PS button like I did with Quiet.
Just give us more Sniper Wolf/The Boss, I'll take them even with their whole let me bust my tits out during this fight shit.
The assumption that people being against characters like Quiet comes from puritanism is not only wrong but dare I say a little American.
See I'm dutch. I saw movies that would be considered soft porn as part of my high school education, I've never been to the beach without seeing topless women and nudity is pretty common on TV.
Yet characters like quiet annoy me. Not because she is showing more than others and not because she has big boobs. She annoys me because she is only there for men like you. In a game that normally would have appealed to me as well.
But Kojima isn't saying he is a bit of a perv and that he likes making games for men like you. No he wants the general public as well and hide behinds a deep backstory which never is that deep.
And when people like me say that having characters like Quiet in the mainstream makes us uncomfortable because it seems that our gender excist mainly in service of men, I don't think that is part of the "greater hysteria about smaller causes".
King Tubby
Member
That's a little overboard. Kojima is a legitimately great game designer and one of the most influential working today. That said, his fondness of cheesecake is definitely a flaw.
The thing of it is that there isn't even (IMO) anything wrong with making sexy female characters doing sexy things. The issue is when it completely dominates the character's design, like it does with Quiet where it's just inescapable. Subtlety can be sexy too.
Yeah, it's the dishonesty that's really egregious with what Kojima did with Quiet and what he's apparently doing once more with Death Stranding. His approach also assumes the player is an imbecile that won't see past the rationalization.
MGS is known for having weapon walk around in outfit meant to show off their bodies. We've had that in basically every game (Sniper Wolf in 1, Meryl's Ass, Fortune's leotard, etc...). It's something we'd come to expect. But Quiet was that and pathetic things like the helicopter animations, the rain scene, the shower scenes. It got ratcheted up to another level while at the same time introducing a B.S. excuse.
Man, I wish gamers would stop white knighting for artists as if we're a bunch of victims chained down by the oppression of criticism. You're not fooling anyone; just admit you wanna see virtual tits and call it a day instead of trying to make your libido about the ethics of "censorship."
That's fine but I think this debate is wider than what you personally like looking at. I don't think anyone is trying to tell you that appreciating sexy women is wrong.
whalleywhat
Member
What hint are these creators meant to take? Seems like Beaton's covering her bases, mocking a bunch of different people, and not really saying anything.
It seems like numerous people are trying to tell me exactly that.
Yeah i'm still so ashamed for criticized Quiet sexuality after i figured out her story...
Not this time, Kojima... just outright admit if you're gonna sexualise the characters... don't hide behind a shield of white armour.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
I think sex helps sell a game (and especially DLC). Devs should work on good gameplay, then add the sex appeal after. Like a cherry on a sundae - assuming they are targeting the straight male demographic.
God knows, I wouldnt be playing Overwatch if all the women had the sex appeal of Ana or Zarya.
God knows, I wouldnt be playing Overwatch if all the women had the sex appeal of Ana or Zarya.
whalleywhat
Member
Hopefully not a derail, but can I ask you what the significance of the 88 in your name is? I see it around a lot.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Kojima a savage lmao
Audioboxer
Member
Either personal numbers of significance or year of birth? The later is something I don't recommend anyone ever does with avatar names, but it was quite a "trend" to do it in the early days of the internet. Hence why you might see a lot of "8x" in names. 80's children! When social/reverse engineering is a massive problem in today's internet world you should try your best not to give up much free info to preying eyes.
exactly my thought.
King Tubby
Member
88 is a common neo-nazi code for Heil Hitler (H is the 8th letter in the alphabet). Not that this poster is a neo-nazi.
semiconscious
Member
baby got background? 
...
...
Kojima never used those words, the article writer did.
Well, I can't speak for those people but the fact that heterosexual men like looking at sexy women shouldn't be news to anyone and isn't really the issue. The issue is the excessive and disproportionate pandering to that segment. I mean, everyone like checking out some sexy character don't they? And that's okay.
This is golden!
I love ya Kojima, but ...just... dont...!
Also:
You made me spill water all over my keyboard and screen.
It was worth it!
I love ya Kojima, but ...just... dont...!
Also:
You made me spill water all over my keyboard and screen.
It was worth it!
FairFriend
Member
What kind of fucked up argument is this? "I can sexualize my female characters as much as I want as long as I pretend to have a reason to do so". I mean, I love the metal gear series to death, and admittedly it gets juvenile at point, but I didn't think Kojima was so out of touch.
EDIT:
Yeah, exactly. I mean, DoA is targeted to a specific audiendce who knows what those games are like. I find them comparatively inoffensive, at least they are not being disingenuous, thus lowering the chances of making anybody feel uncomfortable.
EDIT:
Yeah, exactly. I mean, DoA is targeted to a specific audiendce who knows what those games are like. I find them comparatively inoffensive, at least they are not being disingenuous, thus lowering the chances of making anybody feel uncomfortable.