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[ZombieSupaStar]

weird, I thought Torment would have been easier than Wasteland 2.

With Wasteland 2, it was their first CRPG, and fully 3D.

 

[Sasie]

I don't see why delay of the game is an issue.

What's up with Bard's Tale?

Problem with Bard's Tale is mostly that even InXile seemed to forget they even kick-started it at times. Unlike Wasteland 3 who's fig campaign was launched in November last year the game doesn't even have it's won website to promote the game and the small single page for the project on inXile website is half filled up with crowd founding information and weekly contributions to get even more money for a game they can barely bother to talk about.

It's not just that their games get delayed but that they keep launching new crowd founding campaigns before they complete their already existing ones. They have three kick starter games and one fig campaign right now and so far the only game they managed to release is Wasteland 2. At some point I think a company should just start releasing their already promised things before asking for more money.

 

[More_Badass]

This defence only works if there wasn't a kickstarter with stretch goals promising this. Those stretch goals were there to make people pay more and to have more people back.

Imagine backing or upping your pledge because you fell in love with the concept of that companion only for it to get cut later.

That's the nature of game/movie/book/TV/etc, development. Things change. You're basically asking the devs to predict the exact state, scope, and design of the finished game years in advance.

The game comes first here.

weird, I thought Torment would have been easier than Wasteland 2.

With Wasteland 2, it was their first CRPG, and fully 3D.

Torment is a completely different ballpark. And is Wasteland a CRPG? It always seem more XCOM + RPG to me, major focus on combat

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Problem with Bard's Tale is mostly that even InXile seemed to forget they even kick-started it at times. Unlike Wasteland 3 who's fig campaign was launched in November last year the game doesn't even have it's won website to promote the game and the small single page for the project on inXile website is half filled up with crowd founding information and weekly contributions to get even more money for a game they can barely bother to talk about.

It's not just that their games get delayed but that they keep launching new crowd founding campaigns before they complete their already existing ones. They have three kick starter games and one fig campaign right now and so far the only game they managed to release is Wasteland 2. At some point I think a company should just start releasing their already promised things before asking for more money.

Well, I partially agree with you.

InExile seems to be a crowdfund-only company at this point, and that really doesn't mix with how tech companies are really run.

They start up Project B because the people that do so have been let go from Project A. Same with Project C and so forth.

While Fargo has tried his best explain this, it really just is exhausting.

I think Pillars 2 and Banner 3 did this well by doing Project B without crowdfunding, only to return to the well for Project C.

 

[TunaLover]

It's kinda sad that he thinks that about Nintendo fan base, indie games usually do well on Nintendo platforms, would loved played it on Switch :c

 

[jrcbandit]

These are total non-issues, but lets act like the developer is the worst and Kickstarter is all a scam! I dunno what the Bards Tale issues are if any, but I'm greatly looking forward to Torment despite all this needless drama nonsense.

 

[SpiceMelange]

What's sad about this is that they didn't tell the backers until now, a month or so before release. The guys at Kingdom Come: Deliverance in contrast are good at ripping the bandaid off early if a feature is going to be dropped or altered. Thus stuff like no blacksmithing has been handled well by the community on that game

 

[Striek]

That's the nature of game/movie/book/TV/etc, development. Things change. You're basically asking the devs to predict the exact state, scope, and design of the game years in advance.

The game comes first here.

At what point does the initial scope of the game and the planned features reflect on the final outcome?

How close do they have to get to the original pitch, aka what people paid money for, before its reasonable to voice concerns or dissent?

 

[Sarcastic Poster]

Btw, InXile don't have good history on this. Wasteland 2 was supposed to have mod tools, a Chris Avellone novella and a La Brea Tar Pits area designed by Fargo.

 

[True Fire]

I still believe in Kickstarter games. However, the game crowdfunding system as we know it doesn't work. I'm hoping now that Kickstarter's shine has worn we'll start seeing more quality and sustainable projects

 

[Renekton]

What's sad about this is that they didn't tell the backers until now, a month or so before release. The guys at Kingdom Come: Deliverance in contrast are good at ripping the bandaid off early if a feature is going to be dropped or altered. Thus stuff like no blacksmithing has been handled well by the community on that game

I think they tried their best till the last minute possible to squeeze them in before waving the white flag. Should still be a very good game.

I still believe in Kickstarter games. However, the game crowdfunding system as we know it doesn't work. I'm hoping now that Kickstarter's shine has worn we'll start seeing more quality and sustainable projects

Until someone implements a far better idea, it is way better than nothing. Lots of games from our childhood coming to life is fantastic despite the pitfalls.

 

[More_Badass]

I still believe in Kickstarter games. However, the game crowdfunding system as we know it doesn't work. I'm hoping now that Kickstarter's shine has worn we'll start seeing more quality and sustainable projects

We have. For years.

 

[HStallion]

At what point does the initial scope of the game and the planned features reflect on the final outcome?

How close do they have to get to the original pitch, aka what people paid money for, before its reasonable to voice concerns or dissent?

This is up to the people putting their money down but like I said on the first page, I put money down on the initial pitch knowing full well development is never a clean and easy thing. The game still sounds like the one they pitched with some changes as to where and how they focused their efforts. I'm still getting two major hubs, I'm still getting an assortment of companions and the game itself sounds and looks like what I was expecting. This might be a bigger deal to some but as long as the game itself is well written, well produced, and fulfills what I want out of a story heavy and reactive CRPG I think I'll be good.

 

[SpiceMelange]

I think they tried their best till the last minute possible to squeeze them in before waving the white flag. Should still be a very good game.


Until someone implements a far better idea, it is way better than nothing. Lots of games from our childhood coming to life is fantastic despite the pitfalls.

Considering Inxile's response, especially about the cut companion, it doesn't seem like a last minute decision at all.

 

[Pacotez]

I won't back any kickstart for a long time. At least not until I find a dev who makes achievable stretch goals and does good on them without hiding them from the backers

 

[Dineren]

So many great games have come out thanks to Kickstarter, there isn't anything wrong with the system. Developers just need to be transparent if time or funding requires them to change the scope of the project.

 

[StereoVsn]

There seems to be for some in the community a prioritization of specific rewards being fulfilled as opposed to the delivery of a good product overall. I can't say I agree with that but I do understand why Kickstarter at least makes it a little complicated. If you put money in specifically for something that gets cut, I suppose you could be justifiably upset. Does that happen often? Do people back for a specific thing even if the game suffers just to have that thing?

Development is challenging so I think some things are bound to not make it.

It's perfectly understand when things are cut during development. It's kind of shitty when developer cuts aspects that were Kickstarter stretch goals and wasn't planning of telling backers until they got caught. That's really the concerning part especially considering drawn out development.

 

[Sarcastic Poster]

Considering Inxile's response, especially about the cut companion, it doesn't seem like a last minute decision at all.

Plenty of time to communicate it with backers then.

 

[Nzyme32]

As a backer the main thing I want is a good game. I would rather see developers make the best game possible rather than stick a checklist of features. Ideally every single stretch goal and feature makes it in and they are also of high quality. But that's not the reality of creative development. Sometimes an idea sounds better on paper than in execution. Once you realize that, it's better to have the balls to cut it out or change it rather than to stubbornly stick to it.

With regards to Torment in particular, it's hard to tell what has actually been cut because the forum post linked here only details the Oasis content being scaled back. There are no specifics about how many companions are cut and which ones in particular. Hard to get mad...

Pretty much

Only thing that is disappointing to me is that having an orchestra for the soundtrack is gone, which was something I was looking forward to, but certainly not the end of the world.

Fact of the matter is, I made a conscious decision to avoid most of the updates as I want to be surprised, yet I knew of the original ideas and plans regarding stretch goals and expect changes along the way - that's game development. So far from what I can see, the changes are still fairly in line with the nature of the stretch goals.

I suppose there are a lot of questions really that could be asked beyond all this. For example, the game was pitched as a PC title yet then got support for consoles. One could argue about questioning how much money that involves, if it affected the nature of development or even if this is why somethings like the orchestra are cut. This could be applied to so many things that have happened over development, and I'm not really sure they are in the wrong anyway.

 

[More_Badass]

It's perfectly understand when things are cut during development. It's kind of shitty when developer cuts aspects that were Kickstarter stretch goals and wasn't planning of telling backers until they got caught. That's really the concerning part especially considering drawn out development.

The game's a million words and ideally designed to be reactive and branching. I'd consider the long development to be a plus

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

Torment is a completely different ballpark. And is Wasteland a CRPG? It always seem more XCOM + RPG to me, major focus on combat

The combat is like poor mans XCOM, but it did have stat use in the locations, and different character builds. As far as dialogue went it had smart/hard/kiss ass stats for different dialogue, but it wasn't done very well. I'd say it was a CRPG, with a lot of mediocre combat (launching right near Divinity OS did NOT help them in this regard either). Felt like a 3D party based Fallout (1/2) that should have came out in 2003, but came out in 2014 instead.

 

[SpiceMelange]

Plenty of time to communicate it with backers then.

It's shitty that only because Codex and their forums have started to be very vocal about it that they opened up about it, a month or so before release. Warhorse studios did it right at least by communicating to their backers asap.

 

[Renekton]

Considering Inxile's response, especially about the cut companion, it doesn't seem like a last minute decision at all.

Okay I stand corrected.

I suppose there are a lot of questions really that could be asked beyond all this. For example, the game was pitched as a PC title yet then got support for consoles. One could argue about questioning how much money that involves, if it affected the nature of development or even if this is why somethings like the orchestra are cut.

At least from my understanding, the KS sum isn't always sufficient to fund the entire development, but it can be used to pitch to other investors for more funding based on fan interest shown. It is possible said investors would prefer more platform ports for the ROI.

 

[Sarcastic Poster]

It's shitty that only because Codex and their forums have started to be very vocal about it that they opened up about it, a month or so before release. Warhorse studios did it right at least by communicating to their backers asap.

Codex are moany bastards but if you wade through the shit it's still the best place for deep CRPG talk on the internet. They've gotten loads of good info from devs in the past.

 

[StereoVsn]

The game's a million words and ideally designed to be reactive and branching. I'd consider the long development to be a plus

Let's hope so. It can be just bland and boring like PoE on the other hand.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Considering Inxile's response, especially about the cut companion, it doesn't seem like a last minute decision at all.

Well yeah, you don't overhaul your design philosophy for party member characters on a whim.

We should have known about this months ago.

 

[duckroll]

Let's hope so. It can be just bland and boring like PoE on the other hand.

Oh man, I would be thrilled if it's as "bland and boring" as PoE.

 

[StereoVsn]

The combat is like poor mans XCOM, but it did have stat use in the locations, and different character builds. As far as dialogue went it had smart/hard/kiss ass stats for different dialogue, but it wasn't done very well. I'd say it was a CRPG, with a lot of mediocre combat (launching right near Divinity OS did NOT help them in this regard either). Felt like a 3D party based Fallout (1/2) that should have came out in 2003, but came out in 2014 instead.

Fallout 1&2 were superior in pretty much all aspects and about equally as buggy... except they got fan mods .

 

[EDarkness]

That's the nature of game/movie/book/TV/etc, development. Things change. You're basically asking the devs to predict the exact state, scope, and design of the finished game years in advance.

The game comes first here.

I understand this and that's completely true. However, when you're promising things to the public, you have to be careful about that. You tell people it's gonna be X, they pay money for this, then change it to Y without much explanation, then that's bad. Gotta make sure that what you're telling people you're going to do, you can actually do. Especially when they're paying you in advance for that.

Game development is too fluid to make any real promises if the goal is to make a good game. I can totally understand why people would get upset when something they paid to have access to (or the original vision of the game) changes into something else. They may not even like this new thing whereas they may have liked the original thing.

Just my point of view on this.

 

[StereoVsn]

Oh man, I would be thrilled if it's as "bland and boring" as PoE.

I am kind of even more apprehensive now. .

If it can't beat PoE's conversation/skill checks/quest resolutions and needlessly bland walls of texts for everything this game has no chance. Come on, we are hoping for PT successor here and PoE doesn't quite reach BG1 levels.

A million words is a lot and hopefully they are set in all the different quests and their solutions but they clearly can't be as generic as PoE simply due to the setting.

 

[120v]

2013 was still the candyland "all your dreams will come true" era of KS. you fund a game from that period, yeah, dont expect all goals to be met. sounds like in this case its nbd

 

[iiicon]

I'd read a message earlier in the Pillars of Eternity 2 thread that offhandedly mentioned inExile were having difficulty fulfilling backer rewards/stretch goals/whatever, and I thought little of it because I didn't back it, nor have I followed the development of it, and have no attachment to the project beyond hoping it does well. Then I read this topic title and got a little more concerned, because you know what, I did enjoy the original game quite a bit and the game must have hit some serious troubles for it to come up multiple times today, right? And then I read a bit of that RPGCodex thread and realized this was completely overblown. These are the types of changes and compromises you make in any creative work; hell, in any job. I'd hoped that Kickstarter would give gamers a glimpse at what the creative world is like so they can properly contextualize the games they love and what goes into them, but I guess the good work of developers and production companies like Two Player Productions is no match for the outrage generated by FUD.

 

[Axass]

The change doesn't affect me too much, but I feel it's kind of sleazy to announce it only now. If it was a normally produced game it'd be fine, but in this case people paid for stuff that's potentially not there anymore.

Personally, as long as the game is a deserving follow-up to Planescape, and has the promised super cool afterlife gimmick, I'm set.

What would happen if a non-mod made that comment?

Seriously, I honestly like him and find him fair most of the time, but what the hell? That comment was uncalled for.

Threads and threads about not spreading hate in gaming and then an admin calls an entire site userbase "social cripples"?

 

[wolfhowwl]

I think it's important to always keep in mind that prior to the advent of internet discussion forums, there were many thousands and perhaps millions of mentally ill individuals in this country who were largely "out of sight and out of mind" to most Americans. These are people who might be on disability and spend virtually all of their time as shut-ins at home, so most people would never encounter them in work or social situations.

For most of us, such people simply didn't exist. When these people would venture out into public, they would often have "episodes" and "outbursts" which would cause normal people to recoil, shun and ostracize them, thus causing these people to further withdraw into their shut-in lives.

But with the advent of internet discussion forums, these people are "in their element" here. They can now talk to literally thousands of people from around the world, from the safety of their little hovels, without fear of any negative physical consequences they would expect to receive in the real world. Hence they feel free to say whatever thought passes through their tortured minds, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. This is the greatest development of their entire lives, and they often spend all day her to the exclusion of all other activities.

So now you understand the RPGCodex.

 

[toddhunter]

Seriously, I honestly like him and find him fair most of the time, but what the hell? That comment was uncalled for.

Threads and threads about not spreading hate in gaming and then an admin calls an entire site userbase "social cripples"?

You have to remember how many anime related posts he needs to read through as a mod. He is only human.


For this, the lesson has always been to never preorder a game, let alone kickstart it years in advance. If you do have an issue with it, chances are they will refund you, happily knowing you are going to end up buying the game anyway once it is out and looks great (well hopefully it is great, I played Wasteland 2 so who really knows...)

 

[SpiceMelange]

I think it's important to always keep in mind that prior to the advent of internet discussion forums, there were many thousands and perhaps millions of mentally ill individuals in this country who were largely "out of sight and out of mind" to most Americans. These are people who might be on disability and spend virtually all of their time as shut-ins at home, so most people would never encounter them in work or social situations.

For most of us, such people simply didn't exist. When these people would venture out into public, they would often have "episodes" and "outbursts" which would cause normal people to recoil, shun and ostracize them, thus causing these people to further withdraw into their shut-in lives.

But with the advent of internet discussion forums, these people are "in their element" here. They can now talk to literally thousands of people from around the world, from the safety of their little hovels, without fear of any negative physical consequences they would expect to receive in the real world. Hence they feel free to say whatever thought passes through their tortured minds, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. This is the greatest development of their entire lives, and they often spend all day her to the exclusion of all other activities.

So now you understand the RPGCodex.

 

[Sasie]

Well, I partially agree with you.

InExile seems to be a crowdfund-only company at this point, and that really doesn't mix with how tech companies are really run.

They start up Project B because the people that do so have been let go from Project A. Same with Project C and so forth.

While Fargo has tried his best explain this, it really just is exhausting.

I think Pillars 2 and Banner 3 did this well by doing Project B without crowdfunding, only to return to the well for Project C.

It can work, or at least it can work better then what inXile is doing. I think the problem really is scale. Brian Fargo gone for the big games each time when I personally think Kickstarter is more suitable for a bit shorter developments then that. Compare them to Harebrained Schemes for example.

Harebrained Schemes launched the Shadowrun returns in 2013 around the same time as Wasteland 2 and they are also on their forth kickstarter game. The difference is that they released five games since then and all their kickstarter campaign games other then Battle tech that launched it's campaign last year.

There just is something off with how inXile does things in my opinion since they promise more but deliver less then other crowdfounding companies.

Okay I stand corrected.


At least from my understanding, the KS sum isn't always sufficient to fund the entire development, but it can be used to pitch to other investors for more funding based on fan interest shown. It is possible said investors would prefer more platform ports for the ROI.

It's a bit irrelevant to the topic but I wonder about this at times. I mean if games always end up more expensive then the original pitch is it possible they used Torment founding for Wasteland 2 to complete it and have to downgrade projects depending on how their other games sell? It's just a huge red flag for me because we don't really know how the money is being used.

It's shitty that only because Codex and their forums have started to be very vocal about it that they opened up about it, a month or so before release. Warhorse studios did it right at least by communicating to their backers asap.

Also this. A huge part of crowd founding in my opinion is trust between the company and the backers and keeping them informed on development. I wouldn't be half so critical if they had just been honest with the development on some of their titles.

After all they were also really slow with letting us know when the game got delayed and the original December 2015 release date was out of the window. They don't seem to have any desire to communicate with their backers.

 

[The Wart]

I am kind of even more apprehensive now. .
If it can't beat PoE's conversation/skill checks/quest resolutions and needlessly bland walls of texts for everything this game has no chance. Come on, we are hoping for PT successor here and PoE doesn't quite reach BG1 levels.

Come on dude, this is straight up nonsense. PoE is a massive step from BG1 in every "Tormenty" dimension of cRPGs. BG1 has practically (maybe even literally) zero reactivity, choice and consequence, quest resolution options, or opportunities for role playing beyond simply picking your class and being generically good or evil. Not to mention that the companion characterization consists entirely of their barks. And I enjoyed BG1!

I understand not liking the aesthetic choices in PoE and preferring those of BG1 but let's not let that get in the way understanding what sort of content is actually in the game.

 

[DigSCCP]

Why are people defending this?
Its funny sometimes how GAF works different weights for the same situation.
But hey its Torment, our beloved game so who cares right? Devs can just come one month before the lauch and say "yo backers you know that extra money you put it so we could reach another stretch? Thanks for your money but its not happening".
I imagine how many shitpost this thread would be filled with if this was a Molyneux or Sean Murray project.
But hey its Torment, our beloved game so who cares right?

 

[Lister]

<Developer> We made a design decision

<Website Full Of Actual Social Cripples> DEVELOPER OUT OF CONTROL, SELLING LIES TO THE PUBLIC, NO MORE WE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!!!!

Jeesus. Where did you get such a big brush. Would you mind painting my building? Shade of red, please.

 

[Maintenance]

Changing stuff is fine, not telling everyone until you got caught isn't. I don't really have faith in this to be honest, PT is a classic and even with all the faults I don't think it will be beaten by this. PoE couldn't beat BG either and that was an easier task (beating PT would be much harder).

Threads and threads about not spreading hate in gaming and then an admin calls an entire site userbase "social cripples"?

Pot, ketttle, etc.

 

[StereoVsn]

Come on dude, this is straight up nonsense. PoE is a massive step from BG1 in every "Tormenty" dimension of cRPGs. BG1 has practically (maybe even literally) zero reactivity, choice and consequence, quest resolution options, or opportunities for role playing beyond simply picking your class and being generically good or evil. Not to mention that the companion characterization consists entirely of their barks. And I enjoyed BG1!

I understand not liking the aesthetic choices in PoE and preferring those of BG1 but let's not let that get in the way understanding what sort of content is actually in the game.

Yeah I was hyperbolic there I must admit, my bad. I will defend BG2 though with my last breath!

 

[Lister]

So no time for a few stretch goals sucks, but it happens... no time to tell your backers, huh... ..but plenty of time for a console port.

Interesting.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

The combat is like poor mans XCOM, but it did have stat use in the locations, and different character builds. As far as dialogue went it had smart/hard/kiss ass stats for different dialogue, but it wasn't done very well. I'd say it was a CRPG, with a lot of mediocre combat (launching right near Divinity OS did NOT help them in this regard either). Felt like a 3D party based Fallout (1/2) that should have came out in 2003, but came out in 2014 instead.

I loved the combat in Wasteland 2

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Yeah, I don't get why people would excuse this given InExile's history and refusal to learn from their past mistakes. I'd also say that it's unfair to compare crowdfunding to traditional game development. If you promise people something if they reach a stretch goal you should deliver it.

 

[StereoVsn]

So no time for some stretch goals... no time to tell your backers... but plenty of time for a console port.

Interesting.

I guess Wasteland 2 sold well enough for them to port to the consoles. Although wasn't the port problematic? Unlike say Divinity OS.

 

[Syril]

I think it's important to always keep in mind that prior to the advent of internet discussion forums, there were many thousands and perhaps millions of mentally ill individuals in this country who were largely "out of sight and out of mind" to most Americans. These are people who might be on disability and spend virtually all of their time as shut-ins at home, so most people would never encounter them in work or social situations.

For most of us, such people simply didn't exist. When these people would venture out into public, they would often have "episodes" and "outbursts" which would cause normal people to recoil, shun and ostracize them, thus causing these people to further withdraw into their shut-in lives.

But with the advent of internet discussion forums, these people are "in their element" here. They can now talk to literally thousands of people from around the world, from the safety of their little hovels, without fear of any negative physical consequences they would expect to receive in the real world. Hence they feel free to say whatever thought passes through their tortured minds, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. This is the greatest development of their entire lives, and they often spend all day her to the exclusion of all other activities.

So now you understand the RPGCodex.

You know, I know RPGCodex's forums are fairly notorious, but I think it's a little tasteless to liken that to mental illness.

 

[Lister]

I guess Wasteland 2 sold well enough for them to port to the consoles. Although wasn't the port problematic? Unlike say Divinity OS.

Plenty of time to do it after they released what they promised too, though.

And yeah, the controls and camera on console were shit. Not only that but they retrofitted the crappy camera back to the PC version.

 

[duckroll]

Why are people defending this?
Its funny sometimes how GAF works different weights for the same situation.
But hey its Torment, our beloved game so who cares right? Devs can just come one month before the lauch and say "yo backers you know that extra money you put it so we could reach another stretch? Thanks for your money but its not happening".
I imagine how many shitpost this thread would be filled with if this was a Molyneux or Sean Murray project.
But hey its Torment, our beloved game so who cares right?

I will be the first in line to shit on inXile when the game comes out and it fails to meet my (low) expectations. Wasteland 2 was a really poorly designed game with questionable implementation of pretty much everything. But the leads on Torment are experienced and talented dudes so they get a chance to show me that inXile isn't totally worthless as a rpg dev. I just want a good game with good writing, so we'll see.

 

[Dineren]

Yeah, I don't get why people would excuse this given InExile's history and refusal to learn from their past mistakes. I'd also say that it's unfair to compare crowdfunding to traditional game development. If you promise people something if they reach a stretch goal you should deliver it.

For the most part I agree, but on the bolded, sometimes it's just impossible to do so. Not a great situation, but it can't be helped sometimes. That said, they should always communicate that fact to their backers rather than trying to ignore it and hope no one notices.