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Bannon told German envoy he views EU as flawed construct, wants per nation relations
- Thread starter chadskin
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Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Nothing has made me more Pro-EU than the fucks who oppose it. I never really cared too much either way before. I don't mean that there aren't any problems with it either, just... fuck me. These twats are far from the solution to any of them.
kavanf1
Member
Whenever discussions about the success or failure of the EU come up, I don't think we often enough cast our minds back to why the EEC (then EC, EU) was created in the first place. Along with NATO and the UN, these alliances were built to minimise the likelihood of future world wars by improving trading relations and stability between nations. While there are absolutely flaws that exist in the evolution of the EU, what worries me is that those who deliberately seek to destroy it instead of fixing it are paving the way to repeating history.
The trouble is that to say something like this, you're accused of scaremongering because on the surface that's all it looks like. However, descension towards war doesn't happen suddenly, it happens because of multiple, incremental, comparatively minor circumstances which cumulatively lead to terrible consequences. Pointing out any one of these minor circumstances does sound like needless hand-wringing. But without pointing them out, if we wait until things have got to the point that war is inevitable, by then it's obviously too late. So the cross to bear if you believe that people should be working towards collective stability, not insularity, is that you will be told you're being hysterical and scaremongering and exaggerating about those who just want the best for their country.
The trouble is that to say something like this, you're accused of scaremongering because on the surface that's all it looks like. However, descension towards war doesn't happen suddenly, it happens because of multiple, incremental, comparatively minor circumstances which cumulatively lead to terrible consequences. Pointing out any one of these minor circumstances does sound like needless hand-wringing. But without pointing them out, if we wait until things have got to the point that war is inevitable, by then it's obviously too late. So the cross to bear if you believe that people should be working towards collective stability, not insularity, is that you will be told you're being hysterical and scaremongering and exaggerating about those who just want the best for their country.
At least they are doing something for global warning, while half the americans believe it is not man made and the president thinks it's a hoax.
HINT : Global warming is the most important issue we face in the coming years - denying it's dangers is one of the most evil things someone can do.
PdotMichael
Banned
Never forget that the USA doesn't have friends or enemies but just interests.
I don't know. I consider the EU sort of a German fourth reich because it has dominated almost all spheres of influence. The EU expanded far too quick, and incorporated too many countries who do not have the same economic or social policies. Think of Greece and Spain and Portugal. A few months back there was talk of Germany wanting to sanction Spain and Portugal for not doing enough to decrease deficits.
An economic union makes sense if everyone shares the same mentality. Sure you can bring in different nations. One of the reason Germany wanted more Eastern European or Balkan countries was to get cheaper migrants and workforce to compete with the US/Mexico and China and India. Free movement both had benefits and disadvantages. Look how much the Brits hate the influx of Poles, how much French and Italian farmers hate how their industries have been affected by cheaper agriculture from elsewhere. Greece still hasn't recovered and it is struggling because as an EU nation, refugees and migrants think if they reach Greece they can get to Berlin and Paris and London easily. Without the UK though, and incressing fragmentation, we might see the decline of this super state back into a sensible union, with a more unified economic and possibly even military union.
As for OP, wtf is Bannon even doing meeting with these groups. Even worse is how the US is alienating their closest allies to cozy up to Russia.
GuyKazama
Member
This has always been Bannon's perspective. From a US point of view, it is better to negotiate individually than with the EU as a whole -- that is the major reason for the EU, to give them a better negotiating position.
The EU concept, unlike NATO, is too flawed to survive. Europeans that I've met think of their own national identity first vs describing themselves as 'Europeans.' I also doubt they want to be run by Germany -- except those that are German.
The EU concept, unlike NATO, is too flawed to survive. Europeans that I've met think of their own national identity first vs describing themselves as 'Europeans.' I also doubt they want to be run by Germany -- except those that are German.
Very well put, and I completely agree. I find it very troubling that the US wants to dismantle the EU instead of collaborating to work out the flaws. Alas, it's the human tendency towards greed and indolence.
Of course a nationalist is against EU. The whole point of it was to unite under a banner that isn't our own country.
In practice that isn't exactly what happened but it's better than "every man for themselves".
My views on the EU were shaken ever since the mishandling of our most recent crisis but, today, I believe that staying together is our best bet against the US and Russia.
The EU is very imperfect but it's a far cry from the loonies in charge on the US and UK.
In practice that isn't exactly what happened but it's better than "every man for themselves".
My views on the EU were shaken ever since the mishandling of our most recent crisis but, today, I believe that staying together is our best bet against the US and Russia.
The EU is very imperfect but it's a far cry from the loonies in charge on the US and UK.
That's because Europe isnt a country. We all speak different languages, and have looooong histories tied to our countries. Sure, I would consider myself to be Dutch first, but I also consider myself to be European. Many people I know think likewise.
Chittagong
Gold Member
European Union is closer to Soviet Union than USA in that sense, individual cultures with their own long histories, strong national identities, and very limited willingness to sacrifice national interests to the greater good.
Retromelon
Member
Nationalism - centuries of warfare over petty squabbles by the ruling classes for land and glory, millions of common folk dead and injured
"Globalism" - 70 years of peace in europe
"Globalism" - 70 years of peace in europe
The EU concept can survive fine, the monetary union is far more likely to suffer before the political union, especially in Greece and Italy. I wonder where many of these anti-EU folk live, though, I'm sure Slovenia would love to start negotiating bilateral deals with a trading partner hundreds of times their size.
Frankfurter
Member
I genuinely hadn't heard this argument for Greece failing economy before.
Its a good thing that the US isn't alienating south america, or else the EU might be in a prime position to make deals with them, especially considering they just so happen to have Portugal and Spain as its members, which for absolutely no reason what so ever do have ties with those countries.
Frozenprince
Banned
If this whole fucked up mess we've gotten ourselves in causes the EU to federalize I'll be greatly amused.
Calm waterfall
Banned
But EU countries do make bilateral relationships. I remember France going to China drooling to get a contract from the Chinese to buy Airbus or something like that. I actually think that is ok. I am very much pro EU but you can still make relationship outside of the EU.
says the guy from the flawless construct where a majority in votes doesn't necessarily translate into winning. great stuff.
seems like the hard-line republicans are finally showing their true face. This kind of "economic hate" against Europe isn't new and goes way back, at least until the 80s, probably even further. But this is probably the first time their agenda is visible this clearly. Former administrations at least tried to hide their dissatisfaction
seems like the hard-line republicans are finally showing their true face. This kind of "economic hate" against Europe isn't new and goes way back, at least until the 80s, probably even further. But this is probably the first time their agenda is visible this clearly. Former administrations at least tried to hide their dissatisfaction
The best part for me about all this, is that if china manages to grow their economy into something proper for its population size, the US will in fact need to unite with the EU to properly negotiate with it.
So a divided EU would be bad for the US in the short term (biggest trading partner), and it is probably bad for the US in the long term also.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
You absolutely can in some areas. That doesn't mean that China doesn't try to push as much as it can in terms of treaties. This has nothing to do with particular sales like Airbus planes and whatnot but broader things such as trade and collaboration agreements.
That's not what that is. The trade deals we're talking about are about laws, tariffs and regulations. This one is just a contract.
What's this long term thing you are talking about? How does a 70+ year old Babyboomer President deal with long term thinking when he can just do a quick score with a population with similar short term thinking at hand? All this stuff about world peace and becoming one world? PFFT, let the young uns worry about that... after they took care of him, they can also fix the planet.
the electoral college is way more flawed that the eu parliament
About what, the breakup of the EU? As a European Union citizen, can I ask what right do Americans have to seek the breakup of a political union that is of great relevance and importance to me? If a European politician actively endorsed the view that the US should be broken up they would be told to get fucked....and then get fucked some more.
thehypocrite
Member
Once again power acts as an amplifier and not a moderator for the radicals.
I hope so much that you are young and not allowed to vote yet. Oh boy.
https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status/834118604551495680
This really is their modus operandi right now.
This really is their modus operandi right now.
- Spain and Portugal as well as Italy are integral part of Western Europe. There could be no EU without them. If EU did not have south european countries, there would be no EU.
- Brits hating Polish influx is like Trump supporters hating Mexicans. Makes no sense, it is not grounded in reality.
- Greece has been struggling for more than a hundred years. It is first state that declared bankruptcy in modern times. It has nothing to do with EU, and clearly it has nothing to do with refugees as it happened much before that.
- French and Italian farmers have benefited greatly from EU. They get to peddle their state supported goods everywhere else at dumping prices and nobody can fight EU on it.
- Whole point of EU and what people dont like is economic measures which means limiting deficit. Everything else is just fluff. There is no way it can ever be more unified than now economically and there is absolutely no way they could do a military together.
DasPenguin
Member
Great post, especially what you said about Greece.
Just so I know...because I can't believe what I'm reading, do you really mean that?
basically
america/banon/trump will not help you country.
... fourth reich? jesus i think thats not whats happening at all
Your ignorance of the origins and necessity for a EU is truly baffling. I hope you were't serious with your ridiculous statement.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Regardless of the actual influence Germany has in the European Union which is undoubtedly a lot allusions to the Third Reich are clearly done out of contempt. Ignore them, because the people making them are wank pheasants.
The US should be considered a hostile nation state by the EU. I can't even believe I am typing that but it is where we are. The Anglosphere is on full on facist meltdown and needs to be saved from itself.
The German's weren't the one's pushing for expansion, it was the British.
The EU's problems today stem from lack of further Federalisation, politician's have sold some myths about Southern Europe for short term political expediency. The solution is ever greater union and I hope the EU continues down this path.
The German's weren't the one's pushing for expansion, it was the British.
The EU's problems today stem from lack of further Federalisation, politician's have sold some myths about Southern Europe for short term political expediency. The solution is ever greater union and I hope the EU continues down this path.
kavanf1
Member
I was on holiday in Greece a couple of years ago and talked to the locals about this. It's much less about being in the EU than it is about the fact that geographically Greece is composed of so many islands, many of which are tourist havens, so bring in huge amounts of money relative to many parts of mainland Greece. Not an issue in and of itself - the issue is that the oversight of taxation which should make its way back to central government to manage the country's infrastructure is utterly appalling. Effectively many islands operate as their own economies, with insignificant levels of tax payments making their way back to the main government due to cash in hand and straight up corruption; from the local handyman right through to large businesses, tax evasion is rife and consequently some parts of Greece do really well but the country as a whole suffers greatly. Unless and until they actually address this, then it doesn't matter what construct Greece is or isn't a part of, the root cause of their problems will never be resolved.
Nomadic Sparks
Banned
What exactly would the EU do to the US? Sanctions????
While the economic costs are undoubtedly to high to sanction the US it would be quite interesting to see how fast corporate america would kick Trump out of the white house when they can't sell in europe.
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