I disagreed with a few points in the earlier entries in the video series, but the video that this thread is ostensibly about is on point, even though it barely touches upon Kai Leng and carried over choices yet shows rather a lot of deference to Bioware's effort (it's too bad that the project was rushed and some developers worked 90 hour weeks at points, but consumers shouldn't excuse a final product based on production difficulties).
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Mass Effect 3... 5 Years Later
- Thread starter gbpackers25
- Start date
WrenchNinja
Member
This was a good analysis. Surprised he didn't mention what Javik's role was originally going to be.
enigmatic_alex44
Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
Having "choices" should have never been a part of this series, we should have received a well told sci-fi trilogy without worrying about what a player may have chosen to do in the previous game like what the Xenosaga trilogy did.
LMAO remember how the players who chose to kill the Rachni Queen in the first game will stumble upon an identical but "different" queen in ME3 even though that choice in the first game should have left them extinct?
LMAO remember how the players who chose to kill the Rachni Queen in the first game will stumble upon an identical but "different" queen in ME3 even though that choice in the first game should have left them extinct?
Tranqueris
Banned
The original ending made me completely stop playing that game. A lot of people tried to defend the game by saying "well it's the journey that counts" but why the hell am I gonna put more time into the game if it's gonna wrap up like that?
Also Andromeda made me wanna try out the ME3 multiplayer and yeah, it still continues to be criminally underrated. I've been playing since my Andromeda trial ran out and I keep having to remind myself that this game is 5 years old. It's that good.
What did he mean by this?
Member
"Shepard's story will continue in dlc" is still one of the worst things ever in a video game
But the conclusions to the wonderfully written characters of the trilogy were some of the best things ever
But the conclusions to the wonderfully written characters of the trilogy were some of the best things ever
theCalamity
Member
One gripe I had in ME3 (aside from the beginning and ending) is that they tried to make Earth important. They were banking that since we all live on Earth, we will automatically care for it, but since the game takes place in the far future, Earth is alien to us, the players. We never visit it until the third game in the trilogy. It's hard to develop feelings for it since it's the first time we're seeing Earth and even then, it's only for a short bit before we get on our ship.
It puts a strain on the rest of the story. Shepard and other characters constantly talk about how Earth has it the worst, but to be honest, it looks about as bad as any of the other homeworlds aside from Tuchanka which is already a nuclear wasteland. Shepard goes to meet with the new turian Primarch and drags him onto her ship so that the turians can start helping Earth, but the turian homeworld is being attacked as well. It's tone deaf. We're getting these other specieis to drop their respective battles with the Reapers so that they can come help humanity's battle with the Reapers.
It puts a strain on the rest of the story. Shepard and other characters constantly talk about how Earth has it the worst, but to be honest, it looks about as bad as any of the other homeworlds aside from Tuchanka which is already a nuclear wasteland. Shepard goes to meet with the new turian Primarch and drags him onto her ship so that the turians can start helping Earth, but the turian homeworld is being attacked as well. It's tone deaf. We're getting these other specieis to drop their respective battles with the Reapers so that they can come help humanity's battle with the Reapers.
Perfect description of Kai Leng. I don't think I've ever disliked a side character in a game as much. The whole character concept and the way they used this super duper cyber ninja in the game were just so bad that it almost felt like BioWare were insulting your intelligence.
SchrodingerC
Member
His statement about Bioware's emotional manipulation with certain characters and events were right on the money.
Why should Shepard care about the random kid that managed to himself killed? The kid had a chance to be rescued, but decided to fuck off instead. It wasn't Shepard's fault the kid was an idiot and refused help.
That and trying to replay the game while being forced to play those obnoxious stress dream sequences. If my Shepard had to chase after someone they'd care about or hell, a simple cutscene showing those that Shepard had lost or a burning earth would've been more effective and time sensitive than those annoying dream sequences.
Regarding the reuse of music, I was happy Bioware reused the Eden Prime music from the first game for Javik's recovery mission. It was appropriate for the area and it gave players a kick of nostalgia.
Also, the ambiance music reminds me of the soundtrack from Alien, so that's a plus.
Why should Shepard care about the random kid that managed to himself killed? The kid had a chance to be rescued, but decided to fuck off instead. It wasn't Shepard's fault the kid was an idiot and refused help.
That and trying to replay the game while being forced to play those obnoxious stress dream sequences. If my Shepard had to chase after someone they'd care about or hell, a simple cutscene showing those that Shepard had lost or a burning earth would've been more effective and time sensitive than those annoying dream sequences.
Regarding the reuse of music, I was happy Bioware reused the Eden Prime music from the first game for Javik's recovery mission. It was appropriate for the area and it gave players a kick of nostalgia.
Also, the ambiance music reminds me of the soundtrack from Alien, so that's a plus.
Honestly, I agree. Or at least, there should have been less focus on making player choices span multiple titles and put more work into making fleshed out, self-contained side stories for the player to influence that didn't extend beyond the scope of just one game. The big choices ultimately didn't make a huge difference and the way they tied up most of those plots was supremely underwhelming.
This is a great point, too. They should've relied on the familiar characters the player had been interacting with the whole series up to that point to pull the the player through the game. They screwed themselves by making every character in ME2 expendable to the story, the third game was a terrible time to introduce yet another set of characters the player has to develop an emotional bond with before the game is over, while simultaneously wrapping up all the plot threads established by the previous game. So they just made it all about Earth being in danger, which didn't carry with it an emotional currency for the player and came across really hollow.
Makoto Yuki
Banned
The game that shipped wasn't very good, but it wasn't the worst game ever. It was somewhere in between. Subsequent DLC and patches later made it a more fleshed out, well rounded game.
His point at the end that each game is flawed in their own way is very poignant. Great video.
His point at the end that each game is flawed in their own way is very poignant. Great video.
Lord Frieza
Member
Maybe I'm misremembering, but wasn't one of the points of the early parts of the game that they had developed specifically anti-Reaper weapons over the years since their discovery? I feel like I remember this, but may be wrong.
Not that I think it matter much. ME3 sucked. People say if you ignore the ending it's okay, but I thought the whole game was a giant letdown on almost every level
theCalamity
Member
I've always maintained that Shepard's avatar for his anguish and despair should have been whichever squaddie he let die on Virmire. That way, when you have the dream sequences, you could literally be haunted by your past decisions. Still, I don't think the dream sequences should've been in there at all. It felt like they were trying to be deep and artsy without earning it.
Yeah, they developed smaller Reapers, but then I'm left wondering why the Reapers needed smaller, weaker versions of themselves that really don't serve any tactical purpose as far as I can tell.
Finished a playthrough last year. I mostly liked it and didnt hate the ending. But there were some dumb moments. In my head canon i swap ME2 and ME3 chronologically. It works much better. (Although some of the loyalty missions need to be swapped)
Good
-Further expanded character customization
-Weapon choice/Mods
-Squad 1 button detonations
-Liara, Tali, Garrus and the Prothean
-Most of the loyalty missions
-Liz Traynor
Bad
-Follow the child missions
-constantly reffering to shepard as a legend. It was like Bioware wished they were making Halo
-The Winter Soilder. WTF. Atleast resurect Kaiden/Ashley or have Mirranda fill that role.
-locking the games best origional character behind DLC
-Edi, and James Vega
- increased reliance on fantasy tropes. Banshees/Brutes and robodragons felt horribly disconected from the Mass Effect Identity.
-darker Fatality amanimations when fighting Banshees.
-Aria: was overdone in 2. Worse in 3.
Good
-Further expanded character customization
-Weapon choice/Mods
-Squad 1 button detonations
-Liara, Tali, Garrus and the Prothean
-Most of the loyalty missions
-Liz Traynor
Bad
-Follow the child missions
-constantly reffering to shepard as a legend. It was like Bioware wished they were making Halo
-The Winter Soilder. WTF. Atleast resurect Kaiden/Ashley or have Mirranda fill that role.
-locking the games best origional character behind DLC
-Edi, and James Vega
- increased reliance on fantasy tropes. Banshees/Brutes and robodragons felt horribly disconected from the Mass Effect Identity.
-darker Fatality amanimations when fighting Banshees.
-Aria: was overdone in 2. Worse in 3.
EmCeeGramr
Member
I am still in disbelief 5 years later at how they had this big "and now say goodbye to everybody" sequence on Earth and decided there needed to be turret sequences against zombies sprinkled in.
Surrounded by British red phone booths in the year of our lord 2186. You know, just to make sure that players knew we were in London, England.
Focus tester: This part is boooooooring.
Probably the reason they had turret sequences at all. Or maybe one of the designers was an old school Medal of Honor fan *shurgs*
Orochinagis
Member
Awww, no subs =(
I just read about leviathan and it's crazy that's DLC. It fills a really important part of the story. Just crazy.
I think Mass Effect 3 has some really cool moments, highlight from me being the Geth stuff but, as a whole, it fails more than it nails. I still really enjoyed the game but yeah, I wonder what could've been if they had be given more time and had the original writer.
I think Mass Effect 3 has some really cool moments, highlight from me being the Geth stuff but, as a whole, it fails more than it nails. I still really enjoyed the game but yeah, I wonder what could've been if they had be given more time and had the original writer.
Vince DiCola
Member
He really makes some excellent videos, his Halo retrospective series is pretty fantastic too
Stilton Disco
Member
Leviathan was DLC because it was made up after the fact to try and shoe horn in some justification for the stupid 'Machines wiping out all life in the galaxy to prevent organic's building machines that would wipe out all organic life in the galaxy'.
It kind of just further undermined it though, since the Leviathans had enslaved all organic life in the galaxy during their era with their psychic powers, powers which synthetics were immune to, and thus were less inevitably destined to destroy organic's, and more just quite reasonably rebeling against the giant mind controlling fascist space squids that had enslaved everyone and turned all organic's into meat puppets.
You also still couldn't point out that you'd proven at least once that organic and synthetic could coexist peacefully with EDI, potentially twice in far more dramatic fashion if you'd made peace with the Geth, even being able to get them and the Quarians to reunite if you put the effort in.
And this is still the biggest flaw with so much of ME3. It's just badly thought out, rushed, full of plot holes, and deeply, deeply unsatisfying.
I mean I loved bits of it, Tuchanka and Rannoch particularly, but by and large it's just a bit shit and so very dumb feeling, and this video does a great job of exploring how and why that is.
aussiedude08
Member
Glad he got it finished before Andromeda. Really enjoyed the first 2 videos.
Hope he does it for more games later, He puts a huge amount of research into his videos.
Hope he does it for more games later, He puts a huge amount of research into his videos.
What a disappointment of a game. It was here that it was made obvious that BioWare's blunder with Dragon Age II wasn't an exception but rather the beginning of a clear pattern moving forward.
Well put. You see a lot of people brush away the criticism for Mass Effect 3 by isolating it to the infamous ending.
Well put. You see a lot of people brush away the criticism for Mass Effect 3 by isolating it to the infamous ending.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
As a Londoner, I can tell you that red phone booths will never go away
I was bothered by how big they were in the game, though.
Finally watched the other 2 videos (ME1 & 2) and I have to say, I'm impressed. Not only at the research and depth, but how he was able to articulate problems I've had with all 3 games and how each of them is missing something from the others.
I particularly like how in depth he goes in the ME2 video on the combat differences between 1 and 2. Often on GAF and elsewhere I've had discussions about it, especially with people who like to put down ME1's combat without taking into account all the stuff he goes into like level design, power and control over your own and ally abilities, and even enemy design and sense of danger and challenge. And it's refreshing to see someone take all of that into account, and extrapolate it to every facet in the game: sound, story, characters, visuals, etc, never forgetting the context, which is crucial. I didn't agree with 100% of the thing he said, but he makes a great case for every opinion he has. He also doesn't complain about ME2's screen red jelly nearly enough as he should have
Very good.
I particularly like how in depth he goes in the ME2 video on the combat differences between 1 and 2. Often on GAF and elsewhere I've had discussions about it, especially with people who like to put down ME1's combat without taking into account all the stuff he goes into like level design, power and control over your own and ally abilities, and even enemy design and sense of danger and challenge. And it's refreshing to see someone take all of that into account, and extrapolate it to every facet in the game: sound, story, characters, visuals, etc, never forgetting the context, which is crucial. I didn't agree with 100% of the thing he said, but he makes a great case for every opinion he has. He also doesn't complain about ME2's screen red jelly nearly enough as he should have
Very good.
theCalamity
Member
That explanation for the Reapers still boggles me. Machines are sent to destroy advanced civilizations to prevent the advanced civilizations from being destroyed by machines. It's an idea that is so incredibly stupid that it's hard to see how it got past anyone at Bioware.
That's why I still didn't like the Extended Cut. It's not addressing that issue. I've never seen a theme so thoroughly undermined by the story.The game says that synthetics will always rebel, but you can make peace with synthetics. You even have one as a squadmate. They elevated this theme at the last minute and the story suffers. They had a perfectly fine theme running throughout the series: strength through diversity. We can overcome anything if we work together. We spend all of ME3 rallying the species together to take on the Reapers. The ending should have been an extension of that theme, not organics vs synthetics.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
I want to play this and the rest of the trilogy on ps4, damn it.
While it's BC on the Xbox One I still hope we get a remaster with a reworked ending for current gen systems/PC's. Reworking the ending would also give Bioware a way to continue the series post-Shepard trilogy in the Milky Way galaxy.
Tranqueris
Banned
Was it worse though? If I remember the original ending, it was basically here make your choice and oh no, the Normandy crash landed somewhere! Then credits.
Oh wow. They had planned some kind of epilogue via DLC? I tuned out after the game came out and just thought it was some weird decision to have them crash land.
Buy DLC to continue The Legend!
Orochinagis
Member
I hope you like Slideshows.
And the war assets to be nerfed not one or twice but four times was hilarious.
Nah, it was for the upcoming DLC (Omega, Citadel, ETC) which didnt alter the Ending anyway.
EmCeeGramr
Member
I do remember the Extended Cut did also change some really funny things that were definitely noticed on forums but were mostly overlooked, like changing unconscious Shepard's ascent up to the top to a physical platform rather than a glowing light platform, and the hilarious part I could never stop laughing at where the Normandy is racing away from the energy wave, and Joker turns around to look at it while rapidly mashing buttons.
Joker turns around. To look at it. Joker is seated at the front of a 500 foot long spaceship, not a sedan with a rear window. He's looking at the bridge.
I was actually tickled that they fixed that.
(Other things: the explosions of the mass relays were toned down significantly and they were shown being repaired afterward because of all the apocalyptic implications people noted of the original ending, if you picked Destroy with a high score then your LI will hesitate putting your name on a memorial wall, they actually explain why the Normandy was fleeing the Sol system)
Oh, and a deleted scene for the game revealed as part of one of Geoff Keighley's Last Hours things showed that (possibly if you had a low readiness?) the squadmates you brought with you on the final mission would get killed by Harbinger's laser during the run.
Joker turns around. To look at it. Joker is seated at the front of a 500 foot long spaceship, not a sedan with a rear window. He's looking at the bridge.
I was actually tickled that they fixed that.
(Other things: the explosions of the mass relays were toned down significantly and they were shown being repaired afterward because of all the apocalyptic implications people noted of the original ending, if you picked Destroy with a high score then your LI will hesitate putting your name on a memorial wall, they actually explain why the Normandy was fleeing the Sol system)
Oh, and a deleted scene for the game revealed as part of one of Geoff Keighley's Last Hours things showed that (possibly if you had a low readiness?) the squadmates you brought with you on the final mission would get killed by Harbinger's laser during the run.
APZonerunner
Member
I don't know if this is what you were getting at as it was listed alongside other things that were added, but your phrasing makes me unsure if you know - This is in the extended cut. It got overshadowed by the fact they also added a 'goodbye' scene where the Normandy picks your squadmates up with a high readiness - that was the thing people talked about... and it's actually quite difficult to get, you really have to mainline the save and either use the default or have some very poor choices in ME1/2 - but with a low readiness they get killed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbVZq-hHVmU
There's a lot about this addition I think is really effective, particularly what it says about Shepard's character that he just carries on. It's a shame the threshold to get it was set so low (a recurring problem in ME, I think: they're scared to let people accept heavy negative consequences.)
EmCeeGramr
Member
Oh was it added back in as part of the Extended Cut? I didn't know or forgot that.
I agree with all of this. I think the ME trilogy is about as good as anyone could have hoped for, minus the lazy "pick an ending" route they went with, likely to appease casual fans. Once the extended cut DLC was added, I was satisfied, but I get what you mean... ME1 and ME2 left me feeling emotional and wanting more, ME3 made me feel disappointed, like I was promised a new car for my birthday and it turned out to be an old Geo Metro.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Damn, he just got this out in time.
I wish there'd been a bit more exposition on the 'sudden return' of the synths vs organics, and the ability to argue more (even if unsuccessfully) with the starchild on whether or not we had moved past needing the reapers to make sure organic life wasn't wiped out entirely....
But I can understand why he didn't. He does touch on the grindy nature of the ME3 multi, which I did think was a damn shame.
And TBH, any 'logical' retort is just that synthetics will just get more advanced in the future, so you as Shepard can't definitively say there won't be a 'wooopsie daisy' in the future that still leads to the singularity that the reapers are preventing.
Still, back in the day, I wasn't aware that ME3 was rushed as well, though not to the degree that DA2 was. That does explain a few things.
I wish there'd been a bit more exposition on the 'sudden return' of the synths vs organics, and the ability to argue more (even if unsuccessfully) with the starchild on whether or not we had moved past needing the reapers to make sure organic life wasn't wiped out entirely....
But I can understand why he didn't. He does touch on the grindy nature of the ME3 multi, which I did think was a damn shame.
And TBH, any 'logical' retort is just that synthetics will just get more advanced in the future, so you as Shepard can't definitively say there won't be a 'wooopsie daisy' in the future that still leads to the singularity that the reapers are preventing.
Still, back in the day, I wasn't aware that ME3 was rushed as well, though not to the degree that DA2 was. That does explain a few things.
Great vid. I never knew Bioware was constrained for time in a similar situation like DA2.
It's actually kind of a miracle how much good came from ME3.
I've also never tried the extended stuff. They actually added a goodbye scene where the Normandy comes and gets the crew right before you head into the giant beam of light? Crazy!
It's actually kind of a miracle how much good came from ME3.
I've also never tried the extended stuff. They actually added a goodbye scene where the Normandy comes and gets the crew right before you head into the giant beam of light? Crazy!
Yep. That DLC screen made me want to throw down my controller in disgust but I didn't want to buy a new one.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Thinking of how it's been 5 years since Mass Effect 3, remember how it was debated that if BioWare ever did change the ending, it would create a massive precedent that every developer would follow, thus ruining games as art forever?
Let alone the implication that every ending caused the Mass Relay's to explode thereby destroying every single known solar system in the galaxy which meant you killed everyone. Very sloppy writing in general.
It's a losing debate for anyone defending the ending. Pulling a Dues ex machina is not artistic let alone as art it belongs not only to the fans just as much as the creators. It's also a consumer product so they can't just dismiss the negative feedback either.