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Original Ghost in the Shell director Mamoru Oshii defends ScarJo playing Major

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BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
The problem with the whole discussion still is, that Ghost in the Shell is a not a good movie to have it in the first place. The whole idea of the Ghost in Shell universe is, that the shell (body) does not matter anymore, it does not even define you as a human anymore. The whole anime was pretty much about this.

For the major her body is something like a puppet, that why she even uses the standard model without personality modifications. Neither Race nor Gender matter, because the body has become so unimportant. In SAC Batou even suggest that she should use a male model next time.

When the whole "it's a cyborg so the race doesn't matter" concept comes up, I totally get it. I think it makes a lot of sense for this particular fictional universe.

But on some level it brings to mind the whole "It's not an underage character because it's actually a 1000 year old demon" excuse.

In canon you have a very good reason to allow it. Outside of canon? I see a lot of real world (yes, political, sorry Oshii) reasons why people would want to select certain ethnicities. And I think that's what people really want to discuss in topics like these. Not whether or not the canon gives a great excuse to allow it.
 

KonradLaw

Member
He is right that it is about politics, he is wrong that art should not be political. And he himself should know this. He is an anime director. He is a veteran in the industry. Anime would not exist if art were not political. The entire culture that built the industry of manga and anime in Japan was born out of the desire of the younger generation post-war to express their views against the mainstream and to go against the wave of the older conservative entertainment medium. To this day it remains as such. Hayao Miyazaki's last film was about the tragedy of how the art of engineering can become a weapon of war seen through the lens of Japan entering the Second World War. Isao Takahata's last film was a modern feminist interpretation of the classic Japanese story of the Bamboo Cutter's Daughter. Art is strongest when it is most political.

I don't agree with that. And Oshi is good example, as he always focused more on philosophical themes than political ones.

That said I do agree politcs can add a lot to fictional work. But in this case? I don't see it. All the politics are limited to movie's production. Casting asian actress would be meaningless politics-wise to the movie itself. Asian living in asia has no political message.
Ironically casting ScarJo is what opened up a chance for political themes. Of course looking at how multinational the cast is, as well as removing mention of Motoko Kusanagi it's likely that the movie won't use that chance. But if they kept the name, have the whole cast be asian and then have japanese main character bneing installed in perfect cyborg body, which turned out to be white female...that would actually be pretty interesting political and social commentary if done properly. Altough then the question is if western director is the one who should be raising those issues on film.
 
Eh not really, at the end of the day GITS belongs to Shirow.
But it's Oshii's movie that's being adapted, it's his version and his material that's not only difinitive, but the one that's laying the groundwork for this adaptation. And like was said previously, he has a better understanding of the material than everyone else, including the films detractors. Because while he may not have created the series, he created the defining part of it.
 

duckroll

Member
I don't agree with that. And Oshi is good example, as he always focused more on philosophical themes than political ones.

Wrong. Oshii's best work are his political ones. His work on Patlabor is very political with regards to domestic terrorism and powers/oversight on police. His best screenplay ever is Jin-Roh which is one of the most political anime thrillers out there. Maybe you should know what you're talking about? Oshii is very good at expressing himself both politically and philosophically. He just chooses whatever is convenient to take a side or make a point. You shouldn't be deceived by his hypocrisy, just like you shouldn't be deceived by your mistaken defense of Mel Gibson not being a racist. :p

But it's Oshii's movie that's being adapted, it's his version and his material that's not only difinitive, but the one that's laying the groundwork for this adaptation. And like was said previously, he has a better understanding of the material than everyone else, including the films detractors. Because while he may not have created the series, he created the defining part of it.

It's not though. The movie is every bit as much Stand Alone Complex and 2nd GIG as it is Ghost in the Shell and Innocence. It takes elements from everything. The main antagonist and part of the backbone of the Hollywood plot is from 2nd GIG, something Oshii had no part in.
 

Derwind

Member
Art is a medium in which the individual perspective gives it meaning. So by its very nature, only through your own perspective and the lens from which you view it can make Art political.

Simply suggesting that Hollywood has a visibility issue in its casting and that the role of a character with Asian decent would be better served by being played by an Asian actor or actress is not really all that political to me.
 
It's not though. The movie is every bit as much Stand Alone Complex and 2nd GIG as it is Ghost in the Shell and Innocence. It takes elements from everything. The main antagonist and part of the backbone of the Hollywood plot is from 2nd GIG, something Oshii had no part in.
Forgive me then for implying the film is a 1:1 adaptation, but I don't really think that changes just how influential Oshii's work was in all post GiTS material, and considering all of those would be drawing from that film, it all would still come back to Oshii would it not?
 

KonradLaw

Member
t. You shouldn't be deceived by his hypocrisy


.
I fail too see a hypocrisy here. He's a creator. He cares about the work itself. There's nothing political about casting asian in movie taking place in Japan. All politics involving GITS adaptation are completely meaningless to the movie itself. So it's pretty hard to imagine why Oshi or any creator in Japan would give a damn about american political issues. Unless somebody would cast asian american in the role, which I guess could be offensive to some Japanese in the "americans think all asians are interchangable" way
 

duckroll

Member
Forgive me then for implying the film is a 1:1 adaptation, but I don't really think that changes just how influential Oshii's work was in all post GiTS material, and considering all of those would be drawing from that film, it all would still come back to Oshii would it not?

You said the movie is an adaptation of Oshii's movie. I'm just pointing out it is not.
 

Sölf

Member
I mean, I definitly agree with his first quote, mainly because I said so myself earlier. I do see the problem people have, but, well, yeah~
 

RinsFury

Member
"Justice warriors?"

Y'all really are in hiding.

No doubt a burner account used to show off to the cockroaches on voat and the donald.



I am still baffled at how JUSTICE became a bad word.

Wanting to see more inclusivity in Hollywood leads and being uncomfortable with a film based on a japanese franchise with heavily asian inspired art and themes being whitewashed into yet another white savior movie apparently makes one a 'SJW'. Somehow this is a bad thing.
 

DVCY201

Member
I like Oshii's works, but what the fuck is this nonsense that art should not be political? Did he just forget about the basis for Jin-Roh and whatnot?

Ugh, ScarJo can be cast in whatever she wants. I can still criticize that I think she's ill-fitted for the role, nevermind the movie probably losing all the subtext behind GitS. I'd be more encouraged by Kenji Kamiyama whose still active in the industry and made GitS great with SAC
 
ScarJo has always been a very good choice for the live action movie. I am more worry about the slow action and cheap FX.

And, who cares what the anime director think. What does Masamune Shirow think about it?
 
ScarJo has always been a very good choice for the live action movie. I am more worry about the slow action and cheap FX.

And, who cares what the anime director think. What does Masamune Shirow think about it?

"Does she have a lesbian orgy? Are her nipples fully erect? Is there a black horse nearby?"
 

Riposte

Member
Exactly.

It doesn't matter what Japanese people think anyways, considering the people that actually feel the consequences of cssting decisions like this are Asian-Americans.

Doesn't this distance exist in both directions? Why are Asian-Americans, born and raised in America, setting the rules for imported Japanese (pop) cultural artifacts they are not directly related with (and, in this case, take priority over individuals actually directly related)? Movie casting opportunities are one thing, as they may relate to a trend of reduced job opportunities and visibility of Asian-American actors (not necessarily Japanese-American) within American pop culture, but when there's controversy over white people wearing kimonos/yukata or similar, something that's said to be generally seen as neutral to positive in Japan, I am at a loss on what authority they can criticize the export (appropriation) of that culture's elements.


The whole matter of art and politics is obscured by the fact the word "politics" can mean several things at once (moreover, people treat "politics" as if it's the fundamental force of the universe that supersedes all interpretation of stimuli, when it's really an abstract built on top of a several layers of increasingly more fundamental aspects of human existence: philosophy, psychology, etc).

His statement about politics doesn't necessarily mean that art must be without political interpretation or motive (an audience merely needs to interpret it that way), but rather it could mean the very process of administrating politics shouldn't get in the way of expressing/creating something, or perhaps the process of having your politics dominate through competing within channels of propaganda (which all art qualifies as) may be seen a lesser affair compared to the act of creating art or appreciating its aesthetic value (which all art has).
 
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You have been warned.


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The director went on to point out how a number of actors in the past have played characters of different ethnic groups without issue. "In the movies, John Wayne can play Genghis Khan, and Omar Sharif, an Arab, can play Doctor Zhivago, a Slav. It's all just cinematic conventions," he explained. "If that's not allowed, then Darth Vader probably shouldn't speak English, either. I believe having Scarlett play Motoko was the best possible casting for this movie. I can only sense a political motive from the people opposing it, and I believe artistic expression must be free from politics."
Goddamn it Oshii. :(
 

RudiJay

Neo Member
I honestly disagree with people who genuinely seem to think that a white lead is a negative with the film. I completely agree that it's a huge shame that yet another blockbuster fails to feature any Asian lead, and of course as the source material is Asian a lot of people assumed it would, but I think it's unfair to put the blame for something that is the fault of Hollywood on the creators of this one film.

The fact of the matter is that this film would never have been made unless it had a marketable star, and there are basically little to no Asian actresses who can play the Major and also fit that bill. The actress from Pacific Rim who I can't put a name to? Lucy Liu is getting on now too. Of course the only way for the industry to fix this is to cast unknowns in successful films. Both recent Star Wars films have done this with John Boyega, Oscar Isaac, Riz Ahmed, Diego Luna and Donnie Yen, but Ghost in the Shell is hardly Star Wars. Honestly, the film will probably flop even with a marketable lead, but I won't fault filmmakers for trying to pay their bills.

Diversity in casting should be celebrated and encouraged, but casting a white person shouldn't be a sin.
 

M3d10n

Member
"Even if her original body (presuming such a thing existed) were a Japanese one, that would still apply."
iseewhatyoudidthere.jpg

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Yo. I did expect that scene to be in the movie, since they did say it draws from the
Kuze story arc
, but still.
 

Calabi

Member
Major is a cyborg. She's in a robotic body with an assumed name, why should her race matter when she can be anyone of any race? Meaning she could also easily be ScarJo if she wanted to be. So please tell me, how is he wrong?

Why did she choose to be western, is she ashamed of being asian. I dont understand this part. How do they justify this in the movie?

There's already some problems in asia of them changing their appearance to look more western, eye surgery and things like that. So she's just one of those many, whom can luckily change her complete appearance to the so called pinnacle of looks. It sounds a bit screwed up to me.

I dont know maybe they have some other justification for it, but it seems like there digging a hole deeper with this.
 

nightside

Member
there definitely needs to be a push for more asian and brown lead actors in hollywood.

considering the studio exec issue its probably gonna have to happen through good performances in indie and smaller flicks. rather than getting shots in these big ones.

what do people here think of Roza Salazar, a latino actress, being cast in Battle Angel Alita?

Well, we don't really know if she's of Japanese descent even if her "Martian name " suggests so. But I think she really fits with the face traits of the character. I like the choice.
 
His statement about politics doesn't necessarily mean that art must be without political interpretation or motive (an audience merely needs to interpret it that way), but rather it could mean the very process of administrating politics shouldn't get in the way of expressing/creating something, or perhaps the process of having your politics dominate through competing within channels of propaganda (which all art qualifies as) may be seen a lesser affair compared to the act of creating art or appreciating its aesthetic value (which all art has).
This is very much what I interpreted his statement to mean, considering his past work almost unilaterally contained strong social themes themes relevant to a modern climate, so it's not like he's remotely one to shy away from deliberate political statements in his work.

I think some may be reading too much into the specific wording of a non-native English speaker and mistakenly conflating his opinion with the stock opinions 14 year old gamefaqs posters.

It's distressing to think the goal post of this discussion has moved so far that some people can so readily marginalize his opinion on the matter.
 
It's not though. The movie is every bit as much Stand Alone Complex and 2nd GIG as it is Ghost in the Shell and Innocence. It takes elements from everything. The main antagonist and part of the backbone of the Hollywood plot is from 2nd GIG, something Oshii had no part in.

I'm not interested in defending the Hollywood film or anything, but I do want to point out that Oshii actually did have a part in 2nd Gig, as he is credited for story concept on that season.
 

Whompa02

Member
This is why the white washing for this movie claims were so ludicrous...hell I knew it, then again I actually watched/read GITS instead of bitched on Twitter.
 
It's a matter of representation. Mamoru Oshii is Japanese, and he's used to living in a country where he sees Japanese people on screens and billboards day in and day out. He doesn't care if the Hollywood adaptation of his work stars a white actress...racial politics are foreign to him.

Asian Americans are simply sick of being invisible in the media. There are only so few opportunities to see us represented on screen, and an adaptation of an Asian media property is one of these few opportunities. Iron Fist, where the subject material highly borrowed from Asian mysticism and martial arts, was another opportunity. We're not going to kid ourselves and look for an Asian star in the next mainstream romantic comedy or action movie, when we don't even have B list stars yet...these rare opportunities will have to do. So when we see these roles go to white actors, it stings.

Edit: For the record, having watched the original GITS, I totally agree that Motoko could have been any race and claims of 'whitewashing' are a little out there. It's just another lost opportunity to cast an Asian American actor, when there are already so few opportunities as is.
 

Servbot24

Banned
I guess it depends how you define politics, but I mean it's pretty obvious Scarlet was chosen for the sake of sales rather than making an artistic statement.
 

petran79

Banned
Edit: For the record, having watched the original GITS, I totally agree that Motoko could have been any race and claims of 'whitewashing' are a little out there. It's just another lost opportunity to cast an Asian American actor, when there are already so few opportunities as is.

I wouldnt mind Deunan Knute being played by an Asian actress
 

Zoe

Member
I don't want to turn this into a spoiler discussion, but there's something I saw a while back with regards to production photos that might have a clue to that.
Seems at some point she visits a grave with Kusanagi's name. In the film she doesn't have a Japanese name, so I'm leaning on some conspiracy where they changed her body and identity, and wiped her past from her after some shit went down.

It does appear that way, especially
with Kaori Momoi playing her mother.

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The writers must think they're so clever, but
this is going to turn things into an even bigger shit show than it already is. It's one thing to whitewash the role, it's another for the character to literally turn white during the movie.
 

Kreed

Member
They can get an entire island of Japan to approve of Scarlett Johanson casting, it still wouldn't address the issue being the role was not presented to an Asian actress in Hollywood

^This. When I see threads like this or threads where Japan reacts to Hollywood White washing, the "representatives" in the OPs never address the main issue of the US media avoiding hiring Asian actors in lead roles vs just presenting "X film" on it's own and divorced completely from the overall issue, in addition to the "representatives" having a lack of understanding of US social issues in general and the difficulties non white US actors have in getting lead roles.
 
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