"To me, you sound like "A woman cannot be proud or her natural attractiveness, or flaunt her attractiveness as a weapon. That is always male gaze. Women must be covered'".
Again, this is a colossal misrepresentation of the post.
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The argument that sex, (in most cases sexism) sells games is inherently flawed
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
- Start date
"To me, you sound like "A woman cannot be proud or her natural attractiveness, or flaunt her attractiveness as a weapon. That is always male gaze. Women must be covered'".
Again, this is a colossal misrepresentation of the post.
I am using Bayonetta as an example because people always put as a holy grail of how to be sexy without being objectified. And I think this is pure bullshit.
Bayonetta is a good application of sex appeal in a game in the same way Birdetta is a good trans character.
I can see how people would put her in a pedestal, but that is because everyone else is way worst. Or does not exist.
How the character is written and what she does is pretty good.
EVERYTHING ELSE, including HOW she does it ans SPECIALY how the camera frames it, is pretty objectified
"Sex sells" doesn't mean people are going "wow look at the boobs in this game cover guess I'm gonna buy it"
"Sex sells" means that an imprint is made in your mind with the initial pitch of the game using the impact of sexual images, and months later a second ad for the game (even with no sex) is going to resonate subsconciously because that imprint that you don't even necessarily associate with sex anymore was placed there in advance by the marketers.
I.e. sex sells = stay in the consumer conscience
"Sex sells" means that an imprint is made in your mind with the initial pitch of the game using the impact of sexual images, and months later a second ad for the game (even with no sex) is going to resonate subsconciously because that imprint that you don't even necessarily associate with sex anymore was placed there in advance by the marketers.
I.e. sex sells = stay in the consumer conscience
It goes in circles because we have folks mis-attributing the bolded to people ITT and then disingenious arguing from that position.
http://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/
No, there isn't. Whose culture? American/British? Please spare me your ethnocentric nonsense. To clarify, that sort of SHIT is why the Academy gives endless praise to "intelligent" films about quirky geniuses but shuns excellent movies like Straight Outta Compton, or why white-produced/directed Slumdog Millionaire got endless praise from Hollywood and Western audiences who entirely ignore actual Indian productions. Or people who look down their noses at Native American, African and Latino works that don't conform to your bullshit "universal" standards.
For better or worst
edit :
Ok .. and ?
depths20XX
Member
Doesn't Bayonetta own her sexuality though? To me it fits her personality. I think it's pretty awesome playing a character in charge of their sexuality who also kicks ass. How is she objectified? Not to mention the whole game feels very tongue in cheek. The whole game is over the top and I love it for that.
No. If she owned her sexuality the camera would not eat at every chance it gets. It would have ways that bayonetta does not allow it.
She is not in charge of her sexuality. The camera is.
Also she does not choose to become naked, that is just how her powers work.
Yes the game is very tongue in cheek and over the top and it has very fun gameplay.
How do you explain the Japanese visual novel scene though? I don't think people are playing them for their s DEEP AND REALISTIC /s relationships.
EventHorizon
Member
I provided just as much citation as the claim that gamers were offended by sex in games. I am however totally confident that people will judge my claim correct by their own experiences.
You and others also continue to misrepresent the case being made in order to try to score points. Nobody is saying sex is a prerequisite for great sales. In fact the better the game is the less important sex becomes. However most games are not great. They don't have a great story or gameplay. For them sex absolutely would get the game more attention than it ordinarily would. A game like Lollipop Chainsaw greatly benefited by its attractive lead character and sexy theme. Just think of all the free ads the game gets from cosplay and people sharing those photos.
The idea that video games are "50% women" is simplistic and doesn't address the fact that women are not playing the types of games that some people here want changed to cater to women. It also explains why certain genres cater almost exclusively to men, since men are near 100% of those who buy it.
This is the part where someone claims its a self fulfilling prophecy without any proof and that devs have a responsibility to "break the cycle", again without any proof they haven't already tried unsuccessfully to broader their games' market share. We've been through this a few times ITT.
Cultural differences. There's a reason that the genre doesn't have wide appeal. And speaking specifically about marketing games from Asian markets, we're often asked to *downplay* problematic sexuality in the marketing assets... depending on the target market and metrics.
But we also take steps to be inclusive in the marketing and design on games, especially over the past two or three years. Just look at any coop trailer that features a team of players- most likely one will be a woman and the others will be racially diverse men.
Animal crossing is either a City Building, a Sandbox or a Survival Roguelike (you know it is true).
It has BY FAR more women than men playing by nintendo numbers.
And that is of course ignoring the fact that saying that "this games need objectification because men will most likely like it" is not a good argument in favor of men
The dialogue and the camera angles are both intentionally ridiculous. They way sexuality is handled in the game has no subtlety and good taste. You're complaining about a corny joke.
I'm a little unclear what your wording means, but I think we actually agree here. I came into this thread saying we need more games like Splatoon (and Animal Crossing) to expand the market... not slapping "female-friendly" characters into an otherwise unchanged shooter like Halo or CoD and assume that women will go out in droves to buy it.
I like how you take birdeta seriously.
How awesome is the state of female sexuality in games to be that the maximum opus is a joke on objetification
depths20XX
Member
Was there a point in the story where she said she hates using her powers because they cause her to be naked? She owns that shit. The camera just serves to support the whole over the top atmosphere the game creates. It certainly doesn't own her.
MindGamingMantis
Banned
Dead or Alive Xtreme 3?
Half the reason I wanted Bayonetta was because she was sexy as fuck and whooping ass.
Half the reason I wanted Bayonetta was because she was sexy as fuck and whooping ass.
Well the jokes on them, too, if they think that.
themaskedndi
Member
I get that plenty of people are buying these games because of sexy characters, but they do have appeal beyond that, especially visual novels. I bought DOA Xtreme because it had dress-up (including lots of options beyond skimpy bikinis), friendship mechanics, and it was a pretty decent volleyball game. Volleyball's the only sport I ever played, and there aren't many options for volleyball games. I like visual novels because they're an interesting storytelling medium. I don't think something like Umineko would work without the music and sound effects; Steins;Gate is one of the best time travel stories I've ever experienced, and I don't think it'd work as well if it were a standard novel.
You can sell virtually any game without using sex, even games that aren't offering much else. I once wrote a piece on Sakura Spirit that was built around Junji Ito's "The Enigma of Amigara Fault." You can create appealing characters that entice people to create fan art without ever objectifying the characters in game.
If people genuinely like designs like Quiet, Velvet, and Cindy, I wish they'd try to defend them on their own merits instead of pretending that these kinds of designs are an essential selling point.
It has been some years that I played 2 and way more than that for the first one and the quotes aren't exactly memorable but I don't remember her mentioning that she becomes naked AT ALL
She does her poses (THE poses) to the camera and to the camera alone. She does not poses to other characters in any way even CLOSE to what she does to the camera. The camera is a jealous owner of her sexuality
Yeah this thread has been a confusing juxtaposition of denial of sex in anime (which is what annoys me) and heavy handed attack on sex in games. Usually the two don't go together so I find it confusing.
And no you haven't come across as aggressive. I'm just trying to make clear where I was coming from, so perhaps it was a bit strident. It wasn't a response to your tone.
EventHorizon
Member
This is a great point that always gets ignored in these types of discussions. Men and women have different tastes in games. If a publishers is going to create a game in a genre that is predominantly male, then they are going to tailor their game and marketing to men. Criticizing that would be like criticizing Maybelline cosmetics for focusing on women.
Her "costume" is her hair so that technically means she's not wearing clothing so yea.
You have it backwards. She is the jealous owner of that camera, and the viewers watching. . She knows you're watching her do what she does, and she's having fun the whole time. The player's along for the ride.
depths20XX
Member
Hmm, I get what you're saying with the camera but we just disagree. I see it as comedic over the top sexuality and you find it problematic because it owns her.
Also more OT I don't think it's inherently flawed just because you don't need too many games starring as humans or humanoid characters who are unattractive.
You might not necessarily ever be attracted to them (or any video game character) in a sexual manner, but they are designed to be visually appealing in some way. Women are usually the "ideal" figure, hair manages to stay good even after multiple near deaths/kindappings/brawls/whatever, firm butts and lips, sparkling eyes you can see into, whatever.
Guys might be able to get away with being :ugly" but more often than not are ruggedly handsome and usually have tons of muscles or are big in general (or both). Penis size and sexual performance always implied to be respectable if not amazing, always implied that if they want *insert romantic option here* they could totally get them (and will on a following playthrough).
Even not human characters are usually designed with "cool" or "cute" in mind, those traits just happen to also strongly correlate with sexual attractiveness when it comes to a lot of videogame characters. It's the other stuff that's so tropey and tacked on so often that weighs a lot of stuff down, imo..Make them be characters you'd actually see irl (or the personalities of them) not total by the book snoozefests or insults.
You might not necessarily ever be attracted to them (or any video game character) in a sexual manner, but they are designed to be visually appealing in some way. Women are usually the "ideal" figure, hair manages to stay good even after multiple near deaths/kindappings/brawls/whatever, firm butts and lips, sparkling eyes you can see into, whatever.
Guys might be able to get away with being :ugly" but more often than not are ruggedly handsome and usually have tons of muscles or are big in general (or both). Penis size and sexual performance always implied to be respectable if not amazing, always implied that if they want *insert romantic option here* they could totally get them (and will on a following playthrough).
Even not human characters are usually designed with "cool" or "cute" in mind, those traits just happen to also strongly correlate with sexual attractiveness when it comes to a lot of videogame characters. It's the other stuff that's so tropey and tacked on so often that weighs a lot of stuff down, imo..Make them be characters you'd actually see irl (or the personalities of them) not total by the book snoozefests or insults.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Same thing as the YA industry really, except that is more niche.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I disagree mate- To say, that sexually attractive characters are sexualized, does not mean that we cannot discuss the difference between Ahoy and Quiet. Those two things don't exclude one another. I am merely saying, that it was a conscious decision to have Ahoy be designed the way she was with that in mind that her likeability went up by a significant margin, on the knowing of the designers, that people would want to have sex with their character.
It's easier to empathize with attractive people. It's more desired to be around attractive people. We see attractive people as more trustworthy. We are incredible and disproportionally stigmatizing against unattractive people.
"Sex Sells" is a term that comes about in the early days of advertisment. It starts with the sales of goods, mass produced items and stores. You have pin-up girls who cover up anything you can imagine. "Why does it have to be a beautiful woman?" "Because sex sells". It might not sell to you and me, but it does sell. It might not sell more than other factors, and not all of the time but it does ng stereotypes.
My argument is not to reduce softcore porn-like rauchy depictions like Quiet to the level of Ahoy- I can see there is a difference in the dress code between Ahoy and Quiet. Of course. I can see they are not at the exact place on the spectrum. You won't hear any word games for me. I am merely saying; It's a disservice to everyone to also not acknowledge the conscious design and sexualization of fictional characters just because they're not half naked.
All the same, they spell bind us with a mirage, fuel our sense of inadequacy and perpetuates the sense of self loathing in people. For how many men and women this is the case, I do not know. I don't think any study has been done, that can give us a real clear insight into the actual effects. Not just because such a study is difficult to do all of itelf, but also because, as has been pointed out by others here on GAF; Video Gaming represents only one venue of this sexualization. In music, TV, movies- It's everywhere. To see a unattractive famous person is rare compared to the beautiful attractive celebrities.
The point I'd want to stress is that if we are going to be honest with ourselves that the things we like to engage in in pop culture (like video games) foster self-hatred and a sense of people feeling bad about themselves. What can we do about it? Can you make video games with video game stories where the character goes from being a "loser" to being more? And can it be done in a nuanced way, even if it's sci fi, or fantasy or whatever, that someone can relate to and feel inspired?
Can you have characters who are attractive and who are sexualized but who also exhibit the physical and psychological attributes of avatars that foster a good self image?
If we're not going to dig deeper in Quiets outfit, then we rob ourselves of trying to figure out the deeper questions. Why does unhealthy body images even work against us in the first play? Deeper than the explanation that we're bombarded with it- We still know, recognize and understand that this is fictional. Where along the lines does the subliminal messaging turn toxic? And are some people more immune? You have posters here on GAF who maintain that people are oversensistive and need tough love. Is there any true to that? If there is, what is it it? If there isn't what is that? If we dig deeper than name calling, we might get to understand more where the triggers are for something to start affecting people. But measuring those constants are difficult.
How are you even going to study the actual effects when it's nearly impossible to avoid the influences of other forms of pop culture beside video games that exhibit poor body images and low self esteem.
FlutterPuffs
Member
I love my Vita but
If sex doesn't sell the Vita would have been dead 3 years ago.
If sex doesn't sell the Vita would have been dead 3 years ago.
Well, when you post things like the chart in this post it's hard not to wonder how you're not arguing from that position considering the nature of the argument.
Speaking of, the chart merely indicates that a lot of genres have massive potential for growth among the female audience. The biggest publishers actually largely agree in this regard, hence why you see, for example, Ubisoft making a HUGE push to improve their representation of women in their games, culminating in For Honor where all female characters are treated with the exact same level of respect as their male counterparts.
It's smart business planning. Don't take any steps to exclude half of the human population, and you can never lose out. Period.
This makes no sense and has very little to do with what I am saying.
I would actually argue that there is not a single seminal work in any culture that exists that ignores or throws out characterization. It is core - downright essential - to a good story. If someone goes crazy in a work of fiction there is pretty much always good reason for it - some sort of impetus, a driving force, that makes it happen. In order to sell such events to an audience, it must be believable on at least some level. That is what I'm talking about, and there is no work in existence that is exempt for this. It is simply a part of human nature. It's why the uncanny valley exists, after all - we're trained, as human beings, to be very discerning about how other humans act.
The best works should never flip the "there's no way she would ever do this" switch. They should get you invested into the events that are happening by way of the characters driving the action. A large part of what makes Straight Outta Compton work in the first place is how much they sell the motivations and subsequent actions of the characters to the viewers, like in any decent work (fiction or nonfiction). This is not a culture-specific thing, unless that culture is human culture, which is what I'm talking about here. You can't expect me to believe that there is a culture that throws out any semblance of humanity in their greatest works. It just doesn't happen.
Human stories are told for humans, by humans, with human protagonists. All I'm saying is that I want these characters to be rendered for me to their fullest extent. I want to believe in them. Cheaply sexualizing the women at the expense of any sort of characterization is not good storytelling, period. There is no wiggle-room here. There is no agency to be had in being a victim at all times. No insight to be gained from someone showing me more women being used exclusively as eye candy, or thrown into the exact same stereotype of the femme fatale ad nauseum. It is simply bad writing and I will not suffer its defense.
You can still enjoy it. Just own up to the fact that you enjoy trashy fiction. Accept it for what it is! You don't need my approval to enjoy it, after all. Why do you even care? If I don't like it, what does that really do to you? You like what you like and I like what I like.
I'm not even going to look down on you for it. I only look down on the writers for putting out what I consider to be shoddy work. And you can't convince me that it isn't shoddy, so please don't bother. I'm telling you this now. You're as likely to move my opinion on this matter as you are to break down a brick wall with your bare hands. Please save your energy.
I'm just here to vent, to make my voice heard, and to remind people that I exist. Whether or not anyone actually gets convinced by my spiels is immaterial. I just hope the positive forward trends continue. That's all I can really hope for, anyway.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Senua from Hellblade, a game about mental illness.
OMG thank you. Fasinating.Senua from Hellblade, a game about mental illness.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
:thinking emoji:
...
wait, im a woman and i like man eyecandy ... like i love it when men are not afraid to look alluring... for example, i enjoy it when men dont have to be all the way clothed from their neck to the bottom of their boots to the tips of their fingers... and if they dont have to be SUPERBUFF HEROICMANBOD just in case you may doubt how manly they are. i like it when they are as naturally appreciatable as female bodies, because there is nothing unappealing about men's figures. REALLY!
i love it when men characters can be less insecure with how they may be objectified by female gaze. love it. LOVE.
Nathan Drake holds zero appeal to me.
and i dont think i'm the only girl who thinks this way... .__.?
Finaika
Member
Holy shit!
Audioboxer
Member
None of my posts are suggesting women outright wouldn't appreciate male eye-candy. They're simply based on averages and general findings around differences between the male and female brains. This doesn't mean women do not enjoy objectively beautiful half naked, or fully naked men. Not sure if this is called the female gaze or whatever, lol, but yeah, of course, women do. Whether its hearthrobs on TV, musicians, the perfect man in a book and sure, men in games, etc. Games tend to be a far more crude display of sexuality, though, often failing to have genuinely interesting romantic writing, all that much character development and usually just end up basic writing, and straight to the attire/overt displays of sexualisation. Often leading to much more success in the male gamers, partly for reasons studied long and hard (no pun intended) in the fields of psychology. It's why I spent posts earlier in the topic speaking about why there is such a gulf in the difference of readers in the romance novel sector. Primarily because that is one field that the male brain doesn't get its instant gratification through visual stimulation, and instead needs to use hundreds of pages to build up an imagination concept, of which most men cannot be bothered doing. This is far more successful in females, and often leads onto other tropes which are more commonly appreciated in females, such as using imagination, fostering a concept of love/romance, a man's success in stature/employment/finance and leading in from that confidence, personality and nature. Basically, often a well more rounded approach to fantasising about the opposite sex, where as men often do not have the attention span for that and want instant gratification that focuses far more on the physical (naked) beauty.
So most of these snippets verge into porn, sure, but it's where most studies on visual imagery have been done. Which most games are, simply visual stimulation, very little romance/relationship building and anything of great significance other than tits and ass. Cue drum roll though..... they're often that way for a reason. Sure many game devs are just terrible writers, but they often know what they are doing when it comes to chasing the male brain(s). Heck, you could argue as many of them ARE male brains themselves, it's projection 101 to putting things in their games that titillate them, and by nature of that and laws of averages, a mass of other men too.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...2/porn-why-does-my-man-watch-is-he-sex-addict
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-tangled-wing/201008/sex-differences-insex
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/features/why-men-like-porn#1
https://www.netnanny.com/learn-center/article/165/
^ Short blurb just to add the usual disclaimer that seems to be needed before people respond with "but not me!". Most research and generalisations are not absolutes. Outliers always exist. Laws of averages are called averages for a reason.
lot more @ http://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/porn-debate
Of course, you can stray from blogs which have snippets of studies, and just go right for a huge ass study itself (from the 80s, but very relevant)
http://philipperushton.net/wp-conte...hton-buss-behavioral-brain-sciences-19891.pdf (Studies like this go a LONG way to proving why things like games and romance novels can be translated into 30 different languages and shipped to 30 different countries and consumers all still enjoy similar tropes. Male/Female brains are global, not regional. Cultures can be regional, but humans are humans wherever they are from.)
So yeah, there's a lot of science behind marketing and behavioural theories, and it's why it can be very frustrating when things are just summed up to "sexists and perverts enjoy their damn skin in our videogames!". "Sex sells" is often wrapped up in generations of study, research and investigation into the male brain, and how marketers have been able to exploit that, often for financial gain, attention, presence and at times simply to get products and services spoken about if not bought/interacted with. Think of all the "controversies" over the years involving sex/nudity/nipples/bums and yes, even penises, whenever they get shown/hinted at and so forth in mainstream life. Outrage at these IS often a form of advertisement. Hence, companies sometimes straddle that line knowing at the very least they'll be spoke about when some millions cry "how dare nudity or sex be shown! think of the children!". Which outside of a vacuum can often be quite dangerous, as it sometimes leads into poor sex education, sexual repression and overall cultural shaming that anyone dare enjoy visual stimulation or any nudity even be on show. Heck, American TV until more premium cable channels arrived was often incredibly restrictive and censoring of even a buttocks appearing on TV! However, feel free to blow away 300 bad guys with a shotgun.
That verges on religious like puritanism at times, hence that has been regurgitated even by myself a handful of times in here. As always the answer to more diversity isn't to chase after and shame some of what exists like a robe wearing Catholic ninja. The conversation at the very least should be far more open and filled with debate than that, especially when there is enough objective evidence and research done on the male brain and some of the ways it is inclined to act. Shame, othering, and forms of discipline to natural impulses are often taking a shotgun to a scalpel fight. We can attempt to discuss impulses, urges and thoughts with care and some forms of critical thinking to try and help people grow and be varied, that isn't instantly "sexist! misogynist! freak! woman hater!" and some of the other egregious remarks best saved for when there is "suitable evidence" to tar someone. That's one thing I ask, some people stop going to dial 100 from 0 every single time without thinking a bit more realistically.
We want our kids and teens to be well educated in sex and sexual expression so they don't unhealthily rely on porn, videogames, guy mags and other low-tier impulse content. I think you'll find most women want their men to be a bit more rounded than just sex on the brain. Heck, most women will have their shares of bad experiences with guys cheating on them, or guys hardly showing any romantic involvement around sex. I always pimp (har, no pun intended, again) this documentary on GAF because it's fucking ace - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/sex-in-class If we want less "problems" with young male minds in general, we need to educate better, but a large part of that isn't done by shaming and name-calling. Put it this way, the boys in that documentary, MANY of them are not engaged with and helped like they were this time around and it's why we have so many angry young males online and in the world in general, that do indeed have some shitty views on sex, women and so forth. Other times it's not so much aggressive shitty males, but males lacking in confidence, not knowing how to interact with females, and sure, ending up being virgins in their 20s/30s not necessarily by choice, but as an offshoot of that relying on porn/games/video and more for their sexual release. Throw all that into a pot and more and it's why these conversations are so complex, and at times when things like the OP are written as rigidly as they are (I'm right, you're wrong, sit down and be educated by me!) it gets many jimmies rustled.
I am not at all arguing for that position (we don't all even agree on what constitutes blatant sexism if you've been following the discussions others are having re Bayonetta). I'm merely offering clarification for why the industry is in its current state and why perhaps it persists. The disagreement here being whether buyers' innate preferences dictate game design or whether its game design that's dictating who buys the games. There are reasonable arguments on both sides although I personally lean a little more towards the former. But if the latter, that would be cool too, to broaden audiences.
To the bolded, I believe this is a hallmark of Western style of writing and seen as foreign and selfish to the writing styles of certain cultures who tend to focus on different aspects. I remember reading about this particularly in regards to the storytelling aspect of some Native Americans. I wish I knew more about this so I'll just leave it at that while gleaning the broader point that stories don't need to have characters that always behave realistically to create a compelling narrative.
As to the rest, I only cared when you took down the tone of looking down at the creators of outlandish work as if they were shit, filth that is less capable than children as you put it, which is excessive to say about someone whose head you're not in. I think someone can create seemingly trashy material that you might find off-putting but that has had effort put behind it. You can't assuredly speak to a person's capabilities just because they put out something you personally didn't enjoy. Look at Starship Troopers as a prime example of a movie that was widely panned as utter trash by people at the time who didn't understand it. Or something like House of the Dead Overkill or Shank, both thoroughly designed with deliberate low-brow, grindhouse elements that some might find offensive.
I'm not implying Quiet in MGSV had some deeper nuance, but just to be mindful of painting with broad strokes for every instance of gaming media encountered that you don't like. The rest of what you said I find agreeable and makes sense.
Sex (with respect to straight women) sells to them too. In other industries you have items advertised with beautiful women (woman want to be her) so why wouldn't that work with games either?
I only have a couple of anecdotes of women who were interested in playing the attractive female character, but I'm sure it's not some super rare thing.
In the same way male protagonists aren't neckbeards, attractive female characters aren't just beneficial for male gamers.
As for this being an issue, I'd rather devs focus more on representing attractiveness in more forms rather than deliberately making unattractive characters. I mean, that would be bad for business anyway.
I only have a couple of anecdotes of women who were interested in playing the attractive female character, but I'm sure it's not some super rare thing.
In the same way male protagonists aren't neckbeards, attractive female characters aren't just beneficial for male gamers.
As for this being an issue, I'd rather devs focus more on representing attractiveness in more forms rather than deliberately making unattractive characters. I mean, that would be bad for business anyway.
TheExecutive
Member
Came in here to post that I have never seen that argument in the title shared...
There it is though. I guess maybe you could argue that 10-13 year old boys may care about it...
There it is though. I guess maybe you could argue that 10-13 year old boys may care about it...
(Not attacking you, just using it as a point to start from).
Romance novels are a genre, not a medium.
Not liking Romance novels doesn't mean you can't ever read a book again, it just means you might have to focus on something other than romance to get your kicks.
Games is a medium, not a genre.
If an entire medium is male focused there's not exactly somewhere wider for them to go. That's why it needs a little adjusting to be more accepting.
No. Just No.
YA is a demographic, and not all YA novels are for ladies.
If you can't find YA books for guys you're not fucking looking.
For every Gallagher Girls there's an Alex Rider.
For every Nightworld there's a Heroes of Olympus.
For every Twilight there's a... okay, there might be a shortcoming when it comes to male aimed romantic vampire fiction. If you're prepared to branch into manga though there's Rosario+Vampire and a ton of monstergirl harem books which I'd say hit a similar note.
There are female focused books, and male focused books, and books that work for both. If the book you're looking at currently isn't for you, there will be other books.
If the genre you're looking at currently isn't for you, there are other genres out there.
If the entire medium is alienating a wider audience though, it has serious problems.
Attractiveness and "Sex" don't have to be the same though.
A character can be attractive (and sexy) without the game having to shout LOOKHOWSEXYTHEYARELOOKATTHEM!!! at you. That ideal doesn't have to be shoved to the forefront.
Let me borrow RM8's nurses for a moment.
These nurses are both attractive.I'll illustrate my point of view with nurses. Seems like the obvious thing to do!
In gaming culture, this is puritanical:
And this is perfectly okay, normal, and an acceptable default:
They're both attractive, and both sexy, but they give off completely different vibes.
Nurse 1 is a nurse first. She looks professional and smart.
Nurse 2 is sexy first. She looks sexy, and she wants people to think sexy things about her.
A lot of Female Characters in gaming have an awful lot of Nurse 2 in them, where the sexy part is focused on before the female character part.
Gaming could use a bit more Nurse 1, where the character is focused on before the sexy.
I like playing as female characters. I do.
But if the game does not treat the women in their games with some measure of respect then I don't want to play as them because if the game does not respect it's characters then it doesn't understand or respect my desire to play them.
Characters look better to me when the camera stops leering over them.
Take a look at Aloy.
She's able to be attractive and strong and have a bum without having all that undermined by the camera oggling it going "oooh, take a look at thiiiiiiiiis"
Because technically the camera doing that wouldn't actually change her character, but it would absolutely change my perception of her as a character. And I prefer the version where the camera isn't a dick.
Maybe guys don't notice it as much, but leering cameras are really, really offputting to me.
Quiet's interaction with the camera is just as problematic as her attire.
Changing her clothing wouldn't change the fact the camera needs to fuck off.
I mean, her actions are problematic too, I guess.
But seriously. The camera sucks.
("Jokey" Male versions subbed in because I wasn't entirely sure about the SFW-ness of the originals).
The terrible camera doesn't excuse the fact the clothing is terrible as well though.
If male characters looked like this then people would think it's kind of weird and out of place.
But if a female character looks like this then somehow it's fine and not all that abnormal.
I mean, if nothing else it looks silly.
Is Aloy less interesting because she isn't presented like this? I don't think so, and I'd certainly hope that isn't a common opinion.
Surely this can't actually be needed to make games sell when you could have perfectly reasonably presented attractive (or unattractive!) characters instead that are able to be more interesting because you can actually take them seriously.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
You know I concur that titillation can be very cumbersome to have in a game sometimes (as anyone who ever had to game at their parents' house while they were looking can attest) and I like strong female characters based on the diversity they show but I think there's nothing bad with some T and A every so often. Sex is a pretty freakin cool thing.
I'm playing these games as escapism dammit, not everything and everyone has to be incredibly wholesome, well-rounded and non-sexualized all the time, chill the fuck out peeps.
I'm playing these games as escapism dammit, not everything and everyone has to be incredibly wholesome, well-rounded and non-sexualized all the time, chill the fuck out peeps.
Honestly, "sex sells" pretty much refers to attractiveness and not softcore pornography, which is what you think is considered "normal" in gaming.
And as for Quiet, I can't know for sure but I think Quiet would have more fans if she weren't oversexed while being unattractive...
I don't know if anyone things that redesign of Aya Brand is good (I think I remember people not liking it).
I'm surprised 2B isn't being used as an example because for me, her costume design and attractiveness are massive plusses to the game without being cringy, bad or creepy at all. It's not even done in a satire way like Bayonetta.
But in the end, we're not arguing if it's a good thing or not, just that it sells. And it does. It gets people thinking of the game, it puts it in their mind and it's a great marketing tool to have attractiveness. That alone falls under "sex sells".
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The fact that For Honor is an ultra violent, online competitive fighting game with a perfunctory single player is a bigger hindrance to broader acceptance than its character models. But boob armor would take away from all the attention to detail and accuracy of the equipment.
True inclusiveness has to happen on a gameplay level.
Anne Rice novels are basicaly vampire gay sex aimed at straight male audience.
Which is why I keep saying that it is not "sex" that is the problem, it is OBJECTIFICATION.
hurricanes
Member
I feel like you and I are talking about different things now. I think this topic is to discuss how developer applied "sex sells" mentality to their product and whether it work or not. And as I mentioned in my first post in the thread, I think It's effectness varies from game to game.
I am actually very much in a industry that involves beauty and appeal, which is also related to advertising. Just let me chin in to say that the idea that "beauty" sells equal to "sex sells" is false, even if beauty and sex appeal are closely related. There are many instance where the advertising of/with beauty has nothing to do with sex appeal(If you want to go into detail, we will have to discuss something rather OOT like "why women want to dress up when they don't do it to appeal to men(or anyone really).")
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
You don't know that. Maybe many people didn't buy MGS5 because of Quiet. I know I didn't (that and it looked boring but Quiet was a surefire way to make me never want to spend money on that game).
I can't speak for Crossing Eden but I have answered this repeatedly in the past. *shrugs* It's OK, I'm used to my (and other women's) voice being ignored. Par for the course.
Saved, pah. Waifus ruined Fire Emblem and y'all know it
<3 <3 <3
I have said this over and over but no one ever listens ;__; I'd be totally OK with Aloy getting it on with some lover or another during a downtime from hunting robot animals, but insecure boys wouldn't like playing that so it won't ever happen. They're OK with objectifying women, but god forbid one would express her sexuality for her own sake and not theirs.
*eye-roll*
GAME. OVER.