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[Burbeting]

I agree with this to an extent. My post was more of a reflection of how a sexy character actually does not harm sales, just like Aloy's non-sexualized nature is very likely not the cause for its enormous success. Other far more important factors to gamers were at play.

The point wasn't (At least to me) that sexy characters harm sales, but that they don't enhance them either. So with the many problematic implications that objectifying designs/camera treatments can entail (can, won't necessarily do), why necessarily have those designs, if they do not enhance sales.

 

[Mega]

Come on Mega. We were moving past this and you had to bring it back. Now it's gonna be Horizon vs NieR when it shouldn't even be an argument in the first place.

You also must know that 2B herself isn't the only reason why so many people bought the game.

I honestly don't understand why we can't just move on.

Of course I get that re: 2B.

But If you have a problem with a "Nier vs Horizon" thing, direct it at Crossing Eden who happened to be the one to mention it like it's a competition between the two. It didn't even occur to me to bring up Horizon at all. I'm also not the type to ever have engaged in Zelda vs Horizon console wars nonsense.

 

[Crossing Eden]

so is this just the 'shit on Crossing Eden thread even though they have good points corroborated by others' or what

Depends on the poster. Ծ_Ծ

 

[Crossing Eden]

If you think that sex doesn't sell in any form of entertainment then you are utterly delusional quite frankly.

Let me stop you right there, not what the point of the thread is or what the OP is saying.

 

[Hades Hotgun]

Of course I get that re: 2B.

But If you have a problem with a "Nier vs Horizon" thing, direct it at Crossing Eden who happened to be the one to mention it like it's a competition between the two. It didn't even occur to me to bring up Horizon at all. I'm also not the type to ever have engaged in Zelda vs Horizon console wars nonsense.

No you don't. You argued it as evidence for your ridiculous beliefs, when it isn't.

I don't blame Crossing Eden for countering your nonsense with contradictory evidence, but I do have a problem with you trying to pretend that Nier Automata doing well is a repudiation of anything anybody said or that it defends anything you have said.

Honestly though, claiming a thing as evidence then asserting that you know it isn't evidence just indicates that you can't really grasp basic logical concepts.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Please crossing, save me the condescending tone and snipes, that's exactly what this thread is about based on the OP, making intellectually dishonest arguments designed to obfuscate people doesn't change that.

You make some valid points in the OP which I agree with but you are trying to intertwine a separate (discussion worthy narrative) about sexualization with "sex sells" in order to dismiss the latter despite the fact every single form of entertainment proves you wrong.

This is the point:

I only ever see "sex sells" used in defense of stuff like characters with appearances that make no sense in the context they're in outside of sex appeal. The only reason to use that justification (beyond a bypass of any actual discussion) is if the person genuinely believes that that character design is making a very notable difference to sales beyond a couple of % either way.

Again, if that isn't what people who spam "sex sells" to any analysis or criticism of certain designs mean, then it's a literally meaningless thing to say, or an intentional attempt to derail. I mean, even shitty things frequently sell on the basis of morbid curiosity of just how shitty they are.

Not that objectification will never sell a product ever.

 

[Contica]

This is the point:



Not that objectification will never sell a product ever.

With how many times in this thread you've had to correct people who misunderstand the OP, have you considered the possibility that you need to work on making yourself clear and understandable?

I've had to reread several of your posts to be sure I got the meaning correctly. I mean no offense, but instead of scolding people's reading abilities, you should probably work on your writing.

 

[Flame Lord]

I guess the point of this thread is to say the saying "sex sells" isn't a legitimate response to complaints about ridiculous outfits. Which I agree with, but I kind of question why ridiculous outfits need a defense in the first place.

 

[Mega]

No you don't. You argued it as evidence for your ridiculous beliefs, when it isn't.

I don't blame Crossing Eden for countering your nonsense with contradictory evidence, but I do have a problem with you trying to pretend that Nier Automata doing well is a repudiation of anything anybody said or that it defends anything you have said.

Honestly though, claiming a thing as evidence then asserting that you know it isn't evidence just indicates that you can't really grasp basic logical concepts.

Let me simplify it for you then since you're having trouble understanding the ongoing discussions that went on for pages.

Nier is a well-designed, good game with a sexy protag and said protag did not harm game sales and therefore redesigning her to be nonsexual serves no benefit to the game other than to appease those who find her offensive. And if you had been following this thread for a while you'd know that argument has come up before from myself and others (so kindly dispense with the logic nonsense), how there are other, bigger factors at play to a game's financial success beyond reskinning or covering her up.

Do I still hold the general sentiment that "sex sells" and it played some factor with Nier? Of course, not in the simple sense that some have been repeating ad nauseuam, but in the sense that basic attractiveness of a character or cast subconsciously nudges and draws us all into to want to see more and is hardly ever a hindrance to sales: it often just exists in a game and people consume it without a problem as they move past to the meat of their purchase. Throughout this thread, the argument has come up that games like DOA don't sell very well compared to highly marketed blockbusters as a sort of proof that "see! sex doesn't sell," with implications that getting rid of all that, redesigning the characters to be more PG-friendly, etc, would greatly improve matters. Games like Nier are proof that this is complete BS... that genre, niche, developer reputation, who's directing, gameplay refinement, so much more is at play.

 

[Crossing Eden]

With how many times in this thread you've had to correct people who misunderstand the OP, have you considered the possibility that you need to work on making yourself clear and understandable?

I've had to reread several of your posts to be sure I got the meaning correctly. I mean no offense, but instead of scolding people's reading abilities, you should probably work on your writing.

Willing to suspect it's more people having a kneejerk reaction to the title and not reading the OP fully. I mean the most succinct post I've made in this thread regarding Tracer, poses, and silhouettes even was misinterpreted if not outright mocked as an over explanation.

I guess the point of this thread is to say the saying "sex sells" isn't a legitimate response to complaints about ridiculous outfits. Which I agree with, but I kind of question why ridiculous outfits need a defense in the first place.

Because people are disturbingly willing to defend the more problematic aspects of the industry in regards to women, after all, they're typically the ones being catered to.

 

[Platy]

You have to ask yourself if you could imagine a very unattractive woman being the lead in a video game/movie where the game/movie isn't about what it's like to be an unattractive woman.

Bridesmaids ?
Spy ?
Melissa Mcartney is not getting roles because she is hot =P


For games it is harder because it is harder to get female protagonists AT ALL, but one could arguee that Isabelle is the main character of the Animal Crossing because she is the most focused in adverts and I HOPE that people don't buy animal crossing because they want to fuck her.

Also the original designs of samus was nowhere near attractive since she was a huge amazon muscled warrior ... totaly the opposite of what is considered attractive.
BUT that was only on artworks and the game did not reflected on that.

So ... Ms Pacman ?

 

[Hades Hotgun]

Let me simplify it for you then since you're having trouble understanding the ongoing discussions that went on for pages.

Nier is a well-designed, good game with a sexy protag and said protag did not harm game sales and therefore redesigning her to be nonsexual serves no benefit to the game other than to appease those who find her offensive. And if you had been following this thread for a while you'd know that argument has come up before from myself and others (so kindly dispense with the logic nonsense), how there are other, bigger factors at play to a game's financial success beyond reskinning or covering her up.

Do I still hold the general sentiment that "sex sells" and it played some factor with Nier? Of course, not in the simple sense that some have been repeating ad nauseuam, but in the sense that basic attractiveness of a character or cast subconsciously nudges and draws us all into to want to see more and is hardly ever a hindrance to sales: it often just exists in a game and people consume it without a problem as they move past to the meat of their purchase. Throughout this thread, the argument has come up that games like DOA don't sell very well compared to highly marketed blockbusters as a sort of proof that "see! sex doesn't sell," with implications that getting rid of all that, redesigning the characters to be more PG-friendly, etc, would greatly improve matters. Games like Nier are proof that this is complete BS... that genre, niche, developer reputation, who's directing, gameplay refinement, so much more is at play.

I actually read through quite a bit of the thread before posting and your summary actually just shows that you don't have the capacity to argue with the point that Crossing Eden is actually making. Which gives the distinct impression that the discussion was entirely over your head.

You make false assertions based on nothing, such as...

Games like Nier are proof that this is complete BS

Not only is it not proof, but it isn't even evidence. It is entirely irrelevant to your claim and your refusal to accept that further shows your inability or unwillingness to grasp basic concepts of logic.

 

[CannonFodder52]

Let me simplify it for you then since you're having trouble understanding the ongoing discussions that went on for pages.

Nier is a well-designed, good game with a sexy protag and said protag did not harm game sales and therefore redesigning her to be nonsexual serves no benefit to the game other than to appease those who find her offensive. And if you had been following this thread for a while you'd know that argument has come up before from myself and others (so kindly dispense with the logic nonsense), how there are other, bigger factors at play to a game's financial success beyond reskinning or covering her up.

Nier is a weird example man. Sex, and

Spoiler

sexual enjoyment through violence

are major intrinsic themes in the game. As usual Yoko Taro is commenting on the enjoyment the player is getting through the killing of others. I do not wish to spoil the game, but it has some heavy criticism and commentary on sexualised characters. Although you could definitely see it as Taro wanting to have his cake and eat it too.

 

[Mega]

Bridesmaids ?
Spy ?
Melissa Mcartney is not getting roles because she is hot =P

She was fine in Bridesmaids, but Melissa McCarthy has unfortunately been typecast as the same bumbling, vulgar, oafish big girl that's the butt of every verbal and physical joke (usually tripping or getting knocked in the face). Spy is probably the one exception where her ineptness is turned on its head and she's actually a skilled spy, not a Looney Tunes character. But the typecasting continues and its even in that car commercial where she's getting knocked around. See number 10 here:

http://www.goliath.com/movies/10-actors-who-are-forever-typecast/

I actually read through quite a bit of the thread before posting and your summary actually just shows that you don't have the capacity to argue with the point that Crossing Eden is actually making. Which gives the distinct impression that the discussion was entirely over your head.

You make false assertions based on nothing, such as...

Not only is it not proof, but it isn't even evidence. It is entirely irrelevant to your claim and your refusal to accept that further shows your inability or unwillingness to grasp basic concepts of logic.

What is "quite a bit?" Nothing? Because that seems more accurate.

You're saying/contributing nothing other than repetitively droning on about "logic" in a discussion out of your depth that you jumped into on a whim with your cheerleading for a side, in the familiar condescending tone permeating this thread. Good to know I'm dealing with someone spewing a whole lot of nothing. Please go ahead and reiterate more empty remarks about "logic" and "basic concepts." You're saying nothing here.

edit: If you're getting bent out of shape because you feel insulted by "insinuations" about your favorite game of the month, let me know so I can ignore everything else you're saying. No idea why the hell you think I'm shitting on Nier which I think is a fine game. Really tiring when people act like their newly adopted baby is getting stepped on.

 

[00ich]

Willing to suspect it's more people having a kneejerk reaction to the title and not reading the OP fully.

First sentence from the OP:
"[sex sells is an] outdated phrase that doesn't quite make sense in the current climate of video games,"

"Let me stop you right there, not what the point of the thread is or what the OP is saying."

I don't know if that makes sense to you.

But on to something more constructive: I still think the idea of "objectification", meaning making subject an object, is out of place for video game characters. NPC are not just technically objects. At no time would any NPC pass a Turing(-like) test.
This makes any questions regarding sexualization moral non-issues.

So you actually agree that "sex sells" is in fact true, there's really little to complain about. It's the essence of participating on a free market: game makers are trying to make the most desirable product .
Why would anybody defend that? Not assuming a market failure, it indicates that actually a lot of people find sexualization at least in some cases desirable.

 

[kiaaa]

The goalposts in this thread are moving constantly and the arguments are going in circles because there's almost no concrete evidence anyone can provide on the subject.

If the OP had been, "Sex sells is not a defense for poor character design" we might be in a better position, but this topic is all over the god damn place because everyone already knows the implicit meaning behind the phrase and it's being twisted into something almost sinister.

Bridesmaids ?
Spy ?
Melissa Mcartney is not getting roles because she is hot =P

I think you know this is a little disingenuous, but Melissa McCarthy is like the female version of Chris Farley or more accurately, Kevin James. They play almost entirely physical comedy. Even then, chances are she'd be pretty attractive if she dropped the weight.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

Saved, pah. Waifus ruined Fire Emblem and y'all know it

Awakenings sold 3 times as much as Radiant Dawn, the previous non-remake entry. So waifus actually should be credited with saving Fire Emblem, from a sales perspective.

¯\_(&#12484_/¯