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Game Over when MC dies in Persona is a terrible mechanic. Why is this still a thing?
- Thread starter Jeffrey
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DanielJr82
Member
sorry! Wrong thread. Please delete.
malboroking
Banned
If your going to complain about losing any time whatsoever, then why even put the battles in the game? Why not just have it be a Visual Novel?
I save a shit ton.
Im mixed because while I understand how frustrating it can be, I feel like late game if you're great at crafting Persona's and utilize all the tools presented to you. Your MC becomes just straight up over fucking powered.
Your MC being able to carry multiple Persona's already feels somewhat OP even though it is an intentional mechanic. This is honestly a check to him. Or else the game would feel way too easy. A lot of my challenge comes in managing SP and keeping him alive each battle.
Im mixed because while I understand how frustrating it can be, I feel like late game if you're great at crafting Persona's and utilize all the tools presented to you. Your MC becomes just straight up over fucking powered.
Your MC being able to carry multiple Persona's already feels somewhat OP even though it is an intentional mechanic. This is honestly a check to him. Or else the game would feel way too easy. A lot of my challenge comes in managing SP and keeping him alive each battle.
TheRedSnifit
Member
SMT4A is way more tense than the P3/4/5, despite not giving you a game over when the MC dies. We call this "good game design."
Maybe Persona fans have Stockholm Syndrome, I dunno.
Maybe Persona fans have Stockholm Syndrome, I dunno.
You're misconstruing things intentionally here, it seems.
Is it difficult to understand the difference between a fair loss in a videogame and a one that's the result of poor design decisions (bad stealth controls, random AI, instant death attacks and the MC's death being the end-all... despite revive items)?
Velcro Fly
Member
whatever it is in P5 it was infinitely worse in P3. Y'all remember how fun Tartarus was? And what is more fun than Tartarus? Doing it twice because of stupid fuckin Hama or Mudo hitting you when you aren't even weak to it.
I thought SMT4/A was incredibly easy once you got past the one shot mechanics due to you not knowing what's what. You either stomped or got stomped. It's kind of an SMT staple.
¯\_(ツ
_/¯I will say that I can understand why people might be frustrated by it, but there's a reason most of the Palaces have a select number of enemies inside of them. If you get killed early, you shouldn't be far from a save. If you get killed late, it's because you goofed and haven't been paying attention to what the 4-5 different enemies in the Palace can actually do. I make damn certain I don't walk into a battle with a persona that'll get me one-shotted by most enemies equipped. The worst is hama/mudo, and yes. Those are bullshit. The rest is mostly on you, the player, not exploring properly or just not saving enough. Hell, you just have to go into Safe Rooms! You don't even have to save!
DirgeExtinction
Member
It was annoying in FFXIII too.
Phrozenflame500
Member
Yeah even if the mechanic hasn't been removed Atlus has definitely indirectly neutered it. Not that I'm complaining.
What is even challenging about instadeath in scenarios where you don't get to react before your MC dies though?
It's not challenging. It's arbitrary.
I guess you can say that you need to be 100% sure to never get ambushed, but a) that's not possible with some enemies and b) that opens the can of worms that is the game's poor stealth controls.
PrinnyBomb
Member
It makes sense since the game puts a huge emphasis on who "you" are vs who your party members are.
Although I agree it should be tweaked. I've only played p3p, but going off of that maybe if they let you restart from a previous checkpoint-floor?
Although I agree it should be tweaked. I've only played p3p, but going off of that maybe if they let you restart from a previous checkpoint-floor?
Coolbgdog12
Member
How in the hell someone played the Pyramid for 2 1/2 hours without finding a safe room? Come on now let's not get into hyperbole city.
I was doing some grinding/persona hunting... felt 0 fear because I was demolishing enemies and had virtually unlimited SP because all of my characters have SP3 bands.
I don't consider most jrpgs to actually be roleplaying games since you aren't really playing a role at all. Persona is most definitely an RPG though and is set up in a way that makes sense. You wouldn't be upset at Skyrim for doing the same thing in a sense where your companion can die but you can't.
The only issue I see someone maybe having is the save system being a bit harsh in a modern sense, but it is a dungeon crawling game as well, and this is kind of par for the course for the genre IMO.
Yeah, I'm not understanding people that say they lost hours of progress. You're just not paying attention then. Every palace I've done had safe rooms at least 30 mins in between each of them. In fact that palace especially had a safe room soon after that first "mini boss" IIRC.
TWrecks310
Banned
We can argue whether the mechanic is good or not but some of you guys just need to save more.
You should not be losing hours of progress with how often you are given the opportunity to save. It's that simple.
You should not be losing hours of progress with how often you are given the opportunity to save. It's that simple.
Coolbgdog12
Member
When I was grinding on Merciless, I made sure to save after a few battles but I guess sometimes things just happen.
It's an annoying thing for sure don't get me wrong but I understand why it's there for some reason.
Let's argue about whether the mechanic is good or bad then?
It's bad.
If you randomly lose 30 minutes of progress it's hardly less stupid.
Trigonometrize.
Member
The game is very fair about giving safe rooms, bosses have option to instant retry, you're basically guaranteed to have a turn before a regular enemy if you're ambushing, the MC has access to every resistance and every nullification in the game, you have the option to run away, confidant trees have party members die in your place...
I don't see how this is that big of a problem.
I don't see how this is that big of a problem.
Vincent Alexander
Member
I ceraintly wish I could forget FF13 so easy.
I think for Persona, it's pretty OK since your main character is OP with a lot of skills at his disposal. The only thing I don't like that may result in this scenario are status effects that affect your whole party wherein you just sit and watch as your characters die one by one. It feels cheap and dirty.
Maybe they should enable to restart the battle on easy difficulty for people who are finding this troublesome to deal with.
Maybe they should enable to restart the battle on easy difficulty for people who are finding this troublesome to deal with.
It's fine. In the context of Persona, at least. Every single battle could be a battle of attrition if the MC dying didn't = game over. The only "game overs" I've had have been purely because I fucked up and MC had the wrong thing equipped. Would it be better if they replaced the 1-shot mechanics to be used party-wide? It'd still have the same result--if you didn't prepare properly/weren't anticipating it, it'd be game over. The current mechanics of the game are balanced around the MC being crazy strong and being game over if they die.
Saint Gregory
Member
My favorite death so far was getting ambushed in the 1st dungeon by a group of Succubus and having them spam Marin Karin on the party until we killed each other. I was even healing it using the one party member that avoided the first wave and it didn't matter since they just spammed it again once they recovered. I lost over an hour of time so since then I've been saving like crazy by backtracking to the safe rooms before any suspicious encounters.
I agree with that...
Having the mechanic only apply in boss fights could be another good solution, since they offer restarts.
The games difficulty is balanced around this. Otherwise you have extremely broken healing spells coupled with the fact that allies can endure a fatal blow and just revive you. It would be completely broken. Now, maybe it is a bad mechanic and they should tweak the entire system so that its balanced, but lets not pretend its not persisted as a mechanic for a reason. They just don't see a reason do the work necessary to change it.
I don't like that battles are a joke unless/until you make a small mistake that kills you. But its there because without it, there would be no weight to mob battles. If they just added auto save, then mob battles would have no weight, because they are already pretty mindless strategically and designed to be very short. They would have to change the entire flow of dungeon combat to overhaul this. Perhaps its easier and preferable that they add a few more save points instead.
I don't like that battles are a joke unless/until you make a small mistake that kills you. But its there because without it, there would be no weight to mob battles. If they just added auto save, then mob battles would have no weight, because they are already pretty mindless strategically and designed to be very short. They would have to change the entire flow of dungeon combat to overhaul this. Perhaps its easier and preferable that they add a few more save points instead.
Yep that happened to me twice in a row on my way to a boss lol. Only lose like 10 minutes of time but the most frustrating thing ever. In P5 you basically can't get ambush you'll be screwed.
I mean, yeah it's annoying, but aren't these games supposed to be hard? I remember that being one of the major selling points about Nocturne. As is, I'm finding Persona 5 to be easier than my time with Persona 3 and 4, so while it sucks to auto game over when your MC goes down, it does make me panic in a good way, especially when I haven't saved for a while.
I thought SMT4/A was incredibly easy once you got past the one shot mechanics due to you not knowing what's what. You either stomped or got stomped. It's kind of an SMT staple.
¯\_(ツ
Persona 5 is even easier than SMT4/A, especially with the SP regen stuff. I haven't died yet but the MC dies = lose thing is stupid. Heck, P5 finally defaults to direct command for your party members so by default you're playing as all party members. The MC doesn't feel more important or vital than the others.
Except like, if an enemy does a multi-hit-all move and crits Morgana down to kill range, you can play way riskier than if the crits landed on the MC. It's just lame having to give him priority over the others. This one thing holds the whole battle system back, because they have to accommodate it.
yeah thats another huge part of it. Like you pretty much have to be ambushing stuff or you can easily get screwed up. The stealth mechanic is clunky enough in which you will screw up occasionally.
oh yeah, there are still quite a bit of rng stuff even if you have the perfect setup.
like am i crazy or does the base accuracy feel lower than older games? Seem to miss quite a bit without any buffs/debuffs.
I'll third this.
Crits are annoying to me, but not inherently bad design. Hama/Mudo is just stupid.
Edit: Oh, party-wide Despair is a thing? Yuck.. That's pretty bad, too.
Anyone who says they play Persona because they are hard is in serious delusion. People play modern Persona because they are stylish social commentaries filled with anime waifus for dating. And the combat is cool and fast. Those are the selling points. Persona has never really been hard, at least not any harder than the average JRPG.
Scrooge McDuck
Member
That's rather discriminatory. When the other party member's HP reaches zero, they're just knocked out, not die. Heck, Morganna doesn't even even get knocked out; he just retreats to a safe place. Why is the MC the only one who dies?
Devilgunman
Member
Do people realize that they can flee the battle? There even is an item that ascertain your escape. If you're getting your ass kicked or fail the ambush, just flee the battle. Or too proud to run?
It's a consequence of him having the only functional penis in the game. Give and take.
I mostly agree with you except here. I think the hide controls are a little awkward and I have found myself caught because I meant to switch corners and it decided to unstick me instead or more often I'm trying to unstick at an opportune moment to hide somewhere I can't just skip to and it is so fidgety on what it allows I end up timing it wrong and seen. The controls are kinda awkward in how well they work so I wouldn't fully blame some one for executing a hide and ambush wrong.
NoctisVsStar
Member
P3 final boss was hard but other than that I agree.
There is no skill. Unless you're following a guide you have no idea what enemies/elements you'll be facing in a new dungeon, on top of that which enemy you're fighting once you engage. The only way to have a chance at avoiding random murder os to ambush enemies every single time. But even then I've run into instances where enemies will spawn and attack you less than a second after the victory screen, leaving you ambushed or in an even fight where random bullshit can occur.
If I had a nickel for every time I saw someone say they got hit by a status ailment in that fight and lost because of it I would be a rich man.
toddhunter
Member
That is deeper than most modern games.
Wow, rude duckroll. I play it
partially
Of course, that's not the only reason but still..
But you just said earlier that they're not hard!
Wait, what? I don't recall saying that? o_o
Hard mode's been about the right challenge for me, actually.
The protagonist death = game over is a long standing SMT trope. P1 and P2 did not have it, but 3, 4, and 5 all do.
I mostly lean toward the camp against it, but I get the reasoning why games have it. The idea is that you as the player must survive, and if you die, the mission is compromised. You can't command you demons/personas/whatever when you are dead.
However I think it is a fairly inconsistent system when you look at other contradictions. Humans can fall and be revived like nothing happened, so why can't the protagonist? It also is particularly brutal when you eat a Hama or Mudo and it is successful, despite your Persona not being weak to it.
P5 does some to offset this by allowing you to restart the battle if you die to a miniboss/boss. However if it happens in just a regular battle, you will be losing a good amount of progress.
I mostly lean toward the camp against it, but I get the reasoning why games have it. The idea is that you as the player must survive, and if you die, the mission is compromised. You can't command you demons/personas/whatever when you are dead.
However I think it is a fairly inconsistent system when you look at other contradictions. Humans can fall and be revived like nothing happened, so why can't the protagonist? It also is particularly brutal when you eat a Hama or Mudo and it is successful, despite your Persona not being weak to it.
P5 does some to offset this by allowing you to restart the battle if you die to a miniboss/boss. However if it happens in just a regular battle, you will be losing a good amount of progress.
SMTIV Apocalypse as well. Devil Survivor games let you do it.
Yeah, the other SMT games are usually harder than the Persona games.
I mean, can we really call a game "hard" then it gets broken by midgame? If the challenge on hard mode is "just right" is it really difficult? I like the feel of the challenge in Persona games, but I definitely don't consider them hard games.