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[Frozenprince]

That's a non-rebuttle if I've ever seen one.

What rebuttal? I'm telling you a fact. A turn based RPG has its combat work through variables based off a probability generator (most games roll virtual dice, some do percentages).

There will always be random variables that you cannot account​ for. It's structurally impossible to remove RNG from a turn based game.

You're arguing like three different things.

The game is build around mitigating these nbers against you through savvy use of items, persona, equipment, confidant skills et all.

 

[Phu]

The little guys that look like they have onions for heads, it's a Japanese name that I will never ever learn.

And of course they have a weakness, it's Persona, everything has a weakness. "Kill everything before it ever gets a single turn against you" isn't really a strategy. Plus, I largely have no problem with the mechanic, only that I acknowledge that for new players unaware of some tools to avoid these deaths having the MC get Mudo'd 20 minutes out from a save point kinda sucks.

This is 99% of the fights in the game and people think the MC death thing needs to be there for the sake of difficulty or to show his importance of the MC when nearly every fight starts with your advantage and you just spam weaknesses for an all-out attack. The battle system is flawed.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Also no? You can't. In Persona 5 you can only switch out your teammates during the MC's turn. If it's Ryuji's turn you can't switch him out with Ann.

Also okay so we've gotten to that point now. Good. Wondered when we were going to hit that point. Seriously when you go to the: "...you don't have to play", you've official run out of any arguement power.

Ok.

So you didn't dig the game deep enough to see the star. I got it.

Also, you keep repeating same stuff that game is broken because you don't like it. The game provides you ample enough resources and insurances (like asks you before major battle etc) and you keep complaining about one thing. That's not argument. that's tantrum.

Yup, don't dig the game I have over 70 hours in. Yup, I hate it. So much so that I put in 60 hours in the first week of release cause I don't dig the game.

What he meant was, you can do it actually, if you upgrade Star to 10 :/

If you wanna be angry at least get your info right first :/

The little guys that look like they have onions for heads, it's a Japanese name that I will never ever learn.

And of course they have a weakness, it's Persona, everything has a weakness. "Kill everything before it ever gets a single turn against you" isn't really a strategy. Plus, I largely have no problem with the mechanic, only that I acknowledge that for new players unaware of some tools to avoid these deaths having the MC get Mudo'd 20 minutes out from a save point kinda sucks.

See, *why* is that not a Strategy? The game taught you that you have to seek advantages whenever possible, using movement to stealth ambushes all the time. Also, the onion guy is weak against gunfire, which is basically practically a win button whenever you managed to ambush them. That is a countermeasure; if you don't make use of it, then it's your own fault.

 

[Ferrio]

Yet I didn't say that RNG has to be completely gone, which is what he suggested. I didn't say that. I said RNG in relation to death.

Somehow that = No RNG ever.

But how do you separate the two? A death from RNG is merely whether you prepared for it or not.

 

[IC5]

P4 was my first Persona and I just sorta learned that I can't risk grinding levels too long.

I otherwise like the idea for boss fights and tougher fights.

 

[Kalentan]

What rebuttal? I'm telling you a fact. A turn based RPG has its combat work through variables based off a probability generator (most games roll virtual dice, some do percentages).

There will always be random variables that you cannot account​ for. It's structurally impossible to remove RNG from a turn based game.

Because I NEVER SUGGESTED THAT. Like how did I suggest that RNG should be removed?

I never once said that. I said in relation to death. Because it can be RNG that an enemy gets a critcial on the MC, and then attacks them again and kills them in a single turn. That's a death due to RNG.

Yet if you take that same situation and then remove the game over mechanic of it, then suddenly it becomes a non-issue. RNG didn't determine that I would get a game over that round.

Now if it's case where only one character is left alive, then that is a completely different story.

 

[Unison]

I don't really understand the argument that the existence of 1 round / no-input Game Overs due to MC death somehow makes the game harder.

You aren't being challenged. There is no way for you to overcome it and there is nothing you could have done right, especially if you are getting glitched into an ambush or facing off against an enemy for the first time. You are just being randomly fucked over.

Challenge isn't part of the equation.

This doesn't add anything to the game or make it more challenging.

 

[Jeffrey]

I feel like im missing what the argument is heading now lol.

The game is a easy game, yeah I get that, never said it wasn't. I'm just calling out on this bullshit (imo).

It's like if a 'easy' game like kirby had a random 'hardcore' mechanic like, dead = restart the whole game. Just seems off right?

Like pretty much every other aspect of this game screams, casual light jrpg funs. Does it need a 'hardcore' feature to add tension? Maybe on higher difficulties, but it kinda seems pointless on normal. I don't feel 'tense', just annoyed.

Also its always the crits that kills me, not elementals or mudo. I don't think i can create persona that can nullify physical attacks yet.

A good hard game makes every death feel justified. When you die in a game and can't learn something from the death, it's a cheap death.

 

[Frozenprince]

Like, the combat is so simple and easy "spam weakness first turn to create a down then negotiate" because it's not the combat itself that's important.

Like everything else what matters is time management. The attrition of resource management and time management to accomplish dungeon goals through a set timeframe.

Which the game allows you to break stupidly easy by the fourth dungeon because you get items that render any and all resource conservation meaningless.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

But this isn't Dark Souls. This is a game that's fundamental systems are build off the back of probability. You cannot ever remove RNG from a game of this style.

It's not that the game has RNG, it's that you have zero way of mitigating bad RNG. Fire Emblem games also have MCs who cause game overs when they die, but you can mitigate this by not having them fight enemies that can crit if their defense/HP is too low to tank the crit. The RNG is there, but you can mitigate it. This, accordingly, creates an actual risk-reward thing where you can plan a strategy around a matchup that runs the risk of getting you instakilled.

If you get bad RNG in P5, it's game over. No ifs, no buts, it's gg, better luck next time. The only real way of mitigating this is to kill everything before it gets a single turn, which isn't always possible because of how generally janky the game is.

 

[Joeku]

Solution: in a non-boss fight, let the MC die, fade out, and fade back up. The other characters say "Hey, Joker, we did it, but it was tough without you leading us." Everyone else in the party has taken a big hp/sp hit.

From that point you can deal with it and continue on or reload anyway.

 

[cheez124]

i normally dislike the MC death = game over thing myself, but looking back at my playthrough of P5 so far, i can't really think of any instances where my death wasn't my own fault...well, except this one time i got hit with 4 critical hits in a row, but that's an outlier.

i've always been cautious about what weaknesses my personas have when going into battles; i always try to keep the persona with the least amount of weaknesses equipped. light and darkness insta kills haven't been a problem for me, either. i never leave a persona who's weak to light/dark equipped before going into a battle, and i don't use them when it's an enemy i haven't faced before until i know what their moves are.

 

[Unison]

This is 99% of the fights in the game and people think the MC death thing needs to be there for the sake of difficulty or to show his importance of the MC when nearly every fight starts with your advantage and you just spam weaknesses for an all-out attack. The battle system is flawed.

I agree with this...

The funny part is that the boss fights, which should be the hardest part of the game, allow restarts (at least on my difficulty) making them 0% frustrating for me, even if you lose when the MC randomly dies.

Don't mind those losses one bit...

 

[Lynx_7]

Yet you could switch out any character at any time so that point is moot since you could simply switch out the best character for the situation. And unlike Persona 5, it doesn't require you to be on the MC's turn to switch them out.

FF X is also on the really easy side of RPGs so I'm not sure if it's the best example for the discussion at hand.

I don't have an issue with the mechanic when the games are designed around it. Hell, I didn't even have an issue with it on the DLC difficulty of Apocalypse and that game probably wasn't designed around it. I wouldn't care if they dropped it in favor of a more nuanced approach to difficulty, but SMT games in general give you such an incredibly vast army of demons/persona to handle whatever situation you may find yourself in, that having MC death = game over isn't all that unreasonable to balance things out. DDS 1 and 2 didn't adopt MC death because you were stuck with a fixed party and could only change skills, resistances and whatnot beforehand, rendering the mechanic unnecessary.

 

[Frozenprince]

Like, not everything needs to be in a game based off challenge and what may or may not be "good gameplay" which is subjective as all hell.

Sometimes systems are there because that's how the creators intend for it to work.

It's super easy to see why the MC dying is an instant party wipe. Because Persona is a power fantasy wherein you hunt waifus and solve murders because your commander big dick.

 

[grebby]

I'm on the forth palace at the moment, just sent the calling card so I'll be ready to finish it off later today. I think I've died twice so far in my play through, and I think both times were because I was not paying attention and got ambushed.

So far P5 has felt very easy going for me personally. I may not have encountered too many bullshit encounters but this is definitely much more accessible than other Atlus games. SMT4 started out harder than anything I've seen in P5, of course like a lot of these games the start is usually the hardest and by the end of the game you can be an OP monster.

 

[TheCthultist]

Get the buffs and play better.

Done. The argument can end right there.
Without the MC's death (since he's the one commanding the battle and the one you're playing as, even if you set it so you control the others' actions) being a game over, these fights on normal and easy lose all semblance of challenge. You have the ability to create and switch to persona's who are strong or immune to everything short of Almighty. There's no reason for you to die at all if you put a little planning into it.

Beyond that, save often. That's been a constant of the SMT and Persona series...es for years.

 

[StereoVsn]

The real issue is not even really MC dying. It's the way save rooms are spread out is the issue where sometimes it takes 30+ min between them coupled with no auto-save. Throw in a stealth system with fairly poor controls and enemy spawning system that can throw a spawn nearby after combat or entering a door (had it happen right outside - save room couple times) making it almost impossible to avoid an ambush, and you have some frustrating situations.

Plus some dungeons have mobs that can hit you on different instead kills and as early as second dungeon that starts happening. That makes it very difficult to always carry a persona that is immune, plus during an ambush you can get hit by a status attack and die before you are able to do anything.

If they added a quick save slot in the dungeon between save rooms that could help. Or make MC dying not be a game over like in SMT IV.

 

[Sayad]

It can be cheep at times, but man, I'd never see the game over screen without this.

 

[Joeku]

Like, not everything needs to be in a game based off challenge and what may or may not be "good gameplay" which is subjective as all hell.

Sometimes systems are there because that's how the creators intend for it to work.

It's super easy to see why the MC dying is an instant party wipe. Because Persona is a power fantasy wherein you hunt waifus and solve murders because your commander big dick.

While I don't personally have much issue with the MC death thing, you aren't really saying anything here. The game starts in media res and occasionally cuts away to show other characters that aren't the MC talking and doing things. Fallout 3 this isn't. Frankly, the game assuming the other characters don't have the sense to revive the MC like he does them is kind of putting them down to be honest.

 

[Hazmat]

See, *why* is that not a Strategy? The game taught you that you have to seek advantages whenever possible, using movement to stealth ambushes all the time. Also, the onion guy is weak against gunfire, which is basically practically a win button whenever you managed to ambush them. That is a countermeasure; if you don't make use of it, then it's your own fault.

Dude, I feel like you're coming at me really hard over something trivial that we mostly agree on. I merely stated that I feel that Hama/Mudo MC deaths are understandably frustrating ("lame" was my exact wording), particularly for new players. There's no real point to saying any more.

 

[Wolf Akela]

The only thing that bothered me was that they didn't put the "restart at the start of the floor" option that P4G had.

MC death by itself doesn't really bother me. I always have a Persona with the least dangerous weaknesses before entering battle.

There are so many measures to guard from instant wipes though. One is to equip Personas with least dangerous weaknesses like mentioned. Another is to use status spells to disable new enemies while you kill the ones you're familiar with, which gives you plenty of time to figure out weaknesses. You should always always get Ambush as well. Always keep your HP near full and never let your SP ge too low. Retreat if you have to.

It's RNG, you can always get screwed, but you have many ways to stack the odds in your favour. This is the same principle with games like FTL.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

I'm not super far into the game, just one palace. I save every opportunity during a dungeon, and only had the MC die once. It was a red enemy, I didn't know its weakness and it killed me in one hit. Didnt see it as a learning moment or anything, I was just annoyed. I lost about half an hour and the next time through I had narrowed it down enough to get its weakness, killed it easily.

Lowering the difficulty isn't really a good option, because overall the game has been super easy, if you know the weakness the fights never go longer than one turn. It's fine because it looks so fucking good, but it's not a challenge.

If I lost an hour or more it might be enough for me to put down the game for a week or more with how much there is to play/do right now. Not sure what the solution is, if he could be healed I would never feel worried whatsoever, but IF he actually died all it would do is piss me off.

 

[dreamlongdead]

Easy mode solves OP's problems, so this is practically a non-issue.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Dude, I feel like you're coming at me really hard over something trivial that we mostly agree on. I merely stated that I feel that Hama/Mudo MC deaths are understandably frustrating ("lame" was my exact wording), particularly for new players. There's no real point to saying any more.

Hahaha, I am not "coming at you really hard" or whatever you're implying, sorry if I come off like that.

Easy mode solves OP's problems, so this is practically a non-issue.

You mean safety. But yes, there is a mode available for people who wish for the ability to restart any battles immediately whenever they die, so they should probably use that to suit their needs better.

 

[RalchAC]

If you don't know an enemy weakness, just use a Persona that doesn't have weaknesses. It's rather easy to get one with the imprisonment feature.

Buff your defense, nerf your enemies attack and inflict an status like Confusion to your enemy. Use an item to runaway if necessary, because the more time you spend in a battle the bigger the chance to die.

If you can't find how to kill somebody, go back to the Velvet Room and try to fuse him.

I don't really see the problem.

 

[witchedwiz]

whelp, some points arte valid.. some.. not so much..
First palace at hard is a nightmare...
You're low level, your persona stock is limited, and you'll run into serious so issue..
With a limited choice of personas you're bound to face a group of enemies that by pure chance will kill you..
And not because you did something wrong, but simply because skull missa non attack and all your precious calculation to not waste an item//sp unless necessary go to hell due to crit from One enemy and 2x weakness exploit on mc from the other enemy..
Unlucky stuff? Sure, but there's no prevention.. you're too early to have competitive personas with 2+ resist or persona without weakness...
Anyway That's that..
I felt the difficulty spike on hard in the first palace, as i'm trying to do a 1 day clean of palace, so i run with limited sp, etc.. i'm sure that by the third/fourth palace, it will be a cakewalk

 

[Raonak]

I mean, what other game lets you keep playing when you die?

Don't most multiparty RPG?

 

[Wolf Akela]

Can't see how you can do Palace 1 in one day on hard. You'd have to avoid a lot of enemies to conserve SP, but you'll also be underleveled. I managed to beat the boss at Lv10 on Hard (not in one day), and that was already brutal because the super useful skills against the boss unlocks at Lv11.

 

[Burbeting]

It's annoying when you get killed by something beyond your control. An enemy put Rage into my MC, who then attacked and got killed due to enemy having high counter. MC had full health too .

And some of the later palaces can make you lose 50-70 minutes of progress.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

Yeah, it's an objectively bad mechanic in the game. If you can revive other party members you should be able to revive the party leader. And to those saying it's fair because you have a multitude of Persona and can switch mid battle:

What if you are hit with one of the one-hit KO moves. Game over.

What if you are hit with your weakness and then the enemy does a follow up attack. Game over.

What if the enemy spans AOE attacks, hitting a team members weakness and then getting a critical hit on another and then targeting you. Game over.

I absolutely love Persona 5 to death, but this mechanic needs to GTFO.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

It's fine as a game over condition.

What is bullshit is not having the option to restart from the battle you just lost.

 

[zoku88]

SMT4A is plenty tense and harder than P3,4, and 5 on default difficulties and that game doesn't game over when MC dies.

And the MC in SMT4A is hilariously OP

SMTIV A is way easier than any other SMT game I've played. I think I did maybe 3 or 4 times? Since there isn't a time limit or anything, you can pretty much abuse skills. Especially if you give your MC energy drain.

That, and as someone said before, Persona's one more system is kind of broken, so you're pretty much forced to finish battles in a way to prevent enemy turns.

 

[Anoxida]

You mean safety. But yes, there is a mode available for people who wish for the ability to restart any battles immediately whenever they die, so they should probably use that to suit their needs better.

Ugh. Some people want challenge without the MC dying = game over. A game can be hard even without this shitty game mechanic.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

It's fine as a game over condition.

What is bullshit is not having the option to restart from the battle you just lost.

So you want no tension whatsoever in dungeons? What's even the point of making safe rooms at specific intervals when every single battle is essentially checkpointable?

 

[SciencePilot]

Persona isn't the only RPG that does this.

In general, I tend to get annoyed by RPGs that treat the main character as "special" in some way compared to the other party members. Like if you're always forced to have MC in the party, or if the MC is especially strong, etc. Usually the MC is the most boring character (personality-wise) in the party, so I get annoyed when I have to take special care of them.

 

[OuterLimits]

It is mainly a pain for me when battling new enemies, which sometimes doesn't go well

My turn. Ok,let's try this. Nope, none of my attacks hit a weakness. Bummer.

Enemy turn. Proceeds to destroy my MC quickly. Game over. Well, ok then.

Obviously once I figure out the weakness, it of course becomes super easy if you have the advantage. Although getting the advantage in this game isn't as easy for me as P3/P4. The camera drives me nuts at times. Plus I struggle moving the MC. It just doesn't feel smooth.

In P4, the other characters would die for the MC early in the game. Seemed a bit silly they were willing to sacrifice themselves for the MC about a week after they met, but I wasn't complaining.

It made sense to me in P3 FES since I could only control the MC. The later games let you control everyone though, do it's rather annoying that just killing the MC is Game Over even if the others can revive or win the battle

 

[Linkstrikesback]

So you want no tension whatsoever in dungeons? What's even the point of making safe rooms at specific intervals when every single battle is essentially checkpointable?

My time is worth more than whatever you're calling tension, yes.

That you think there is no tension beyond the chance of losing large amounts of your own time to what amounts to bad luck is a rather damning line of thought on personas battles.

 

[Venfayth]

My time is worth more than whatever you're calling tension, yes.

That you think there is no tension beyond the chance of losing large amounts of your own time to what amounts to bad luck is a rather damning line of thought on personas battles.

Play on safety then since you're not interested in anything but the story.

 

[Anoxida]

So you want no tension whatsoever in dungeons? What's even the point of making safe rooms at specific intervals when every single battle is essentially checkpointable?

There are other ways to do this without playera losing up to an hour of progress to rng.

I think even though our opinion differs, its safe to say people who see this mechanic as a positive is in the vast minority,at least outside of GAF. So why make a design decision that most people see as a flaw? And that may very alienate a lot of new players, which makes it a bad financial decision as well.

You can add tension and punish people who are unprepared in other ways. They just werent able to do it.

Edit:

Play on safety then since you're not interested in anything but the story.

Also comments like this are trash. You just dont get it do you?

 

[Lynx_7]

The ideal solution would probably be to let players make their own customizable difficulty. Have the usual pre-set difficulties there, but give players the option to toggle MC death, battle checkpoints or whatever else they want at the start of the playthrough. I've seen at least two turn-based indie games give you plenty of options to customize these things so it shouldn't be that difficult for Atlus.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Ugh. Some people want challenge without the MC dying = game over. A game can be hard even without this shitty game mechanic.

Well, you want a challenge but then immediately balks when the game gave you a challenge.

Heck, the game is pretty easy that if you remove that you'll be getting an even easier game, which contradicts your desire to have a challenge.

So...?

There are other ways to do this without playera losing up to an hour of progress to rng.

I think even though our opinion differs, its safe to say people who see this mechanic as a positive is in the vast minority,at least outside of GAF. So why make a design decision that most people see as a flaw? And that may very alienate a lot of new players, which makes it a bad financial decision as well.

You can add tension and punish people who are unprepared in other ways. They just werent able to do it.

Edit:

Also comments like this are trash. You just dont get it do you?

So, I am curious, how would you suggest Persona 5 to be changed if it were up to you?

 

[Domstercool]

Yet you could switch out any character at any time so that point is moot since you could simply switch out the best character for the situation. And unlike Persona 5, it doesn't require you to be on the MC's turn to switch them out.



Hardly. In fact if they removed it they could actually increase the difficulty overall.

You get a confidant that lets you do it on any turn.

 

[Venfayth]

There are other ways to do this without playera losing up to an hour of progress to rng.

I think even though our opinion differs, its safe to say people who see this mechanic as a positive is in the vast minority,at least outside of GAF. So why make a design decision that most people see as a flaw? And that may very alienate a lot of new players, which makes it a bad financial decision as well.

You can add tension and punish people who are unprepared in other ways. They just werent able to do it.

Edit:

Also comments like this are trash. You just dont get it do you?

I read and comprehend everything you're saying but reject the idea that it's worth doing and I think you and the other people asking for this are asking for a worse game based on nothing other than the fact that you have been frustrated you died.

Yes it's sad to lose an hour of progress. If it happens to you more than once then it's your own fault.

I sympathize with the frustration but am glad y'all don't make games.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Well, you want a challenge but then immediately balks when the game gave you a challenge.

Heck, the game is pretty easy that if you remove that you'll be getting an even easier game, which contradicts your desire to have a challenge.

So...?

That's more an indictment of how braindead the game's battles are than a positive for this mechanic.

If the only "challenge" comes from randomly ending the game, maybe it's time we think about whether these games have good combat.

 

[Chaos17]

I agree with OP, this mechanic is hatefull. Other rpgs let that go a long time ago.

 

[Anoxida]

Well, you want a challenge but then immediately balks when the game gave you a challenge.

Heck, the game is pretty easy that if you remove that you'll be getting an even easier game, which contradicts your desire to have a challenge.

So...?



So, I am curious, how would you suggest Persona 5 to be changed if it were up to you?

A simple change would be adding a difficulty that let's you restart at the end of a lost battle without making all the battles completely trivial (safety) or adding a auto save feature that saves every 15 minutes or so. I think that would've made everyone happy. Those who want the game over and potentially lose an hour of progress because MC dies gets to keep it that way and those who don't want that gets their wish as well. Personally I wouldn't mind the MC dying = game over as much if it didn't mean I potentially lose significant progress. I lost about an hour in dungeon 3 to some bullshit and d3 is a shitty designed dungeon to begin with. Replaying that hour was not fun.

Edit:

I read and comprehend everything you're saying but reject the idea that it's worth doing and I think you and the other people asking for this are asking for a worse game based on nothing other than the fact that you have been frustrated you died.

Yes it's sad to lose an hour of progress. If it happens to you more than once then it's your own fault.

I sympathize with the frustration but am glad y'all don't make games.

It's still RNG though. I've played persona games before I know how to minimize the chance of dying. Doesn't mean it can't happen though even if I play properly. Unless I fucking have prior knowledge to all the new personas I face I don't know what their move set is or their weakness. If that's your argument then I guess you wouldn't mind game over = permadeath? Diablo style? Or is that where you cross some line? That would add some real fucking tension dude.

 

[patapuf]

Persona isn't the only RPG that does this.

In general, I tend to get annoyed by RPGs that treat the main character as "special" in some way compared to the other party members. Like if you're always forced to have MC in the party, or if the MC is especially strong, etc. Usually the MC is the most boring character (personality-wise) in the party, so I get annoyed when I have to take special care of them.

Jep, in party based RPG's, i mostly want to play with a party - especially in combat.

So i'd like combat designed around the whole party - and not just the MC.

For some reason many newer RPG's put party management in the background during combat. And in a turn based game thats super boring.

 

[Auto_aim1]

If you have the ability to revive party members, it's silly that if the MC dies it is a game over. I think it's an outdated mechanic but I didn't really have any problems with it because of the generous amount of save rooms you can find in dungeons. It does suck if you lose a lot of progress though.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

My time is worth more than whatever you're calling tension, yes.

That you think there is no tension beyond the chance of losing large amounts of your own time to what amounts to bad luck is a rather damning line of thought on personas battles.

Yes, the bolded is absolutely true. 100%. Where is the tension in a game that doesn't punish your failure with significant amount of time lost? That's where it always come back to. If you disagree, please point me to the other ways in which a game like Persona 5 creates tension-filled situations in dungeons, which thematically make sense to be very strenuous (game literally has a countdown clock in the top-right corner at all times that will lead to certain doom), that have nothing to do with negating your time spent with the game. And you say "large," but it just has to be more than just starting over the same battle which lasts all of a minute or two on average. Starting over the battle from scratch, you will never even remember what you just did hours from then. It doesn't matter, and that's bad.

If you believe your time is worth more than the mechanics that have you actually think about what you're doing that affect the tone of the story, the progression through the level, then I think you've made your mind up to stop playing. You've got more important things to do.

"My time is valuable" is not an argument that a game is badly designed. It's an argument for not being obliged to indulge in the game, which is perfectly fine. Hey, my time is valuable. I only have five minutes before I go to work and there's this thirty minute puzzle in front of me. Is the puzzle now bad for taking thirty minutes instead of five? Of course not. Should all puzzles respect my time better? Of course not.