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Game Over when MC dies in Persona is a terrible mechanic. Why is this still a thing?
- Thread starter Jeffrey
- Start date
Maybe we should stop repeating the idea that it's ONLY difficult because of gameover on MC death. Is Dark Souls only difficult because you have to corpse run when you die? No. There are other factors.
Furthermore if you think it's just RNG then you should pay closer attention to the games systems.
Also people are overstating the amount of time lost. Losing an hour of progress over a 90 hour game is not a travesty. If you're losing more than that then you're not being prudent about saving or paying attention to the games mechanics.
Or you're being stubborn about what's important to you and rejecting to use a difficulty specifically designed so that this doesn't happen to you.
You can die to RNG, but you are being intentionally ignorant of too many options the game presents for me to take you seriously. The party members can take hits for you, you can save more frequently, you can use personas without weaknesses and higher endurance stats until you know what they use, you can check abilities with a certain confidant, or you can play on the difficulty designed for people who think dying shouldn't mean losing time.
Furthermore if you think it's just RNG then you should pay closer attention to the games systems.
Also people are overstating the amount of time lost. Losing an hour of progress over a 90 hour game is not a travesty. If you're losing more than that then you're not being prudent about saving or paying attention to the games mechanics.
Or you're being stubborn about what's important to you and rejecting to use a difficulty specifically designed so that this doesn't happen to you.
You can die to RNG, but you are being intentionally ignorant of too many options the game presents for me to take you seriously. The party members can take hits for you, you can save more frequently, you can use personas without weaknesses and higher endurance stats until you know what they use, you can check abilities with a certain confidant, or you can play on the difficulty designed for people who think dying shouldn't mean losing time.
AlexFlame116
Member
I guess I have to explain myself more then?
I grind a lot in these games. Past experiences with RPGS in general have led me to that conclusion. I played the game and I know there are times when you have to play an hour or more with no saves. Again, I am a save hoarder. I always try to either save or have the latest equipment. The biggest thing I still have to grasp is the Persona Fusion system. By buffing I meant things like (crap I forgot what they're called. Why can't they just say "Fire" or "Death" instead if Agi and Mudo?) the status ones that the party members do on the on the gang. Also, when a party member sacrifices their life for you once you've ranked high enough with them.
Of course this is just me though so people ha e different experiences and opinions.
Make reviving super expensive (say, make it cost time the next day) or drop it from the ability list entirely.
In combat system with fights as short as persona, you shouldn't need to revive anyway.
rebalance around that.
Dark Soul is a solo game, that's totaly different from having a team.
I think you and the others are just blindly in love with the game so much that you're unable to see how old and shitty mechanic it is.
Etrian odyssay made by Atlus is one of the best turn based in term of gameplay and yet it doesn't rely on your Mc death to make the game more dificult (I'm talking about the untold stories).
No Altus do not like to make big gameplay improuvement with Persona franchise while they're totaly able like they did with Tokyo Miraga, if you don't understand what I'm talking about then you should go play other Atlus games before defending that shitty mechanic.
Still that option removes any and all challenge so, no thank you. If it didnt nerf enemies and buff party then I would've.
I've had this happen twice over 118 hours and I'll just say this.
If you think you lost "an hour or 1.5 hour worth of progress"...then you are wrong because nowhere in the game are the save points that spread apart. Now I am NOT SAYING it didn't take you that long, infact it probably did and it took me that long as well. But what I am saying is that it took you that long because you were playing real slow. In the 7th dungeon I felt like I lost 1.5 hours worth of progress, I stopped playing got back the next day and it took me a grand total of 10-15 mins to catch up and this time I even backtracked for a minute to make sure to save in between so that if I die then I can catch up even quicker. 10-15 mins...that's nothing and if you get zero penalty for dying then it takes the challenge away (that's why the option exists in easy mode).
If you are dying before you even get a turn then you are being ambushed and I have to wonder why? Ambushing an enemy is so easy in this game because the stealth mechanic is so easily exploitable as it allows you to move and be right in front of enemies and not be noticed. Secondly, why would you not pick a persona with no weakness or atleast one with a weakness that isn't exploitable in that palace?
It also seems people are sometimes complaining for the sake of it like the MC being despaired and not having items to cure. Well the items are there for a reason, you chose not to buy them. And on top of that you have multiple characters in game that can cure it with their abilities if you didn't have them in the party or didn't use them to cure the MC...Then that was your choice.
If you think you lost "an hour or 1.5 hour worth of progress"...then you are wrong because nowhere in the game are the save points that spread apart. Now I am NOT SAYING it didn't take you that long, infact it probably did and it took me that long as well. But what I am saying is that it took you that long because you were playing real slow. In the 7th dungeon I felt like I lost 1.5 hours worth of progress, I stopped playing got back the next day and it took me a grand total of 10-15 mins to catch up and this time I even backtracked for a minute to make sure to save in between so that if I die then I can catch up even quicker. 10-15 mins...that's nothing and if you get zero penalty for dying then it takes the challenge away (that's why the option exists in easy mode).
If you are dying before you even get a turn then you are being ambushed and I have to wonder why? Ambushing an enemy is so easy in this game because the stealth mechanic is so easily exploitable as it allows you to move and be right in front of enemies and not be noticed. Secondly, why would you not pick a persona with no weakness or atleast one with a weakness that isn't exploitable in that palace?
It also seems people are sometimes complaining for the sake of it like the MC being despaired and not having items to cure. Well the items are there for a reason, you chose not to buy them. And on top of that you have multiple characters in game that can cure it with their abilities if you didn't have them in the party or didn't use them to cure the MC...Then that was your choice.
It being a "solo game" is actually a completely arbitrary design that doesn't matter as much as you imply.
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I'm actually open to the idea of them changing it. im not really attached to the mechanic at all. But that doesn't mean I agree it's shitty, I just think the people who are complaining are overstating the actual impact it has - and that's all they can base their argument on.
eyeball_kid
Member
If y'all need a justification for this mechanic, here's my running pet theory:
All of the MCs of Persona games since at least P3 are already dead. The Velvet Room is basically Purgatory, and Igor is tasked with deciding whether the MC is good or evil. So the MC gets put into an artificial environment, a series of moral tests, which comprise the events of the game. That's why the MC has Persona powers unlike anyone else. But none of it is real, so when the MC "dies" in battle, the dream ends, and the MC goes back to Purgatory.
All of the MCs of Persona games since at least P3 are already dead. The Velvet Room is basically Purgatory, and Igor is tasked with deciding whether the MC is good or evil. So the MC gets put into an artificial environment, a series of moral tests, which comprise the events of the game. That's why the MC has Persona powers unlike anyone else. But none of it is real, so when the MC "dies" in battle, the dream ends, and the MC goes back to Purgatory.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Also, is it really possible to eliminate RNG for a turn-based battle?
If you want to eliminate RNG entirely from Persona, you have to basically rework the entire battle system, and make it something like Nier, maybe? Which is bad, because that's not what I want at all.
Like, how do you marry the desire to eliminate RNG without completely changing Persona?
If you want to eliminate RNG entirely from Persona, you have to basically rework the entire battle system, and make it something like Nier, maybe? Which is bad, because that's not what I want at all.
Like, how do you marry the desire to eliminate RNG without completely changing Persona?
i feel like this kind of complaints would be like if back in the days when i was playing super mario my father would ask me "why do you have to restart the level if you die? why not respawn there"
listen i get that we get less time to play but game should still be challeging and punish you for your mistakes in some kind of way. if your enemy can cast mudo and you don't put up protection you can't really get mad at the game
I've never found a problem with this, and this is after replaying each Persona game multiple times.
Story-line wise, I guess the design choice here is that the game is telling you that the main character you see on your screen is actually an extension of yourself. Each character's action/order that you make is delivered through the main character (who acts as your proxy essentially). You are "seeing" the battle/world through your characters eyes, so I think its reasonable to assume that being knocked out = screen fades to black/can't order party members around anymore.
Gameplay-wise, sorry but just be more aware/ get good? Every series has its quirks/uniqueness and Persona/SMT isn't very different. Trying to impose impose/change certain features that to be more like what you would find in other games would just eventually end up creating generic jrpg #734734783.
Story-line wise, I guess the design choice here is that the game is telling you that the main character you see on your screen is actually an extension of yourself. Each character's action/order that you make is delivered through the main character (who acts as your proxy essentially). You are "seeing" the battle/world through your characters eyes, so I think its reasonable to assume that being knocked out = screen fades to black/can't order party members around anymore.
Gameplay-wise, sorry but just be more aware/ get good? Every series has its quirks/uniqueness and Persona/SMT isn't very different. Trying to impose impose/change certain features that to be more like what you would find in other games would just eventually end up creating generic jrpg #734734783.
The mechanic doesn't bother me very much. The only thing that is bullshit is when you first encounter enemies that cast the insta death spells and you don't know about it. Other then that the MC is very durable and enemies don't even attack him very much. For normal battles equip him with a persona that is strong to physical and you are basically good to go.
They added a ton lot of savestate in the dungeon.
They added Level Design in those dungeon.
They made a lot of convenient stuff like being able to swap character during a battle.
Coming back to the entrance to change Persona and stuff is super easy now.
I think those point (and ESEPIALLY the Level Design one) show that Atlus i ready to take those big gameplay change you talk about. I think the fact that the MC is the only one that "matter" for a Game Over is just a characteristic that need you to make ajustement in your strategy.
.... And if you train yourself for 3 hours just STOP and GO SAVE every 30 minutes, why is it so hard ? I like that a potential defeat mean a lot to me personally...
I didn't realise this was still a thing until my MC was hit by a critical Cleave from a Berith just outside a safe room door in the first dungeon. Did more damage than my max HP. Lost about a half hour of progress.
Was not pleased, largely because, being the first attempt through the dungeon with limited resources, there was nothing I could have done to prevent it. It's just bad luck.
Was not pleased, largely because, being the first attempt through the dungeon with limited resources, there was nothing I could have done to prevent it. It's just bad luck.
Let me preface again by saying the MC falling being game over doesn't bother me much, but to the bolded: the game shows scenes not from his perspective, and gives the player knowledge the character wouldn't have. Likewise, your teammates always have something they want you to go do with them for their S-links. They are as active as any other agent in the story. There's really no good story reason they couldn't revive him on their turn.
Besides, all of the turn-based combat is some old-ass stuff designed decades ago that was pulled from pen & paper RPGS and has just lingered and changed some over the years. Two teams forming lines and taking turns hitting each other isn't exactly "canon" in a story sense, anyway.
FWIW, the first dungeon was the hardest for me and plenty of other people too, and I'd guess I'm about halfway in. It gets easier.
You can make turn based systems without RNG. Not saying persona needs to get rid of all RNG - but it's certainly possible. The issue is that no RNG means you need to handcraft more of the battles if you want them to be interesting. Which is why videogames that feature lots of battles like to randomize thing. No RNG usually also means lots of complex interactions and mechanics and you might want to keep your RPG combat system somewhat simple.
Loosing without being able to interact feels bad though. And i say this as someone that loves XCOM and Fire Emblem. I don't usually have problems with loosing progress over a bad roll.
Edit: Cosmic star heroine just came out and has no random based abilities in it's classic turn based combat. It's fantastic.
The interesting RNG that Persona seems to be going for is a lot like XCOM's, really. Low/Med/High chance of something working (which is what, 25/50/75%?)/X% chance to land this shot while the Muton is around that corner. It's the RNG that is a calculated gamble, not the kind that just decides to fuck you without warning.
Edit: Though both games do make you aware you are liable to get fucked over at any moment, it's considerably less tense in Persona because when you die against a non-boss it is in a "wait, what?" way, which I can't be tense about. You kinda have to just shrug your way through that.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
To my understanding when RNG is used here it's to denote whether the game will make enemies use Skill A instead of Skill B, or whether that Skill A can critical you instead of not, stuff like that.
I haven't seen Cosmic Star Heroine, but you are telling me the enemies there are not choosing their skills randomly during encounters and that the effect of their skills are always constant (like, they always hit you instead of you possibly avoiding them, etc etc)?
Linkstrikesback
Member
Ah yes, I must have no interest in anything regarding the RPG side because I think my time actually has value.
Xenoblade, for example, had plenty of tense situations even though losing a battle just dropped you immediately before the battle started. Suggesting that the only way to add tension is to force you to replay segments thereby wasting your time is just silly.
It's not specifically about the time lost, but setting you back 30+minutes doesn't make you improve in persona. If they wanted you to get better, they'd let you be immediately back in the situation where you messed up and force you to reconsider what you did wrong just then. Instead they want you to have to replay a lot of stuff you've already done that had no impact at all on your one mistake, which again, is a bullshit waste of everyone's time.
The deaths from instant kill/your mc got hit by a critical and therefore multiple attacks are bullshit and largely out of the players control, and I don't see how you can defend them.
Xenoblade and bravely default are good examples of games that did this right. In xenoblade, if you lose a battle, you get put right back before it occured to work out what you did wrong and adjust accordingly. In bravely default, you get put back at the entrance to the floor you were on.
The tension in those games comes from whether your strategies will work, not because you're worried you'll have to replay the last hour of gameplay because you got unlucky. There's no excuse for forcing that nonsense on players.
DeadPhoenix
Member
I don't know about attacks missing or criting, but from what little I know,(only like 3 hours of play time in it myself) status effect skills are random, and success chance changes with various factors during battle (style meter being the big one).
The skills themselves: no crits, status effects are not random but follow another system, ect.
You start all battles with full rescources (HP, items, skills, ect). On the other hand all skills have very limited number of uses you need to refresh during battle ect.
I don't want to derail the thread. It's just a nice example of turn based system without much randomisation.
TheRedSnifit
Member
You can't eliminate it, but you should consider whether it can be negated. In Fire Emblem, for example, being able to choose your fights means you can avoid bad RNG or, at the very least, mostly negate the effects (like fighting an enemy with a high-ish crit chance by using a character that can tank the extra damage). This also allows for risky strategies, like attacking an enemy even though the odds are stacked against you, which makes battles more interesting. You'll still have bad RNG now and then, but you can easily choose a playstyle that prevents it from being tremendously harmful.
Persona 5 doesn't have that level of control. And it doesn't need to, I'm not saying it should be a strategy RPG, but it needs to acknowledge this. But instead we have a game where the only reliable strategy is "Kill everything before they get a turn," and if that's not possible (and it often isn't because of things like the janky stealth mechanics and enemy spawns) then all you can do is pray to RNGesus that the enemies don't target the MC.
That's not the only reliable strategy in P5 though.
AzureFlame
Member
Because the game wants to be challenging which is always a plus.
TheRedSnifit
Member
There are some pretty early-game enemies that can cast Mudo. Don't kill them right off the bat? Better hope they don't hit the MC with it!
And you don't need to kill them. You can knock them down or cast a status effect to take them out of play.
Also they're not in every battle...
31GhostsIV
Banned
Just had this happen to me in palace 5. Joker got one-hitted out of the blue, and I hadn't been in a safe room for just under an hour.
I should at least get the option to start the battle again, not be forced to back track to the last save room. In fact, having played Yakuza 0 a couple of months ago, I'm a bit tired of dated save mechanics in Japanese role playing games in general. Put a bloody autosave in.
I should at least get the option to start the battle again, not be forced to back track to the last save room. In fact, having played Yakuza 0 a couple of months ago, I'm a bit tired of dated save mechanics in Japanese role playing games in general. Put a bloody autosave in.
If you don't want to pay attention to saves or managing your resistances defenses etc... you can always switch to Survival mode.
Now, the game can still fuck you out of the blue at times sure, but if you do the things mentioned above it really won't be an issue.
toddhunter
Member
So how is that different to any game ever if it isn't about the time lost?
* TW3, ride for 20 minutes, burst into a fight you are not prepared for, die. Go back 20 minutes and get asked to ride again through the same boring landscape.
* Mario, fall down a hole at the end of the level, get sent back to the start of the level. You could have used the midpoint flag, but of course just like in Persona 5 people will apparently see it but forget to save their progress. Should they instead drop you back on the other side of the hole to try again?
* Assassins Creed ... oh right you can't really fail, just try again until you get it right and we'll automatically make it easier for you each time too.
Guess which of those three games is utter garbage. Persona 5 has a fail state, this is true. If you fail, you get to play that part of the game again, this should actually be a joy and in P5's case it is.
So the only real thing you can question is the ratio of failure to replay time. Some people might argue this is too high in P5 because they don't enjoy battles that much. This is fair enough, but is opinion, not something that needs to be changed as a wrong design and there are already difficulty levels included to take care of it.
I'd also suggest that the people really complaining, those losing "an hour," are following a guide and trying to clear the first dungeon in one day. You should never be losing that much time if you are playing the game normally.
TheRedSnifit
Member
And if they get a turn . . . ?
Again, stop comparing solo games with rpgs where you have a dman party people that make no sense... That's just show how much you know nothing about rpgs! Even in the damn glorified Baldur's gate you don't have a game over when Mc and it was super brutal game.
KZXcellent
Member
It's a lazy way to make the game harder. Artificial difficulty at it's finest.
They get to attack? You also get to retaliate/revive, etc...
You said the only strategy was the kill asap, which is simply not true.
There's knock down -> negotiation, for a start.
What ? RPGs are solo games as far as i'm concerned, we never talked about MMO or stuff like that.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Because the main character is overpowered and can counter everything in the game.....
How would you have balanced the MC's ability to counter everything?
Genuine question, I'm not saying it is/isn't lazy.
You could stand to be a little more polite when you speak with people, Chaos.
I never thought this was bad strangely. It only adds to the intensity for me. Yeah it's annoying when you die, but it's also rewarding when you manage to pull through. It was only frustrating with P3 because I was new to the series and had no idea about instant death spells or certain status effects. If P5 is your introduction then yeah it's rough, but eventually you will adapt I think!
Save every 30 mins ?
Are you kidding me ? Did you play the damn game ?!
You can't teleport to safety rooms whenever you want, dude.
And Safety rooms are not that often, that you encounter one every 30 mins.
Seriously did you played the game ??! Safety rooms are more than hours appart of gameplay in general, you can taste that in the 3rd dungeon.
Holy shit people get a grip and stop sprouting nonsense because you lack of rpg culture and experience.
you're right but it's upsetting to see people taking example with genre that has nothing with the game, we're going in circle because of the lack of experience in the genre of the participants here. It's like me saying why we don't have a party like in Dragon age in Horizon ? Well simple, it's not the same type/genre of game. end of the discussion, no point of debating over that but it will still upset people and make tons of pages.
TheRedSnifit
Member
You're getting semantic, but I'll rephrase it for you:
Happy?
If they get to attack, they have a chance to cast an instant death spell. That hits your MC? GG. Even if the rest of your party is alive and healthy.
Even if they target the MC the odds of a low level Mudo hitting is super low. I mean, yeah it's possible, but the odds make it an insignificant worry.
Why aren't you grinding outside safe rooms?
KZXcellent
Member
I think it's easily balanced already. I find myself being close to death as the MC regularly. Critical hits, weakness exploits, AOE attacks that get the weakness of one party member leading you to death thanks to multiple 'one more' attacks from the enemy, attacks like Swift Strike and Rampage being dice rolls where you could get hit a bunch of times and get wiped out.
I find the game sufficiently challenging without adding a mechanic where if the MC dies it's game over. It becomes even more ridiculous when have access to Recarm or Revival Beads with your other party members. It at least made sense as a mechanic in SMT Nocturne given your party is made up of demons you summon so I don't have issues with it all coming to an end in that.
I don't think I've ever played any of the newer Persona games and been basically invincible to the enemy. I've had moments where I had a distinct advantage but I still found the game's encounters challenging even on normal difficulties. Adding a bonus mechanic to get a cheap game over out of you doesn't feel necessary at all.
31GhostsIV
Banned
Exactly. Punishment for losing one battle in god knows how many is to retread the last hour or so. The only 'challenge' there is overcoming the frustration.