Heckler456
Banned
Maybe you should finish the game, and see what actually bothered you in retrospect?
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LTTP: The Last of Us - ND still having design issues in the AAA space (No Spoilers)
- Thread starter Jack The Nipper
- Start date
Iamcorrupt
Member
My personal biggest issue with ND is they have this sadistic hate boner for making you complete sections of their games with you running INTO the camera.
This is not fun.
This was never fun.
This is probably why I never liked Crash.
This.
This is not fun.
This was never fun.
This is probably why I never liked Crash.
This.
AI is definitely smarter on grounded - in fact that mode transforms the game to a whole new level IMHO - no more bullet sponges, much harder to find resources etc.
Chuck Norris
Banned
The entire visual image they were going (as said by ND) for is how quickly nature retakes and starts over growing in a collapsed society. And it's not based on nothing. That's what happens.
Here is Chernobyl after 20 years:
And some other examples of abandoned places
http://feedblix.com/abandoned-places-remain-left/
But yeah, it's not realistic cause they could have gotten a Roomba working
Gravy Boat
Member
I think this speaks volumes about the games quality if 'The walking up stairs animation isn't quite right' and 'A cars driving animation (for a car you're not even controlling) is too smooth in one 2 minute section right at the very beginning of the game' are two of your biggest complaints.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
They missed out on excruciatingly long load times and a robust microtransaction platform.
I'll still never understand the negative E3 comparison.
I watched the E3 demo countless times and when i finally played the game i experienced every single thing i saw in that demo (over like 3-4 playthroughs).
I don't remember load times being a problem - but yeah after a year or so they fucked it with microtransactions. At least the vanilla multiplayer was flawlessly balanced.
Tlou mp is one of the best mp I've played in the last Decade. My second favorite 3rd person MP after Socom.
The entire visual image they were going (as said by ND) for is how quickly nature retakes and starts over growing in a collapsed society. And it's not based on nothing. That's what happens.
Here is Chernobyl after 20 years:
And some other examples of abandoned places
http://feedblix.com/abandoned-places-remain-left/
But yeah, it's not realistic cause they could have gotten a Roomba working
Spot on. It's meticulously researched and realistic. ND don't just make everything up.
Generally I can't agree.
A.I. partners are never, ever quite right. Fallout 4's, for example, looked awful (going by streams I watched they got in the way too much).
I can't think of another development team/franchise that does contextual instances as well as Naughty Dog.
So I agree with the stair running thing. Looking at a character's animation running double-time is weird and it can take you out of the moment but, again, I can't think of any other game that does it well. It doesn't stop at stairs either, even walking up inclines sees a break of immersion in the majority of AAA games. It's just awful all-round.
I don't remember driving a vehicle in The Last of Us.
As for your final point...what's the point of keeping things clean when you're more involved with survival? I expect the cast moves about way too much to worry about cleaning. I mean, in that world, what would you do...shine your brass or be fearful for your life? Non-issue.
The other issue is that...well, didn't offer examples of other developers doing a better job. There might be a game I have not experienced that covers your bases.
I get the game isn't perfect in all aspects but it's the best overall package, isn't it? Plus a multiplayer mode to die for. Which developer does this type of game better than Naughty Dog?
A.I. partners are never, ever quite right. Fallout 4's, for example, looked awful (going by streams I watched they got in the way too much).
I can't think of another development team/franchise that does contextual instances as well as Naughty Dog.
So I agree with the stair running thing. Looking at a character's animation running double-time is weird and it can take you out of the moment but, again, I can't think of any other game that does it well. It doesn't stop at stairs either, even walking up inclines sees a break of immersion in the majority of AAA games. It's just awful all-round.
I don't remember driving a vehicle in The Last of Us.
As for your final point...what's the point of keeping things clean when you're more involved with survival? I expect the cast moves about way too much to worry about cleaning. I mean, in that world, what would you do...shine your brass or be fearful for your life? Non-issue.
The other issue is that...well, didn't offer examples of other developers doing a better job. There might be a game I have not experienced that covers your bases.
I get the game isn't perfect in all aspects but it's the best overall package, isn't it? Plus a multiplayer mode to die for. Which developer does this type of game better than Naughty Dog?
Wow...destroyed beauty. The fine-detail is amazing.The entire visual image they were going (as said by ND) for is how quickly nature retakes and starts over growing in a collapsed society. And it's not based on nothing. That's what happens.
Here is Chernobyl after 20 years:
And some other examples of abandoned places
http://feedblix.com/abandoned-places-remain-left/
But yeah, it's not realistic cause they could have gotten a Roomba working
xenorevlis
Member
I think one of the biggest issues you seem to overlook is that the game is originally for PS3, and thus they were hugely limited by RAM, yet still delivered incredible visuals, audio, and animations. Let's explore this further...
As for your other point of contention later in this thread... the fact that you don't enjoy the combat is telling. If you can't enjoy the combat in this game and want it removed, maybe you shouldn't be playing the game. I love it, to be honest, and it's why I played so much of the online (and still do). It is the main thing you do in this game. Combat and survival.
I know you later cited Half Life 2 and Halo 3, but in a way that made little sense. How about actually mentioning more of these "other AAA developers" for each point? HL2's physics (puzzles) are a core element. Not all games should be designed around this.
Please cite better examples of how to handle this. I agree with them getting in the way,though over several playthroughs it has happened to me less then a handful ol times, but they are usually very useful to distract enemies or help you in tight spots.
These are usually intentional for transitioning between environments, again thanks in part to the limited RAM. In Uncharted 4 this has become a lot better, though in most "AAA" games characters warp or it cuts and they are suddenly where they need to be.
More harking on something that is limited by RAM, but also you are playing as Joel. Joel is not going to skip and jump down stairs as YOU see fit. He is an older dude, trying to survive while doing something important.
This nitpick is beyond unreal. You do not drive vehicles in this game and there are gameplay portions and cutscenes where cars move correctly. Including during the intro. Then when you're in the city. Then when you leave Bill's town. Etc.
Your assumptions have already been proved as largely wrong, and/or you are misinformed (when you first enter the abandoned areas it is brought up in dialog). The outside world has been bombed, looted, and mostly abandoned as it is in fact filled with infected, even of they couldn't show off legions of them hanging out and playing poker.
As for your other point of contention later in this thread... the fact that you don't enjoy the combat is telling. If you can't enjoy the combat in this game and want it removed, maybe you shouldn't be playing the game. I love it, to be honest, and it's why I played so much of the online (and still do). It is the main thing you do in this game. Combat and survival.
semiconscious
Member
this. aside from maybe the companion ai issue, these are, imo, extremely strange & picky 'problems' to be finding with the game (or any game, for that matter. i mean, what third-person game does stair-running correctly, op?)
...lukeskymac
Member
If OP is some kind of master ruse I totally fell for it. There is one (1) valid complaint in the entire thing (circumventing AI characters), but it's not something the "rest of the AAA industry" has collectively figured out, and it's even something ND themselves nailed in UC4.
Everything else is just... what? "I don't like that squeezing through is a contextual animation" "Why is this post-apocalyptic city so dirty"... what?
Everything else is just... what? "I don't like that squeezing through is a contextual animation" "Why is this post-apocalyptic city so dirty"... what?
I really liked TLOU. Like, not love.
The thing that really soured me on the game half-way through was the part where
. You have to get spotted for the game to continue. I tried stealthing through the entire section on my first try (on hard difficulty, which, while not too difficult, should not be the first mode you play in), but the enemies kept respawning and respawning for so long. I decided to get spotted just in case that worked and sure enough after clearing the guards thereafter, the section was cleared.
The thing that really soured me on the game half-way through was the part where
Ellie first starts using a sniper rifle to help you
Of course it is, it doesn't come even close.
Strangelove77
Member
Wow...stairs. Ok.
xenorevlis
Member
Hey man, he recorded 8 minutes of going up and down the stairs. Can't deny that! Also he can't seem to figure out how to share the video from his PS4. STAIRS, MAN. GOTTA SKIP AND JUMP ON STAIRS!
Don't worry, Jack. I don't hate you or anything. You're just amusing. At least you made the Drawn to Death OT <3
Except the mechanics are great, you just didn't put enough time into learning the intricacies of the combat system. I've replayed it 9 times now and never get bored.
AudioEppa
Member
Even if what you listed is I'd consider nitpicking. It's still valid points because it's what you personally notice enough to effect your experience.
For myself those things don't bother me. And even if some of it did, it won't change the fact that The Last of Us my second favorite game of all time, behind Uncharted 4.
For myself those things don't bother me. And even if some of it did, it won't change the fact that The Last of Us my second favorite game of all time, behind Uncharted 4.
InsaneTiger
Member
I've read through the OP rant several times and I don't understand what he wants. He is extremely nitpicky about a lot of issues. I mean, it's a game so there is only so much you can do in the name of realism before it becomes stupidly hard or it becomes an interactive story with holding the stick up and pressing X occasionally.
Lynd7
Member
I don't think I realised that at the time, but it is annoying. The thing I did encounter though was
the stupid sniper that you have to go towards when your with Henry, I thought the obvious solution was to get close and then throw a grenade or take out whoever was shooting, but you cannot do this. I feel that was somehow a massive oversight, theres no way someone didn't bring this up in play testing.
Similarly, if you
go up the house and try to look at what's inside the room without going in, the room is empty. Once you go in, you are immediately punched from the side by an enemy that appears from nothing.
leave the door closed or something.
xenorevlis
Member
Reading all this stuff, by the way, prompted me to play a portion of TLOU just now. I was able to go up and down stairs a different speeds and even while sideways, move in more than just "two speeds", the AI worked against me and Ellie to rush and flank, and Ellie prompted me to look left, behind me, threw a brick, gave me a health pack, and stabbed someone who had grabbed me. All the while I was wrecking enemies. Man, I can't wait for part 2. I almost forgot the game had a 180 turn function since that doesn't exist in the multiplayer.
ethomaz
Banned
Perfection is the word I can use for this game.
Gameplay, story, characters, environments, etc... everything is perfect.
Multiplayer is probably the best of the last generation... something that surprised me because most people seems to focus only in the single-played perfection.
BTW most of your issues I did not get because they did not exists: stairs didn't works like you described, AI is pretty smart, vehicles, contextual stuffs, etc.
Can you give us any real complain?
Gameplay, story, characters, environments, etc... everything is perfect.
Multiplayer is probably the best of the last generation... something that surprised me because most people seems to focus only in the single-played perfection.
BTW most of your issues I did not get because they did not exists: stairs didn't works like you described, AI is pretty smart, vehicles, contextual stuffs, etc.
Can you give us any real complain?
TyphoonStruggle
Member
New name for the OP. Jack the Nitpicker
Shang
Member
Naughty Dog has some excellent storytellers and graphic artists, and even very competent game designers working out their core combat systems, but its games are becoming more boring as the years go on.
Often, whole sections of their games are essentially hallways designed to force the player to listen to their partner talk. There are dozens of little time wasters like moving a dumpster, or a ladder, or helping someone up a wall, etc.
At least it kind of fit the somber tone of The Last of Us, but in Uncharted 4 it just feels off. I appreciate the characterization in these games, but they need to figure out a way to make the stories and gameplay have a symbiotic relationship, rather than the gameplay taking hits for the sake of the story.
Also the dialogue options in Uncharted 4 were dumb and stupid
Often, whole sections of their games are essentially hallways designed to force the player to listen to their partner talk. There are dozens of little time wasters like moving a dumpster, or a ladder, or helping someone up a wall, etc.
At least it kind of fit the somber tone of The Last of Us, but in Uncharted 4 it just feels off. I appreciate the characterization in these games, but they need to figure out a way to make the stories and gameplay have a symbiotic relationship, rather than the gameplay taking hits for the sake of the story.
Also the dialogue options in Uncharted 4 were dumb and stupid
Ascenion
Member
I detest TLOU but even I couldn't be this nitpicky. If you look for something wrong in basically anything you will find it. TLOU is the one ND game there really isn't much wrong with. The combat isn't shitty for once (like Uncharted aside from 4) because you really shouldn't be engaging in it and it reflects that. The universe and characters are believable, it's pretty impeccable as a title. And I hate that game simply because it existing deprived me of a better Uncharted 3 in my mind and then led to a weaker Uncharted 4. The "flaws" you've found, I don't think they exist. The only real complaint is that the game has no replay value. Everything it offers can be had in one go, but this is true for all ND games and is what keeps them on that subtier below Rockstar, Bungie and Nintendo.
xenorevlis
Member
I wouldn't go that far. Enemies can be dumb, especially in lower difficulties (and you can get trapped momentarily by AI companions). When you hit a stairway head on the characters try to hit each individual step so it's a nitpick, but it exists. The vehicle stuff I can't get behind. Maybe he felt the ride with Sarah was too smooth?
I played it well after the fact. It's better than the Uncharted series but merely good, not great. I like the shootouts (with humans) but the other stuff with Clickers and such felt imprecise. There was a visceral element to the gun bouts that felt disrupted with other enemy types in a way I didn't like. Stealth was okay but was easily cheesed.
Storytelling is good but the story is super average. Dialogue flirts with decent and sometimes rough.
Presentation was wonderful though I thought the menus for upgrades and such kinda blew.
Played PS4 version.
Storytelling is good but the story is super average. Dialogue flirts with decent and sometimes rough.
Presentation was wonderful though I thought the menus for upgrades and such kinda blew.
Played PS4 version.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
That's because they couldn't to making U4 an actual Uncharted game.
I can see the vehicle complaint. Like, it's obvious there isn't a proper driving model behind vehicle movement. The game engine is given simple movement commands like move to coordinates [x,y,z] at 40mph, rotate 20 degrees in 1.5 seconds (or something along those lines). That's what it feels like anyway.
And that's understandable since it's not a driving game.
And that's understandable since it's not a driving game.
xenorevlis
Member
Except, you literally push a pickup truck that rolls on four wheels. It doesn't just rotate from the center.
https://youtu.be/2bbdJZUHmJs
I've actually replayed it more times than most single player games.
Ascenion
Member
I've wrestled with this notion for a long time especially after all the threads with people defending it as an Uncharted game. It is but it isn't. It just reeks of you could've done this better.
Adjusting the point of rotation is rudimentary as well. I don't claim to have a clue on how it is handled exactly but it just feels like pretty simple movement physics are used instead of a more advanced vehicle model that properly takes tire positions etc. into account and I'd guess that's what OP is pointing out as well.
But again this is getting into the territory of the nitpickiest nitpick ever nitpicked. The vehicle movement is fine for a game that has 10 minutes worth of vehicles in it.
I dunno. I played through it five times and enjoyed it every time. Especially on easy mode.
Moon Presence
Member
It's funny what people make up to not like something. A simple "meh, I'm not feeling it" would do a better job than the examples OP mentioned, aside from the companion AI.
I got the feeling that proper A-tier Uncharted set pieces were too expensive / time consuming for the level of fidelity they were going for. I don't see why they would have stopped at 1* (the convoy chase, easily the highlight of the game) if that wasn't the case. The pacing of the game was screaming for another one or two action scenes of that scale and intensity.
Or maybe it was purely a pacing and/or tone decision, in which case I couldn't disagree more with it.
*There are quite a few nice set pieces but nothing comes even close to that level.
As already covered in the thread, those "dull moments" are masked loading screens.
Would you prefer a non interactive and immersion breaking fade to black then reappear with the characters magically in a new room?
To Far Away Times
Member
TLoU was the one time Naughty Dog got it right post Crash Bandicoot. They made the story match the gameplay and the gameplay was much better than designed and executed than Uncharted to begin with.
Vital Tundra
Member
It's far from perfect for sure, but not for the reasons you suggest for me. I really liked the game but it's design is the reason why I think Uncharted 4 isn't a very good game at all. I think that says a lot for me
Bronetta
Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
I liked TLoU but its not the second coming like most people think it is.
In a game about survival and stealth, my AI partners can prance in front of enemies without being noticed. Its honestly embarassing in action. If youre gonna put AI partners in your games, actually try to design the combat encounters around it. For a studio like ND that puts a ton of care and attention into their games it just feels like a cop out.
Resident Evil 4 pulled it off much better and there was actually a sense of urgency trying to protect Ashley during fights. Ellie instead is an invincible loudmouth brat who comes to your rescue instead.
In a game about survival and stealth, my AI partners can prance in front of enemies without being noticed. Its honestly embarassing in action. If youre gonna put AI partners in your games, actually try to design the combat encounters around it. For a studio like ND that puts a ton of care and attention into their games it just feels like a cop out.
Resident Evil 4 pulled it off much better and there was actually a sense of urgency trying to protect Ashley during fights. Ellie instead is an invincible loudmouth brat who comes to your rescue instead.