Support NeoGAF

[Spunky Monkey]

Let's get this out the way first. Yes Virtua racing had the SVP chip and codemaster games had the J-Cart.

But loads of Snes games had extra chips in them for all sorts of things from mode 7, to wire frame bosses in Mega Man. Sometimes the chips allowed games to do things the Snes was never capable of others they just seemed to be because they could do a cool effect that wasn't necessary. Even launch games had them.

But why did the Mega Drive not get such chips in its games? Whilst it was more powerful of a system there was many things it still couldn't do that Snes versions of these chips could.

 

[Jamix012]

Virtual racing did. I don't know why nothing else did though

 

[Htown]

Why make special chips when you can just create a console add-on?

 

[Blackpuppy]

The Sega Genesis had a pretty beefy cpu and didn't really need extra hardware.

There are homebrewers who have a Starfox demo working on vanilla Genesis hardware.

 

[ReyVGM]

The SNES didn't need cart chips for mode 7. The reason the SNES needed extra chips for certain effects was just to help the SNES CPU with extra calculations to achieve those effects without the console dropping to 1 fps.

The Genesis CPU was almost 3 times faster than the SNES one, so they didn't really need any help with extra calculations.

 

[Deadpool_X]

Because they already had Blast Processing.

 

[cireza]

Because the console was well designed and Sega did not try to cheap out on the hardware.

This console still amazes me when I look at games that were released at the very beginning, and what was available in the later years.

Such an incredible gap.

 

[Zophar]

I seem to recall there actually being market reasons handed down from Sega themselves discouraging their use to keep costs down. But this doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, seeing as they regularly let costs bloat up to $90/$100 USD with high memory RPGs.

 

[ReyVGM]

Because the console was well designed and Sega did not try to cheap out on the hardware.

Don't be so ignorant.

 

[cireza]

Don't be so ignorant.

Don't be so rude and explain yourself

 

[ReyVGM]

Don't be so rude and explain yourself

I could say the same about your statement.

 

[cireza]

I could say the same about your statement.

I said two things :

Genesis hardware was well designed.
SNES weak CPU was a way to reduce cost.

Seems pretty clear to me. If you disagree, then explain why, rather than telling me that I am ignorant. Thank you.

 

[entremet]

The Sega Genesis had a pretty beefy cpu and didn't really need extra hardware.

There are homebrewers who have a Starfox demo working on vanilla Genesis hardware.

It used the well known Motorola 68000, which was used in arcade hardware and earlier Japanese PCs, so there was also a lot of familiarity with the CPU too.

 

[ReyVGM]

I said two things :

Genesis hardware was well designed.
SNES weak CPU was a way to reduce cost.

Seems pretty clear to me. If you disagree, then explain why, rather than telling me that I am ignorant. Thank you.

No, NOW you explained yourself a bit better. Before you were just flaming.

 

[cireza]

No, NOW you explained yourself a bit better. Before you were just flaming.

Nope.

What is the difference between this :

Because the console was well designed and Sega did not try to cheap out on the hardware.

And this :

Genesis hardware was well designed.
SNES weak CPU was a way to reduce cost.

I don't see any. I am not the one who barged in claiming to someone I have never met that he is ignorant.

 

[s_mirage]

Not sure. Aside from enhanced 3D ability, extra audio channels, bitmap to tile conversion, graphic decompression, etc, could have been useful features of an enhancement chip.

It's strange that they weren't used when they were extensively on the SNES. Similarly, a number of publishers seemed to afford their SNES games extra ROM capacity compared to the Sega equivalents. I wonder if Nintendo were subsidizing cart production, or conversely, Sega were charging more and profiting from it.

 

[ReyVGM]

Nope.

What is the difference between this :


And this :


I don't see any. I am not the one who barged in claiming to someone I have never met that he is ignorant.

There's a big difference. One is a drive-by ignorant post, the other is not.

The SNES CPU was more powerful, the fact that it is slower doesn't mean they "cheapened out".

I could say the same thing about the Genesis sound chip. Sega was cheap and used a old and cheap sound chip.

 

[Oemenia]

Because the console was well designed and Sega did not try to cheap out on the hardware.

This console still amazes me when I look at games that were released at the very beginning, and what was available in the later years.

Such an incredible gap.

Some games on the system released later were colourful enough to look like SNES games.

 

[John Kowalski]

I said two things :

Genesis hardware was well designed.
SNES weak CPU was a way to reduce cost.

Seems pretty clear to me. If you disagree, then explain why, rather than telling me that I am ignorant. Thank you.

Cheap CPUs are well designed too

 

[cireza]

There's a big difference. One is a drive-by ignorant post, the other is not.

I disagree. Turn it however you like it, Rey from VGM, it is the same thing that was said in both cases.

The SNES CPU was more powerful

First time I hear this.

Some games on the system released later were colourful enough to look like SNES games.

Nothing comes close to Donkey Kong Country or Seiken 3. But the color palette is a different topic.

Cheap CPUs are well designed too

Talking about the overall console, not CPU only.

 

[tsumineko]

I'm going to say it's because the Megadrive's CPU was a lot more capable than the SNES's and so didn't need help with processing.

 

[dogen]

Cheap CPUs are well designed too

The CPU individually perhaps, but when that many games have slowdown I'm not sure I'd call it well designed.

 

[ReyVGM]

Cheap CPUs are well designed too

Not only that, but how does he know that maybe at the time they COULDN'T have made the SNES CPU faster or else it would overheat?
People think it's like a PC or something that you just buy extra fans or something?

Also, that graphical "gap" between early and late Gens games happens with pretty much every console, including the SNES. They are making it sound as if the Genesis is some genious piece of machine that performed magic and made later games look better.

Take a look at the early Final Fantasy 4 and the late Chrono Trigger, there's a major gap there too.
It's not Gens exclusive.

 

[nkarafo]

Nothing comes close to Donkey Kong Country or Seiken 3. But the color palette is a different topic.

Toy Story looks even better than DKC imo, and the Genesis/Mega Drive version is the best one. There's also Sonic 3D Blast.

The Genesis had indeed a much better CPU. There's a Wolfenstei 3D homebrew that looks and runs much better than the official SNES version.

The SNES had other things going for it though. More colors, some hardware based effects and better sound.

 

[dogen]

Not only that, but how does he know that maybe at the time they COULDN'T have made the SNES CPU faster or else it would overheat?
People think it's like a PC or something that you just buy extra fans or something?

Also, that graphical "gap" between early and late Gens games happens with pretty much every console, including the SNES. They are making it sound as if the Genesis is some genious piece of machine that performed magic and made later games look better.

Take a look at the early Final Fantasy 4 and the late Chrono Trigger, there's a major gap there too.

They coulda put a 68k in it, like they'd apparently originally planned.

 

[To Far Away Times]

Gunstar Heroes has a bunch of the SNES Style effects in it but doesn't need any extra chips.

I think the system was powerful enough to do those sorts of calculations without the extra help.

 

[ReyVGM]

I disagree. Turn it however you like it, Rey from VGM, it is the same thing that was said in both cases.


First time I hear this.


Nothing comes close to Donkey Kong Country or Seiken 3. But the color palette is a different topic.


Talking about the overall console, not CPU only.

I'm on mobile so it's a bit hard to quote specifically, but why do you have to mention my name as if that's important? I'm not replying to you do to your name.

And you've never heard that the SNES was more powerful? You've never seen the array of effects the SNES can do (without the aid of special chips) that the Genesis can't?

The SNES CPU was more powerful, although it slower in calculating.

 

[cireza]

The SNES had other things going for it though. More colors, some hardware based effects and better sound.

Pretty much sums up what I think of the SNES.

Toy Story is indeed a pretty impressive game on the Genesis, and also has a few stages that use various effects (kart, 3D). Travelers Tales were very good technically speaking.

And you've never heard that the SNES was more powerful? You've never seen the wide array of effects the SNES can do (without the aid of special chips) that the Genesis can't?

The SNES CPU was more powerful, although it slower in calculating.

Can't agree what that sorry, and totally dislike your tone and being called "ignorant" from the beginning.

I know both consoles very well and played pretty much all the best games from each (probably like many of us here).

And having done that, I would never sum up the situation to : "See that effect the SNES can do and not the Genesis ? The SNES is more powerful". Because obviously, there are things that the Genesis can do, and the SNES can't. It works both ways.

It looks like you are fighting the wrong fight. I simply said that the Genesis has a better CPU, more powerful, more raw power. You can get more out of it. That's what I think, and what I have witnessed during my life playing games on each console. It does not mean that SNES doesn't have other places where it is more capable, but CPU certainly is not one of them.

 

[dogen]

The SNES CPU was more powerful, although it slower in calculating.

...
Doesn't that make it less powerful?

 

[Zophar]

I think it's disingenuous to say Nintendo "cheaped out" on the SNES by using a slower CPU than the 68000, seeing as it was also packed to the gills with custom chips that could do things virtually nobody else could in 1990.

 

[tsumineko]

I think it's disingenuous to say Nintendo "cheaped out" on the SNES by using a slower CPU than the 68000, seeing as it was also packed to the gills with custom chips that could do things virtually nobody else could in 1990.

Didn't they only use the CPU they did so that they could get backwards compatibility with the Famicom, something they wanted during design however eventually dropped? I don't think they cheaped out, they just didn't choose as powerful a CPU as they could for other reasons. Which is a shame.

 

[dogen]

I think it's disingenuous to say Nintendo "cheaped out" on the SNES by using a slower CPU than the 68000, seeing as it was also packed to the gills with custom chips that could do things virtually nobody else could in 1990.

Sure, but it was supposed to have a 68k.. at 10 MHz even. The hardware they went with was likely cheaper.

 

[The Shadow]

The SNES, like the NES before it, was pretty much designed with additional chips in mind. It had pathways between the cartridge slot and the main board to allow this. The Genesis on the other hand wasn't really designed with this kind of "up-gradable" path. Most consoles weren't, so the NES and SNES were unique in that regard.

This made it easier for SNES developers to add effects, with the con that it was more expensive because they had to buy additional roms from Nintendo, or in the case of some developers like Capcom, develop their own chips. The Genesis on the other hand had a faster CPU, so equivalent effects could be done in software, albeit with a little bit of coding mastery. This is why games like Doom were possible on the SNES (and didn't even appear on Genesis IIRC), whereas games like Hard Drivin' which were entirely software based, ran much better on the Genesis.

I think it's disingenuous to say Nintendo "cheaped out" on the SNES by using a slower CPU than the 68000, seeing as it was also packed to the gills with custom chips that could do things virtually nobody else could in 1990.

It's arguable, because it pushed back the responsibility of adding chips back on developers. It also made the manufacture of SNES consoles much lower for Nintendo. Cheapened out, or shrewd business decision. Neither's really wrong, just depends on how you feel about it.

 

[Sapiens]

I think it's disingenuous to say Nintendo "cheaped out" on the SNES by using a slower CPU than the 68000, seeing as it was also packed to the gills with custom chips that could do things virtually nobody else could in 1990.

They did though. They passed on the cost of their bad initial decisions on the SNES To the consumer by making them pay more for the software due to the add on asic chips.

The snes has a lot going for it, but there was definitely a HUGE compromise on the processor to cut costs and maintain a high margin on per unit price.

Could you imagine the beast the snes would have been if it had a faster processor?

Also, Atari lynx was doing more with sprites than the snes was and it was released a year earlier.

 

[Tain]

There were more SNES games w chips for sure but "loads" is a stretch.

As others have said, the beefy-in-comparison Genesis CPU allowed more flexibility. Wireframe effects like in Megaman X2 and keeping track of more CPU-stressing actor counts and mechanics (like Mario Kart's DSP use) could probably be done on the Genesis without extra hardware.

 

[Sapiens]

Can we also talk about how the MegaDrive came out two years after the pc engine yet had the ability to only display a fraction of the colours on screen at once?

The worst thing about that system.

 

[Mandoric]

The Genesis was a more balanced design, and its stronger CPU removed the early need for DSP-style math coprocessors which were the majority of early SNES chips.

Later hardware like the SuperFX, SA1, and S-DD1 were phased in late in the SNES's life to provide exceptionally large storage or processing power boosts, in a timeframe where similar software on the Genesis would be targeted at the Sega CD or 32X, or even during the two-year window where Sega had moved on to the Saturn while the N64 was still unreleased.

 

[dogen]

There were more SNES games w chips for sure but "loads" is a stretch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_NES_enhancement_chips#cite_ref-byuu_7-2

Nowhere near as many as the NES, but still a lot.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Can we also talk about how the MegaDrive came out two years after the pc engine yet had the ability to only display a fraction of the colours on screen at once?

The worst thing about that system.

One year. But point taken.

 

[The Shadow]

Can we also talk about how the MegaDrive came out two years after the pc engine yet had the ability to only display a fraction of the colours on screen at once?

The worst thing about that system.

More than anything else, it's probably my biggest complaint about the system too.

In its defense though, games looked better on old CRT TVs with RF or Composite, than they do now in emulation. There was a lot of trickery to fake additional colors or transparency that worked far better on older TVs than they do nowadays.

 

[Sapiens]

One year. But point taken.

Oh wow, thought it was 86, but yeah, weird how great the colour depth was on the PCE for the time. Also, Snes has less on screen colours. Weird.

I would like to know how much money sega saved on that decision and what the hardware engineer must have thought about it.

I also want to bring up that the Neo Geo could only shrink sprites. It couldn't scale them bigger than their default size nor rotate them.

Man, all the 16bit machines were so weird in their trade offs.

 

[s_mirage]

Can we also talk about how the MegaDrive came out two years after the pc engine yet had the ability to only display a fraction of the colours on screen at once?

The worst thing about that system.

Yes, and that could have been easily fixed. IIRC the VDP had the ability to use external colour RAM (as well as extra VRAM), so Sega could have remained cheap while allowing on cart chips to increase the colour palette. The problem? The relevant pins on the VDP weren't hooked up; they were there but connected to absolutely nothing. Not the cart port or the expansion port. That was really short sighted given the existence of the Pc Engine.

 

[Sapiens]

Yes, and that could have been easily fixed. IIRC the VDP had the ability to use external colour RAM (as well as extra VRAM), so Sega could have remained cheap while allowing on cart chips to increase the colour palette. The problem? The relevant pins on the VDP weren't hooked up; they were there but connected to absolutely nothing. Not the cart port or the expansion port. That was really short sighted given the existence of the Pc Engine.

Haha, oh that's so sega.

 

[RAIDEN1]

The reason being is I think that possibly Sega were not convinced by going full-on and supporting specialised chips for the genesis games, they dabbled with it for Virtua Racing found it to be prohibitively expensive, at around about that time as well their big great hope was the 32x and Saturn...otherwise if they were convinced of it's long term benefits they'd have thrown in in when converting Virtua Fighter 2 to the Megadrive/Genesis, maybe a version 2 of that chip or something...the 32x was the focus to bridge the polygonal divide for that console...(in some respects as well as adding in all the fancy effects to give the SNES a run for it's money)

And in anycase games like Starfox for all their visual wonder with the Super FX chip, were already being demonstrated with the release of the Japanese game Star Cruiser? I think from back in 1988 it was showing off how adequately the console could in some respects handle the "future of visuals" aka polygonal models..

 

[Phediuk]

Too expensive to manufacture.

Also, the Sega CD and 32X existed.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Because the console was well designed and Sega did not try to cheap out on the hardware.

This console still amazes me when I look at games that were released at the very beginning, and what was available in the later years.

Such an incredible gap.

Yeah, the SNES not having native polygon support was because it wasn't well designed lol

 

[Phediuk]

Nothing comes close to Donkey Kong Country

Toy Story says hi.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Ironically Toy Story ended up being in some respects the better version on Sega's console than the SNES version!

 

[Phediuk]

Ironically Toy Story ended up being in some respects the better version on Sega's console than the SNES version!

Every respect. Even the music is better on Genesis imo.

The SNES version has loading screens for god's sake. Come to think of it, those were in the SNES version of Mickey Mania too, which was also a total hack-job port.

 

[Sapiens]

Ironically Toy Story ended up being in some respects the better version on Sega's console than the SNES version!

It's really impressive how feature-matched those two versions are considering how different the snes and md were.

Boring assed game, but still.

Sign of things to come.