The French Bernie bros. I can bet that actually some of them will vote with MLP.
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|OT| French Presidential Elect 2017 - La France est toujours insoumise; Le Pen loses
- Thread starter Holden
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The French Bernie bros. I can bet that actually some of them will vote with MLP.
It's quite clear then. Vote for Macron. That's how you prevent Le Pen.
whyamihere
Banned
I mean, if you don't want to vote for Le Pen, you vote for Macron.
Not to be that guy, but the first round was where you got to vote your values. It's Macron v. Le Pen, so stopping Le Pen should be your number one priority. You can come back to vote your values in legislative races and in 2022.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Do people really like Macron's program in and of itself here?
Aside from preventing Le Pen from being president and the statu quo reguarding the EU, do some of you think that he'll be able to improve our situation?
Aside from preventing Le Pen from being president and the statu quo reguarding the EU, do some of you think that he'll be able to improve our situation?
Yeah, but I'm hesitating between Macron and abstention, actually. I know it's contradictory with what I said before, but I simply can't explain it.
Instead of saying they're idiots, you could think that abstention is for many people a way to express their disagreement with the two remaining programs (waiting for the white vote to be recognized), even if they're against Le Pen. Values are sometimes stronger than you think.
whyamihere
Banned
Sure, but the first round was for your values. The second round is to vote against Le Pen. If you abstain, you're not doing anything to stop Le Pen.
Yeah, I've always been told the first round is where you vote for the person you like the most and the second round is where you vote against the one you dislike the most.
Abstaining achieves nothing.
Eolz
Member
For the first paragraph, no, that's really stupid. That's like saying that Melenchon got that far only thanks to the PS fucking up.
For the second, easy: vote Macron. Even if you don't like him, that's the only way to make Le Pen lose.
Most of his program is pretty good (ecology, culture, economy, foreign relations...) , outside of the work part, which is pretty liberal (albeit still a lot less liberal than actual liberal countries like the UK for example). Overall, it's mostly following the previous president's footsteps, but more liberal.
Macron also wants to go way further than just statu quo for the EU. He wants to push it a step further (bigger economy governance, pushing for the EU army that the UK was vetoing since years, etc).
DiipuSurotu
Banned
So what happens after Le Pen loses the second round, can she just retake the FN leadership as if nothing happened?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
It's not clear what the disagreement is, though. You might be very leftwing, and therefore disapprove. You might be economically very rightwing but not racist, and therefore disapprove. You might be simpy too lazy to turn up, but nobody can tell the difference between that and someone who disapproves. It's just not clear what an abstention means; it's an empty gesture.
gutter_trash
Banned
Completely irrelevant if they don't turn up and vote. Same status in my mind as the person who doesn't vote because Les Anges et les Marseillais is on TV that day.
And i cant help but wonder about the so called values of these people if it really makes no difference to them whether Macron or Le Pen is elected.
Ironic seeing all the melenchonistes who want to abstain when the candidate they supported wanted to make voting obligatory...
That's the same thing we say here in Brazil, and frankly I guess in any country with 2 rounds. Abstaining in the second roud is the same as saying both candidates are the same and you don't care which one wins, which is quite weird when one of the candidates is Marine Le Pen.
whyamihere
Banned
And the most important statement has already been made regarding Melenchon in the first round, even if he didn't come out on top. It's already changed left-wing politics in France for the foreseeable future. Abstention doesn't really say anything and making sure Le Pen isn't in office should be a goal for every French citizen.
Your choice is now between the overcooked chicken and a shit pie. Choose wisely.
Another way to look at it, which one can you lobby and influence to your side more? Which one will further the long term goals of your positions better?
Politics isn't about finding your true Scottsman. It's about the long, unappealing, grueling slow march towards progress.
gutter_trash
Banned
the Far-Left do not want to see a Centrist succeed or gain popularity.
the Far-Left rather let the World burn at the hands of the Far-Right just so that the Far-Left can bounce back (partisanly) with more strength
Poliical Scoarched Earth
This is just pure egotism. Abstaining doesn't "express" anything. It just means you wasted your vote. There's no such thing as a perfect candidate or a perfect choice. Democracy is messy.
You want to prevent Le Pen, you vote Macron. It's not rocket science. It's not about how you feel. These are the facts.
whyamihere
Banned
Also, Macron with a left-leaning legislature would probably be okay.
chromatic9
Member
Values and principles come down to which one of the remaining two you don't want in power. If you care about Le Pen not getting in then you have to vote. You lost in the pervious round so accept it
And even then the track record of that happening is not very good. Facists don't like giving up power and have no issues with morality.
History is a barometer here.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Right, but most of the evidence suggests that LR will landslide it, unfortunately. I think people are expecting too much of Macron. I don't think they remember how powerless/irrelevant Mitterand and Chirac were under cohabitation, it's been so long now. He's going to be a figurehead. Figureheads are still important, mind, and Mitterand and Chirac both used the bully pulpit effectively, but the legislative elections will be, I think, much more important than the presidential one in determining France's future - for the first time in a while.
whyamihere
Banned
I agree.
Seriously people. United States of America. Look it up. Read about a recent election here.
http://fortune.com/2017/04/24/macron-campaign-france-hackers/
Seems like they spoke about it today. They'll keep doing it of course, since it's been happening since December.
Ok, let's calm down a bit. Sure, Le Pen is in the 2nd round and she may be a bit like Trump, but almost no other country uses an electoral college system and Hillary would have won if the US didn't have such a weird system. Secondly, polls may have misled some americans, but they have been quite on point with the 1st round and, unless something really weird happens in 2 weeks, the polls for the 2nd round are probably going to be right as well. Lastly, Macron is not an exciting candidate just like Clinton wasn't, and that's worisome, but at least there's still no scandal involving him, there's no "but her emails" or things like that to justify anyone really hating him.
That doesn't mean the french shouldn't worry and think a Macron win is in the bag, but the october election is not a guaranteed foreshadow of may 7th.
whyamihere
Banned
Nice cartogram of the results:
What is this? A DmC boss?Nice cartogram of the results:
My comment had more to do with voter apathy and complacency than a fear of LePen winning - that was what reminded me of last year.
You just know the Russians, or anyone else looking to get Le Pen elected, will find a way, any way, to dig up/fabricate a Macron-gate in a adequately timely fashion. Heck, if that happens, it might even be a legitimate scandal. But even then, pretty much no scandal can make Macron as bad as Le Pen. I would have voted Fillon against Le Pen even with Penelope-gate.
I hope I'm wrong though, cause such a scandal could be the golden ticket for a Le Pen victory.
gutter_trash
Banned
your comment was tired, lazy and unoriginal.
check back a few pages full of false-relativsim
Looks like it is weighted by population.
RPGCrazied
Member
Just heard Russia is now fucking with this election. God, Putin is such a sub human creature.
exmachina64
Banned
They have been for months.
? Alright.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
It seems to me that choosing abstention undersells the threat that Le Pen poses. A lot of people must not be that concerned with how they'll be affected if they can really consider abstaining. Quite a privilege. This is the same thing that bothered me in the US election among green party voters and "Bernie bros".
RPGCrazied
Member
They have? Just heard on CNN, and they even labeled the groups doing it. I thought it was just saying it probably could happen because the US was.
Eolz
Member
Hard to see that in the results.
whyamihere
Banned
two-step authentication fam
The basic reasoning is "the French system is not the same as the US system, plus polls have been accurate so far and give Macron a significant lead over Le Pen, therefore she has little chance of winning", which obviously holds truth...
... But however small her chances are, they are chances nonetheless. I wanna crush her. Hard. Let's not even give her a sliver of hope that she might be able to win now or ever.
I'm going to say this in the most polite way possible as an American.
NOT THE TIME FOR A PROTEST VOTE. A vote not for Macron is a fucking vote for Le Putin. Mate, do not follow the United States on this. DO NOT.
Trickster
Member
There could be literal examples of satan being elected leader of countries, and you'd still see people in other elections going "but muh values"
Yeah voter apathy is a problem, especially with people not wanting to vote because their candidate didn't get to the 2nd round.
Ah that helps to understand it a bit, but I'm still a bit confused. Someone posted this link here before and from it I though that Le Pen should have a bigger bubble in Lille and Strasbourg. That cartogram makes it seems that Le Pen didn't get any populated area and that Macron won miles ahead, but the bloomberg one shows some areas where she won.
AuthenticM
Member
On Le Pen's platform on her website, one of the items is "create a presumption of self-defense". Do you think this is to make it harder to prosecute cops who kill minorities without reason? What other objective could there be behind this piece of legislation?
Red Arremer
Member
I hope you're aware that in most voting systems, abstentions and white votes are rounded up between the two candidates, so even if you don't vote, your non-vote might count towards Le Pen and her potential victory.
Example, with simple numbers, to make you understand how this works.
Let's say you have 100 voters, 26 of them are voting for Le Pen, 25 of them are voting for Macron, and even though the remaining 49 do not want Le Pen, they decide to abstain.
In this case, then, out of the 51 people who are voting, over 50% will go to Le Pen, making her the winner, while less than 50% go to Macron, although only 26 people voted for her, and 74 people didn't want her!
Let's make it even worse. Out of 100 voters, 2 vote for Le Pen, 1 votes for Macron, 97 stay at home. Le Pen wins getting 66% of the vote, while Macron gets 33%.
Abstainers do nothing but skew the numbers. This is especially much worse in elections where there are parliamentary seats to be given out because the representation of parties gets skewed. But it's also bad in elections like this.
If you consider both candidates bad, then take the hit and pick the lesser of two evils.
I imagine citizens as well
20cent
Banned
Oh look the Cold War bullshit with Russia behind the scene again.
Even if it was true, European countries have more to gain to be allied to our neighbor than your country. Europeans (not UK) and especially french population don't want to be americans, except maybe by wearing Nike shoes, watch blockbuster movies and play EA games.
Aside from closing "welcome to immigrants" borders, you should read and follow french politics, everything from Le Pen program is more left than the french "democrats" program. Actually she is very close to Melenchon on every subjects, except that she is not trying to please everyone and being vague about some sensible stuffs. Just like leaving Europe, she is not planning to do it, she is only planning to give the choice to the population. If the population chooses to leave it, then screw whoever says they are not allowed to decide.
As I said before, the Le Pen party was considered evil in the last 40 years and still carries this image, but except for the shitty jokes from Le Pen-senior, anything he said about immigration and economy matters in the past is what the french Left (center) and Right say today. You only know that when you are old enough to remember and watch/read/follows TV debates, speeches, meetings and programs; not by listening 1 minute flash news or BHL editorials. (I am not saying "fake news")
The vast majority of french normal people have shitty jobs without security ("liberal" french left is trying to match the working policies with your beloved country where you can fire anyone easily, not blaming you, it is not how our society worked), pay (very) high taxes and do not invest money, this is the most logical choice when you are not a parisian hipster bourgeois or a clueless student.
Oh and Putin wants his country to be strong, sovereign, and tries to protect his borders and sea connections in an American World Empire TM. Shame on him, burn him!!!!
Jesus....
Putin is also essentially a dictator ffs
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