sensui-tomo
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FTFY
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Taking a look at the LGBT representation in Persona 5 (Light Spoilers)
- Thread starter Burbeting
- Start date
JonnyDBrit
Member
To slightly complicate this further, the main examples I can think of from both those works are ultimately heroes (or allied to our heroes), in spite of the heavy invocation of the stereotype. On the other hand, they're also characters associated with prison, so...
Human Trashcan
Banned
Well it is in Persona! It's especially jarring because some of these confidant routes go from building a friendship to "we're in love now I guess" completely out of nowhere. Ann's confidant route was boring as hell and all of a sudden she's like ILU. What? Why this game is held up as an example of any kind of good writing is truly beyond me.
I'm halfway through her as well and all it's been is some terrible aimless journalism (as it doesn't affect the phan-site poll) and also her bonuses suck.
Edit: Also Lala's right there being the rational one whenever Ohya says something stupid. I'm like, "Yeah, Lala's got the right idea, you fucking trainwreck."
Oh yeah that One Punch Man guy was real real bad. Only thing I remember from One Piece is Bon Clay and Ivanakov( is that their name?). While I'm sure it's played up as more of a joke, they didn't bother me cause they are at least treated with respect by Luffy. Though now I just remembered Okama Island so scratch that, that is awful.
Are you talking about that specifically in relation to Persona 5 or the series in general?
I'm gonna start with the second question cause that's a bit easier to answer. Because TLOU already
has LGBT positive characters within it
As for the former question... it's tough. I think in Atlus's case, they couldn't afford to go down this path in general. Their recent LGBT representation has been questionable even before P5, and they really needed to prove that it was the result of flawed execution, rather than malicious intent. The flamboyance isn't a huge issue honestly, there are flamboyant gay men and it would be unfair to avoid this aspect altogether in fiction, but it's a symptom of the bigger problem that these "characters" have no character other than the gay stereotype. Character depth besides this would help a lot. But Atlus really needed to provide an unambiguous, definitive answer as to if they are for, or against the LGBT community, and I don't think a sexual predator of any kind would fit the bill.
The "Okama" stereotype seems very pervasive in Japan, and there seems to be little distinction between gay men and transwomen. Many people don't understand that you don't have to be feminine if you're gay.
That doesn't make it right. Japanese have conservative and liberal mindsets depending on the person like every other human being, but negative stereotypes like that should not stand just because 'its a thing' that is allowed.
You have a choice to just be friends or pursue a relationship with them.
Agreed. I love Persona 5 and it's most likely going to be my game of the year. Thankfully these mentioned scenes have no actual bearing on the story, but regardless of whether or not they are important, I wholeheartedly agree that they did not need to be in the game at all.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
What I take away from that, other than the questionable stuff, is that this game's writing is not that good. Everything is an evolution, but the writing just seems lame.
Like Persona 4. You can max everyone without dating anyone (though why would you)
You can be friends with everyone if you want.
the writing is good in general, but certain topics are not handled well. its not a matter of the writing but the portrayal in certain instances which is off putting
metalslimer
Member
I want to say the localization should have cut this shit because none of the homophobia matters at all to the story at all, but it's better that they don't just censor it and keep perpetuating this shit. As I have moved further away from beating the game, I have to say I can't continue to support games that pull this shit. I hope the development team actually is listening.
You can't have a game with a Penis chariot and be worried about controversy.
You can't have a game with a Penis chariot and be worried about controversy.
encephalon
Member
Perhaps Kanji's development can now be better understood in the context of 5. The gay men in 5 are the "gay" in the "whew, thank God he's not gay" plot line. This is what the developers think being gay would actually mean.
Thanks guys! I'm just not a fan of a couple social links because they seem a little creepy to me, so I'd rather not go for romance in them if I can. It wouldn't stop me from playing the game or anything if I couldn't but that's nice to hear.
It's weird to me that Persona as a series hits so many notes right and then does a 180 on certain things. The main plot dungeons usually has very poignant messages that are delivered well and the characters reactions and emotions are on point. Then there's...the rest of the game, that often clashes against its own tone/themes or just seems plain insensitive if not borderline hypocritical.
I mean they go from
a very serious display of power abuse and sexual harassment and how damaging it is in dungeon one to Yusuke blackmailing Ann to pose naked literally the next scene, and it being played as funny. It's...weird and it jumps out because of how well done the first arc was, in my opinion.
Is the dungeon writing handled separately from the rest of the game or something?
That's why it kinda bugs me when people say it doesn't "make sense" for certain characters to be gay. I mean, it doesn't really make sense for every female character to wanna jump the mc either, especially older women who I'm assuming could face criminal charges for doing so, but here we are.
I feel like Yusuke could've easily been a romance option, just throw in a blushing confession and we're good to go.
It's okay when it's not painted in a positive light and/or there are consequences for said characters' behavior.
When a character is literally being homophobic for comedic value, like Yosuke, the game and the writers are telling you that the character's homophobia is funny and not harmful, and therefore an acceptable thing.
aspiegamer
Member
The original stereotypical gay joke with Ryuji was riiiiight on the border of obnoxious and humorous. Had that been entirely isolated I might have shrugged it off, but the beach scene cemented the bad faith for me.
I also thought the boat scene was awesome. There's a lot of humor in Yusuke being entirely oblivious to the situation, too. Can see how people might have taken it the wrong way, though.
You don't have to romance anyone, thankfully. Your ending may be slightly different (by just a few lines of dialogue) if you go with multiple people. I think it was getting stuck at 7 in P3? Yeah that's gone.
This actually isnt the case. In many cases its the opposite where if your super macho and overly manly, your gay. So its not just a case of being feminine.
Human Trashcan
Banned
P5 specifically because I can't speak to any of the others with great specificity. I watched 4 through the GB ER, and while I do recall thinking it's a lot better overall, it's been a while. Never played much of 3, and none of 1 and 2.
Haven't played Persona 5 yet, and this is making me have second thoughts. (Second thoughts about P4G as well.) Even if Japan is behind the west on LGBT+ representation, that's no excuse for negative stereotypes being present in the Persona games, especially considering the now flourishing international audience for them. Though I wish that more reviews would mention it, and as more than just a footnote, as pressure from western gaming markets would certainly make Atlus think twice, and possibly even promote dialogue in Japan.
Its baked in as an "anime thing", because of stereotypes present in Japanese media, usually in the same fashion.
It is harmful and should be called out, but it should probably be called out everywhere instead of just making it an Atlus thing which kind of takes away from a broader discussion about tolerance portrayal in gaming.
JonnyDBrit
Member
It can even be an inverse proportion thing at times. So while being super macho and over manly gets coded as gay, being immensely effeminate can eventually hit a point where a character is taken absolutely seriously and is treated as the biggest badass around, while still not being gay. Admittedly, more of a villainous than heroic trope. Prime example: Frieza from Dragonball
I have a strong feeling that the relationship between Atlus USA and Japan is weak.
What was their line about not being able to use the share button on PS4? "Our masters in Japan don't get it" or something
Hours Left
Member
You laid it out very well OP.
This regression of positive LGBT representation, and the troubling attitudes of many characters in P3-5 toward and from LGBT characters is extremely disappointing. I was hoping that all the attention given to Kanji and Naoto's storylines in P4, and the critique of Yosuke's hateful attitude would have reached Atlus, but it's obvious they don't care.
It's really too bad because the Persona series has a lot of positive aspects, but these ongoing transgressions are becoming harder to just shrug off. Persona is quite popular in gay gaming circles too, and you'd hope the developers would try to reach out to us more, but I guess anyone outside the key demo shouldn't expect much consideration. I'm hoping this will improve in the next instalment, but P6 went from "day 1" to "wait and see" for me.
This regression of positive LGBT representation, and the troubling attitudes of many characters in P3-5 toward and from LGBT characters is extremely disappointing. I was hoping that all the attention given to Kanji and Naoto's storylines in P4, and the critique of Yosuke's hateful attitude would have reached Atlus, but it's obvious they don't care.
It's really too bad because the Persona series has a lot of positive aspects, but these ongoing transgressions are becoming harder to just shrug off. Persona is quite popular in gay gaming circles too, and you'd hope the developers would try to reach out to us more, but I guess anyone outside the key demo shouldn't expect much consideration. I'm hoping this will improve in the next instalment, but P6 went from "day 1" to "wait and see" for me.
And sephiroth. and Sesshoumaru, and tons more. If your effeminate you could be the biggest badass out there while still being fodder for the female fanbase. Of course the western audience would make fun of these folks for their appearance, but it just goes to show how weirdly complicated appearance and culture changes things.
On the other side of the pond its completely fine in many instances. Someone like Dante in DMC3 who might be considered an albino pretty boy with no shirt on is the coolest guy out there.
Which is where Ninja theory's badly reinterpreted version of Donte from DmC came from, becuase they thought people considered Dante's original character design "a joke" which the infamous brokeback mountain slide shows up
Yeah, but in the case of it being mentioned prominently by reviewers and players, then Atlus Japan would receive the message directly - it doesn't need to go through Atlus USA.
It does need to be called out in wider anime too. It seems to be something people have "gotten used to", rejecting the bigotry aspect and seeing it as a quirk from Japan - but its harmful nonetheless. Particularly if you're LGBT+ in Japan, where negative stereotypes are presumably the norm, if we go by what we watch and play in the west.
Shadow Broker
Banned
As a gay man, super not stoked that this is still the stereotypical go-to hand gesture.
Yesterday I was watching a Youtube channel called Rachel and Jun (American Girl married to a Japanese guy)
Anyway,
They asked their Japanese audience how did they feel about the LGBT presence in Japan.
There were a ton of great responses and i learned a ton where gays or Lesbians weren't really ever looked down upon until the western culture influence effected Japan. They have a long history of famous gay public figures.
Anyway, (again)
One of the response were from a gay male I believe. He said something along the lines that you wouldn't know who around you is gay or not just because they tend to keep it to themselves (for reasons) but then you'll go out one day and you see a grown gay man in a sailor suit acting and speaking loudly with gay terms. So this is the only image most people see.
His post reminded me of these two in Persona 5.
Note: my memory is shit so I retold the story the bests I remember it.
Personal story
While I was in the military I was (still am but not as close) cool with a German gay couple and a secretly gay guy and his friend he was dating. They were cool as shit, I learned alot from them, was their designated driver, and they took me to a female strip club for my birthday where they got me the number to one of the... female workers. Good times. Sometimes when I would pick them up from the bar after they've had their fill I would see the stereo types in all their glory. I've learned that they're funny, friendly, funny, fucking funny, and were respectful when they found out I was straight and just there to baby sit. They would in fact make fun of the fact I was straight.
Human Trashcan
Banned
Yeah that was definitely very odd to see them use that line, literally just throwing their superiors under the bus in a way. Given how Atlus is pretty much the last big Japanese studio that can't seem to figure out this whole worldwide release thing, in more ways than one, it seems like a company that doesn't really give a shit about the world outside Japan. They almost grudgingly localize their games, it seems, especially given P5's slipshod localization.
Excellent fucking post, seriously, i had to go search that channel out.
it also makes a lot of sense that at this point a lot of gay subculture comes generally from stereotypes in Japan along with plenty of other interpretations of things(including westerners), since being a monolithic society where being yourself or having a voice of individuality is pretty uncommon.
Having to keep your personal matters to yourself to avoid inconveniencing others or standing out is a very big part of Persona 5 itself....which again brings up the fact that P5 is trying to tell an important message about Japan yet mishandling an important facet of that.
I agree, and it sucks. P3 and P4 really blew me away when I played them back in early high school but it feels like every year older I get, the more annoyed I get by certain parts of them. I'm honestly probably just skipping the beach bullshit outright this time because I really, REALLY could not care less and actively rolled my eyes when they showed it in the reveal trailer.
Also I straight up hate everything about the way they handle Ann.
Frozenprince
Banned
Okama (which isn't their preferred nomenclature anymore but I've forgotten what the other one is and I'm sorry) culture is a distinct entity from Japanese gay culture, they are intertwined but not the same thing.
That's just the impression I've gotten from Japanese media at least, and articles I've read here and there. Maybe the reality in the country is different, and that at least would make it a bit better than I thought. There's still clearly a lot of work to be done, either way.
I'm aware that it's distinct from gay culture, I just didn't think the general population knew that. I'd be glad to be wrong, in this case.
Basketball
Member
you can date older women huh
what's the age gap ?
what's the age gap ?
Forgive my ignorance, but is this a cultural thing with Japan, or what?
I mean, even BotW had a "flamboyant" gay character, albeit in a "macho" construction job. I'm pretty much a straight guy, but I was excited when I thought Kanji was going to figure his shit out and be openly gay in Persona 4. When that never happened, I was flabbergasted. It flirted with it up to the point of almost handling it maturely, and then *poof*.... nothing.
People need to get over it. Some folks is gay. It's fine. Represent them equally.
I mean, even BotW had a "flamboyant" gay character, albeit in a "macho" construction job. I'm pretty much a straight guy, but I was excited when I thought Kanji was going to figure his shit out and be openly gay in Persona 4. When that never happened, I was flabbergasted. It flirted with it up to the point of almost handling it maturely, and then *poof*.... nothing.
People need to get over it. Some folks is gay. It's fine. Represent them equally.
You can date your teacher...you could do it in P3 as well, but its over an MMO and she doesn't find out until the very end that its you. She still tries to get in your pants though for like half a second before she bolts in embarrassment.
I liked Isako's character, she never really grew up at heart, i can kinda relate.
JonnyDBrit
Member
At a root level, Japan still has issues with regards to LGBT representation. Those concepts and ideas will have informed the creators of the game when figuring out their narrative. But ultimately how they chose to use those concepts - especially in a game nominally about how stereotypes and social expectations are bullshit - must be laid at their feet as much as the society that fed them those ideas (particularly as counter examples do exist and have notable places within that culture).
Oh, for sure. Wasn't asking that by way of justification. Just trying to understand. It's generally understood to be taboo to depict folks that way here in the states, and that's in spite of some vociferous anti-LGBTQ segments of the population and political realm. So i was curious how it remains so acceptable to squeeze this stuff in.
DanganRonpa usually has about two or three LGBT characters a game and barring one of them in DR2, they're generally not very offensive. Honestly though, it's pretty annoying to me that games can have themes like "embracing your true self" and "revolt against a society that puts you down" and yet it TOOOOOOOOTALLY glosses over these groups (I mean Persona 4 kinda looks into them before backpedaling at 80 mph) and yet games that have literally nothing with progressive themes have a more diverse cast. There are a couple of reasons I'm not really a fan of the Persona series but this thematic dissonance is a pretty huge one.
Its very important to stress that there are always going to be differing viewpoints. In Japan thre are people who feel being gay is just a fact of life that should be represented, while others who may not be used to the concept or not know anyone who is personally gay generally conflate it with stereotypes of things they have seen in media, which promotes regressive attitudes.
It would be a mistake to label it as a "japan problem" so much as a problem inherent in parts of their society.
Just like the "all women over 30 are old women" stereotype of a mindset based on youthful idolization, tracing back to the mindset of getting old means being useless and worthless to society
It would be a mistake to label it as a "japan problem" so much as a problem inherent in parts of their society.
Just like the "all women over 30 are old women" stereotype of a mindset based on youthful idolization, tracing back to the mindset of getting old means being useless and worthless to society
Wait who's gay/queer in Danganronpa? I can only think of Teruteru but that perv was more of a "anything that moves" trope
Ludger Kresnik
Member
SolicitorPirate
Member
P5 is riding on a lot of the good will built up by P3 and P4. Granted, it's on par with those two games, but they also came out at a time where good writing was the purview of only a small number of devs and writers. In that context, P3 and P4 was incredibly well written games that really pushed the envelope on themes that games could explore.
By contrast, P5 comes out at a time we expect much more from our games, and keeping a standard of writing that was good for the PS2 era simply isn't enough anymore.
Also, Persona 3 has a Social Link where you're sorta complicit (or really just "whatever") in allowing your classmate to try hooking up with his favorite teacher. Shit fucking annoyed me. With P5 it's like, sure, with enough suspension of disbelief I can maybe buy that protag and Kawakami's personal relationship might be a little more than just "student / teacher", but the P3 Social Link with Kenji was way worse cause you don't ever help him realize how much of a creep he was. He just hits the road block the hard way and I say that was well fucking deserved. It was one of the worst Social Links in the series and part of the reason why I think many of P3's characters and Social Links are dated as fuck looking back at it.
sensui-tomo
Member
surprised that atlas didnt try adding someone like Erica(Catherine) as a love interest . Thought she was handled well (but i'm a white dude so i might be wrong on that front, not the best to judge things)
