lvl99 Pixel
Member
is my youtube buffering or is the framerate just bad? this looks kind of unpolished
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Sonic Forces - Green Hill Gameplay
- Thread starter MrBadger
- Start date
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
Nope. Some of us are just Sonic fans that like good games regardless of the perspective. This does not look like one of those.
I don't know if anyone posted this in the thread, but the official Sonic channel has revealed that this is Green Hill in the modern day, and it's supposed to look dead and abandoned as a result of Eggman's industries. You'd think all the plant life and vegetation would be more withered and dead if that was the case...
and Sega really needs to stop thinking they can appease both with one game. Barely anyone cares about all these half-assed Classic Sonic attempts, especially now that they have a different team making Mania, who are obviously more passionate about getting Classic Sonic right.
and Sega really needs to stop thinking they can appease both with one game. Barely anyone cares about all these half-assed Classic Sonic attempts, especially now that they have a different team making Mania, who are obviously more passionate about getting Classic Sonic right.
#bringbackSonicRPG
I want a good game irregardless of 2D or 3D and Sonic used to be my favourite franchise
This is coming from someone who was hopeful after Sonic Generations that the series has found it's way but this game is just getting a tepid reaction from me so far. Hopefully a E3 blowout shows that later stages are better designed because I will admit Green Hill Zone was my least liked level in Sonic Generations.
The last Sonic game developed by Sonic Team was released in 2013.
There is some psychological block at Sonic Team where the designers/programmers refuse to accept that Sonic was conceived to roll down slopes in a ball. "But that's hard to program" holds no water when several fan games did a competent job and this engine they worked on for years, assuming it's more than visuals, had ample time to figure out some sort of adequate physics system.
Nah I'd much rather they give Sonic to one of their better developers, Yakuza Team, Creative Assembly, Atlus, Relic etc
Anyone in Sega would do... wait maybe not the mobile teams, actually some people who worked on Valkyria and Jet Set Radio are there, maybe even their mobile teams then.
Red Liquorice
Member
Is Sonic a time/score attack game or a platform game?
I've never really been fond of any of the Sonic games past the first couple, and I think it's because it's a mish-mash of two different styles of play that seem at odds with each other. The character is all about speed, but that inhibits exploration. You want to have enemies and collectables, but that inhibits the flow of movement (you're going fast, you don't see an enemy and get hit or you miss rings and want to stop and get them).
The design of Sonic when that first game hit was a game changer, but it's always been style over substance for me. I feel like I'm still waiting for that great Sonic game to be made - I just don't know if it's a platformer, or a time attack game?
I've never really been fond of any of the Sonic games past the first couple, and I think it's because it's a mish-mash of two different styles of play that seem at odds with each other. The character is all about speed, but that inhibits exploration. You want to have enemies and collectables, but that inhibits the flow of movement (you're going fast, you don't see an enemy and get hit or you miss rings and want to stop and get them).
The design of Sonic when that first game hit was a game changer, but it's always been style over substance for me. I feel like I'm still waiting for that great Sonic game to be made - I just don't know if it's a platformer, or a time attack game?
IronicSonic
Member
How a 2D games proves anything in 3D space? Nonsense
You can play most of Sonic games in both ways. You explore levels, find best/fast paths then you blaze trough the levels at high speed if you want.
This is true maybe for the first 10 minutes in the game. Then you learn to how to play properly
There are 3D Sonic fans!?
Octavianus
Banned
We shouldn't talk about them.
Stripper13
Member
Sonic was great when it was a platformer based on momentum. It helped that the first few games had great visuals, music and level design too.
The problem with the bulk of the 3D titles, is that they have stripped any sense of sensible momentum out of the games. That's not because it is 3D (I'd argue SA2 did a pretty good job with that), but rather because they rely on far too many gimmicks, including 'boost' meters. Yes, you can go really fast and maintain speed with a good run - however there's little room left for precision or subtlety in the platforming.
There are plenty of people who will defend the time attack/rush style gameplay but it doesn't feel like a Sonic game to me - instead, it feels more like a really amateur racing game at times. That said, I think there are way more bad and/or time attack based Sonic games at this point - so I suppose my thoughts on what it means to be a Sonic game are probably well outdated at this point.
The long wait for Sonic Mania continues...
Telephone Man
Member
Yeah... I'll stick to just hyping Mania.
Nothing in Forces excites me.
And please stop letting Jun Senoue compose 'classic' Sonic music. He's terrible at it.
Nothing in Forces excites me.
And please stop letting Jun Senoue compose 'classic' Sonic music. He's terrible at it.
Sonic Team
Red Liquorice
Member
What is the 'proper' way to play them?
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
not me tbh i legit think all 3d sonic games are shit
Diablohead
Member
Watched it, awful.
-Boost pads with limited range before it forces you to slow down.
-Zero physics going on with the S tunnels, one of them even has a boost pad at the exit point.
-There is no feeling of momentium from anything, even the enemy bouncing feels off somehow.
And then there's the level layout which feels like it was ripped from Sonic 4 episode 1, the bridge at the end is very much a Sonic 4 design choice.
Sonic Generations was a fun game but just like this everything was mostly forced when it came to speed, slopes and boost pads.
-Boost pads with limited range before it forces you to slow down.
-Zero physics going on with the S tunnels, one of them even has a boost pad at the exit point.
-There is no feeling of momentium from anything, even the enemy bouncing feels off somehow.
And then there's the level layout which feels like it was ripped from Sonic 4 episode 1, the bridge at the end is very much a Sonic 4 design choice.
Sonic Generations was a fun game but just like this everything was mostly forced when it came to speed, slopes and boost pads.
TheCongressman1
Member
I'd love to have both, just not in the same game. Please focus on one style of gameplay per game.
Davey Cakes
Member
I just don't get it.
The very first Sonic the Hedgehog was a rewarding momentum-based game. Before you had the spindash you had to build up speed and curl into a ball to get through loops and break through walls. Or, you could seek out springs for a more immediate boost. The physics felt natural.
It was basic but the formula served as a key differentiator from other platformers such as Mario.
As much as I think the entire original trilogy (plus Knuckles) is great, I have to wonder if the addition of more instantly-gratifying speed mechanics in Sonic 2 led to the eventual downfall of the core Sonic gameplay. The later-added homing attack didn't help matters either. Now there's an over-reliance on crutches to keep Sonic moving.
Sega really needs to reevaluate their approach to this series.
The very first Sonic the Hedgehog was a rewarding momentum-based game. Before you had the spindash you had to build up speed and curl into a ball to get through loops and break through walls. Or, you could seek out springs for a more immediate boost. The physics felt natural.
It was basic but the formula served as a key differentiator from other platformers such as Mario.
As much as I think the entire original trilogy (plus Knuckles) is great, I have to wonder if the addition of more instantly-gratifying speed mechanics in Sonic 2 led to the eventual downfall of the core Sonic gameplay. The later-added homing attack didn't help matters either. Now there's an over-reliance on crutches to keep Sonic moving.
Sega really needs to reevaluate their approach to this series.
Velocity:Design:Comfort
Banned
Great post. I wish I had more to add besides that at least it was still sort of fun to do the homing attack in SA1/2 and I'm a lot higher on those games than more GAFfers, but then you look at how it worked in 06 and the garbage Lost World and it's like Jesus, how did they go so wrong? Generations is fun and I like Colors a decent bit but hopefully Forces is worked on quite a bit until it comes out, looking at this footage.
Providing that is Jun Senoue (it sounds like him...the snares are a dead giveaway) I hope he does some music that isn't restrained to this pseudo-classic crap because he's a good musician. What was the last Sonic game he had a big role in that wasn't Sonic 4? It feels like it's been a while.
Right you are. I blanked the Generations soundtrack out of my mind. Probably because it's all remixes
That never occurred to me. That's kind of gross given its function now looks like it's purely to force Sonic through set pieces rather than something like Hydrocity to give him a kickstart.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Sonic colours had them both and made for a fine game.
At this point though, I don't believe Sega have a clue of what made Colours work, and that it even turned out half as good as it did was an entire crapshoot.
Probably one of the important things is the 2d sections weren't even trying to be like classic sonic, instead being 3d boost sonic, but placed on a 2d plane to allow for more puzzle like- platforming in sections where they needed it.
To be honest, I found the 2D levels in Colours to be a bit exhausting. The amount of 2D often feels like a crutch because of how limiting and resource-draining the 3D gameplay is. At some point soon, they need to work out a 3D style that can hold up an entire game.
Linkstrikesback
Member
That's basically never going to happen while Sega isn't willing to make a 2-3 hour 3D sonic on first playthrough, because they made it abundantly clear they're not willing to stump up the cash for a purely boost 3D sonic that is any longer than that.
My friend is the only sonic fan I know and he's never played the 2d ones. To be fair, he's pretty good at them.
Xist2inspire
Member
That's how I've come to feel about the classic series. I'll even throw CD in there with Sonic 1. I know it gets knocked for its level design, and rightfully so in some cases. But when time attacking the mobile port, I realized that in CD, the level itself is the barrier to gaining momentum. Instead of learning how to use the level design to gain momentum like in Sonic 1, in Sonic CD you have to learn what to avoid in order to gain and keep momentum, and thus, time-travel.
Sonic 2 shifted the focus from "momentum" to "speed", as it's far easier to run around in those levels. The spindash is closer to the boost than the peel-out in terms of functionality due to the instant protection is offers from most enemies. Sonic 3 took the exploration aspect that used to be a natural byproduct of the large levels (that were necessary due to Sonic's speed), and made it the key focus with extremely large levels that were almost open-world in nature, but clashed with the time limit. Sonic & Knuckles focused a bit more on platforming, which worked well with Knuckles's skillset. Still, the nature of the series' gameplay makes it a poor fit for precision platforming.
It's honestly why I'm excited for Mania only in an aesthetic sense (gotta love that classic 90s SegaSonic style), and not in a "this is how Sonic should be" sense. I never got why people would say "Sonic should be like the classics!" when the classics themselves were hardly uniform in gameplay focus. Sonic's my favorite series bar none, but it's always been a schizophrenic series gameplay-wise, held together by some of the best aesthetics and music that the industry has to offer.
I think they had the right idea with Lost World, and I imagine they might try something similar after Forces. Like this is the safe game and they'll try and make a working 3D Sonic next time, because 2 failed experiments in a row isn't a good look.
Professor Beef
Banned
That's...a lot of hidden springs.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
I really do feel for Sonic Team. They're piece-mealing out info that isn't too big yet to tease fans, but it's backfiring big time. Everyone's sick of Green Hill and Classic Sonic. I'm sure once we see the third character and the full "hook" for this game, it'll inspire more confidence than remixed Green Hill stage #97 is doing.
I hope I can get my hands on this at E3 at least.
I hope I can get my hands on this at E3 at least.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Or the third character will be an absolute disaster (I know at least half of us are thinking it!) and just make things worse.
Them showing off a 2D sonic that seems pretty much worse in most ways I (and I suspect other fans) care about than sonic mania, isn't doing them any favours.
I wonder how sega would react to Sonic Mania reviewing significantly better than Forces. Wouldn't be surprised if they took it badly.
Ristifer
Member
I don't think people are necessarily tired of Classic Sonic. It's just that the way they're using him, once again, doesn't seem to be up to par with what people are hoping for with that character. Tons of people are excited for Mania, but it's just doing everything right, whereas Sonic Team seems to be off in fantasyland for whatever reason.
That being said, I hope there's much more to Forces, and this chunk isn't reflective of the quality of the entire game. Because I definitely want a better modern Sonic game. But who knows?
Why do you feel sorry for Sonic Team? If they want positive reception, they should put out something worthy of it.
Have you seen the response to Mania?
Is there a reason this game is doing the same gimmick of Generations? 3D Sonic was doing more than fine by the time Sonic Colors dropped
and even Lost World had a lot of neat ideas that could have worked really well with a sequel that leveraged those strengths and dropped the bad parts.
Like, why even botter with 2D sections when Sonic Mania is a thing? smh
I am biased because that's my favorite Sonic game ever
Like, why even botter with 2D sections when Sonic Mania is a thing? smh
I don't think so. The spin dash was just a move that allowed improvements to level design. Prior to its inclusion they were limited by the fact that they could have designed sections of levels where players became trapped because they had no way of building the necessary speed to continue on. The spin dash allows players to get instant speed to escape such situations. It offsets this by requiring the player to be perfectly still for a few seconds; meaning you can't really use it to gain a speed advantage over playing well. If your goal is to go a fast as possible you're not going to spindash much. This is unlike the homing attack and boost mechanics, which give you instant speed with no time cost, and the Generations spin dash which charges in an instant and can be done while moving.
What led to the downfall of Sonic, imo, was a few things.
1. The departure of Hirokazu Yasuhara from Sega. Yasuhara was the lead game designer and director on the Genesis games. He was the main creative hand taking the tools given to him by Yuji Naka and making well-balanced levels that utilized them in a very satisfying way. The levels support multiple play styles and prevent you from abusing mechanics without good skill. In the games that have Yuji Naka's physics but not Yasuhara's level design the drop in quality is very noticeable.
2. The promotion of Yuji Naka as director of the series. As much credit as Naka deserves for his amazing physics code, based on everything I've read he really ddin't have the creative vision for this role and was too focused on self gain. After Sonic 2 was made in the USA he demanded Sega make the next game in Japan with Japanese only staff, and then he was tired of Sonic after only 2 games and wanted to radically change the series into something else. Pretty much the only reason we got Sonic 3 was because his original ideas for Sonic 3 failed to produce results and Sega demanded a game by the holidays. So the mentality of throwing the hedgehog out with the bathwater comes from him.
3. Sega came to believe their own marketing. They marketed Sonic as being all about speed in an effort to differentiate Sonic from Mario. And then when they did focus groups they got a feedback loop of people saying Sonic was about going fast because that's what the marketing said. So they made Sonic even more about speed and made getting speed easier.
I'm not sick of Green Hill or Classic Sonic.
The problem with this level isn't that it is Green Hill. The problem with it is that it doesn't appear to elevate Green Hill in any way. If anything it looks like a step backwards compared to the original Green Hill in design. It's a level that looks like Green Hill but is structurally worse. Plus whoever is composing the music doesn't know what they are doing.
And the problem with Classic Sonic is that it's NOT Classic Sonic. It's yet another half-assed attempt to make something that LOOKS like Classic Sonic but doesn't actually play like Classic Sonic. It's very frustrating. We haven't gotten anything that actually played like Classic Sonic since Sonic Advance 1 in 2002, and the last really well-designed Classic Sonic game was from 1994. And you know, with Generations the level design was good enough to make me willing to settle for that heavily scripted approximation of Classic Sonic; but this level demonstrates a huge backward step in level design. Sonic Mania shows that you can do Classic Sonic gameplay on a modern engine, so I don't understand why they're still trying to fake it in this game.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
As a fanbase, 3D Sonic sounds like hell on earth to design for.
Some people want Adventure Sonic.
Some people want Boost Sonic.
Some people want to play as Sonic's shitty friends.
Some people want deep lore Sonic (this sect clings to 06 as a high point)
Some people want only Classic Sonic design/aesthetics.
No story. Some story. One character. A couple. Which play style? What theme? Modern aesthetic? Classic? Boost? Open world? Linear? Wisps?
As a result, this is what we get. A game that can't commit to any one style, while shoehorning in something "fresh", while having to pander to the Classics-or-bust crowd, while being to afraid to take a risk and settling on the overly worn boost gameplay, now a decade in use. This lack of focus means all things suffer, including Classic Sonic, as we've seen. I'm sure this third character/playstyle will inherit their potential experimental style without committing a full game to it, without fully demonstrating it's full potential because they're stretching themselves so thin.
I'd love to be wrong. But I also understand that developing for 3D Sonic has to be one of the most impossible-to-please jobs in the industry.
This is why Sonic Team should just drop Classic Sonic altogether. It was a nice gesture for the anniversary game, but that era is done. Them continuing to pursue that style will please no one, and never live up to the legendary status of the original games, imagined or not. Let other teams and project tackle classic style as they see fit (Mania) and concern themselves with the most worthy, polished iteration of 3D Sonic. Otherwise they'll continue defaulting to this boost shit since it's the safest gameplay system they can land on.
IronicSonic
Member
They need to hit the ball out the park with that third character. Im fine because I want Forces mainly for Modern Sonic, but if that third character is crap desing, narrative or gameplay wise, the backlash will be epic. Sadly.
From a famitsu interview
[Famitsu]: Will there be any difference between Modern and Classic gameplays?
[Iizuka]: Yes. As a Sonic Team product after a long time, we wanted to provide users at least these two gameplay styles: 3D Sonic's high-speed boost action, and 2D Sonic's classic gameplay. We are co-starring these two to respond to long-time fan's feelings, so I think we can meet their expectations with these gameplays.
That answer in a world where Mania is a thing, it's just nonsense.
Sometimes I feel Sega is still 2 (or 3) firms under the same brand
Velocity:Design:Comfort
Banned
Yeah, and the sad part about all this is that Lost World, while pretty trash, had a core of potentially good design if they worked on it. And all without being Boost Sonic or super janky Adventure design.
All they needed to do was hit the same level of quality of Generations and most people would have been happy. The issue isn't with them using Classic Sonic, it's with who they're staffing in the Game Design positions. Based on the elements featured in this level I think it's safe to say it's the same people that designed the levels in Sonic Lost World, so their work would doom the game with or without Classic Sonic.
And again the issue is they still haven't even tried yet. Generations and this game are faking it in a very insincere way. It doesn't seem like much to ask that they tackle actually making a game play like it's supposed to.