-Mutsukki-
Member
I can at least overlook shmup because it tries to at least describe something. Using games to describe another game is actually really really bad, see "Hard games are like Dark Souls"
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Digibro: 'Metroidvania' Needs to Die
- Thread starter Tye The Czar
- Start date
I can at least overlook shmup because it tries to at least describe something. Using games to describe another game is actually really really bad, see "Hard games are like Dark Souls"
OrbitalBeard
Member
Wow, I really agree with you. SotN is a great game in some ways, but it's deeply flawed. Rondo of Blood is the absolute pinnacle of the franchise.
Phoenix RISING
Banned
A writer on my team suggested that we drop "metroidvania" as a genre and roll with "action platformer." I agreed.
drotahorror
Member
Something has to carry on the legacy.
OrbitalBeard
Member
It doesn't roll of the tongue, but "gated platformer" is how I'd describe the genre as a whole.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
i can't get past the art on his walls
-Mutsukki-
Member
That's the Japanese term for the genre, whoever said this is probably just a weeb, lol
"Exploration platformer" also sums it up pretty nicely. The thing is, we have the words to do the job but we don't want to over laziness. Describing a piece with another is not good.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
I'm just plain tired of seeing the word Metroidvania. It's fucking used to describe every goddamn side scroller. I may need a script to switch it out on my browser with something else.
That would depend entirely on the structure of the game.
Both Mega Man and Metroid games could be well described by the term "action platformer", but of those two only Metroid would fit under the "metroidvania" label. If Metroidvania is an accurate description of your game's world design and progression mechanics, then you would be sacrificing a precise label for a more generalized one.
Personally, I think we need more precise labels for game genres as a whole. There are a lot of clear subgenres that have emerged in gaming that we lack clear terminology for. Constantly leaning on vaguely defined categories such as "action", "RPG", and "Adventure" make it harder to discuss games.
But action platformer is already a term for linear a platformers with a heavy combat element. Stuff like Mega Man, amusingly the classic castlevanias, that sort of thing.
D.Lo
Member
Action Platformer is something different, typically a platformer with guns or other weapons that focuses on killing enemies instead of navigating the environment. It's about the combat design, not level progression.
So while Metroid and SoTN are (sort of) action platformers, so are Castlevania, Contra, Metal Slug, Ratchet and Clank etc.
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
That reminds me, you guys owe me a dollar for each time you've written the word "metroidvania."
While I believe we should have a nice academic debate regarding labels in games, you do have a point. It's a reference and an easily identifiable one at that. Just leave it be...
-Mutsukki-
Member
If we took the same logic that "Metroidvania" leans on, then as substitutes for RPGs we'd have stuff like "Finalfantasylike" "Dragonquestlike" "Elderscrollslike" "Finalquest genre" "Elderquest genre" and so on. It's... as imprecise as it gets, it's not good at all.
Edit: I wonder how long till "Soulsborne" becomes a genre and not just to describe recent From Software titles.
I don't know why the phrase "anime basement" made me laugh, but it did. And it does describe the setting.
The Horror the horror
Banned
Funny thing is, if they were in 3D the games would probably be referred to as Souls-like.
GravityMan
Member
The Youtuber is overthinking this.
Correct. The term surfaced many years ago and just seemed to stick.
Kinda like "roguelike", "JRPG", etc.
Correct. The term surfaced many years ago and just seemed to stick.
Kinda like "roguelike", "JRPG", etc.
Zomba13
Member
Well you have "Turn based" RPG, "Action" RPG, "Computer" RPG, "Western/Open World" RPG, "MMO" RPG etc. Each descriptor gives you an idea of what the game is like.
I dunno, the thing about "metroidvanias" isn't that you explore, it's that you explore and are gated by barriers that require new abilities or weapons. Souls games gate you but it's by finding a shortcut or something. you can explore the entire game at lvl1 while in a metroidvania game you can't explore the entire map at "lvl 1" (your starting equipment). Salt and Sanctuary is a "Soulslike" "Metroidvania" because it takes inspiration from both types. Hard and unforgiving, leveling up with a currency you drop and can reclaim, areas gated by both shortcuts you activate and areas that need special abilities you gain as you play.
D.Lo
Member
Which you will then forward 99c of to Nintendo and 1c of to Konami for the percentage they contributed to the 'genre'?
-Mutsukki-
Member
Yes! Exactly! If you pay attention, none of these are referencing any other game and are instead describing what kind of RPG it really is. The poster was saying that "RPG" is too vague, but we have descriptors just so it isn't.
Storm Chamber
Banned
Spring-Loaded
Member
Fuck Castlevania
And with that, is Zelda an action adventure or is it an RPG?
The entire premise is backwards and wrong. The term metroidvania as a descriptor to lump two seemingly very different games together is the entire point.
The idea isn't to unilaterally say that all metroidvanias are the same type of games. It's a descriptive term that emphasizes the specific elements that these different games have in common. We already know that Metroid is primarily a run and gun platformer and SOTN is a side scrolling action RPG. In addition to that however, both games utilize a structure of interconnected rooms on one or a few large maps that can be traversed freely, and both employ a progression system where acquired abilities can be used to traverse this/these maps with less and less limitations. Those elements are what define a metroidvania (simplified of course) and are why the term exists.
The idea isn't to unilaterally say that all metroidvanias are the same type of games. It's a descriptive term that emphasizes the specific elements that these different games have in common. We already know that Metroid is primarily a run and gun platformer and SOTN is a side scrolling action RPG. In addition to that however, both games utilize a structure of interconnected rooms on one or a few large maps that can be traversed freely, and both employ a progression system where acquired abilities can be used to traverse this/these maps with less and less limitations. Those elements are what define a metroidvania (simplified of course) and are why the term exists.
psychotron
Member
I hate that wording too.
DragonGirl
Member
I never found the term Metroidvania useful. Use it to describe a game to someone who isn't familiar with Metroid or the Castlevania's that copied Metroid and it's useless. I found it a lot more useful to call these Maze World games then describe the sort of action taking place in them.
I also call Dark Souls a Maze World game, since it shares that same world design philosophy with Metroid.
I also call Dark Souls a Maze World game, since it shares that same world design philosophy with Metroid.
JadedWriter
Member
Have you seen his anime discussions?
D.Lo
Member
Soulsbourne is fine to describe a loose series of games by one company. If it branches to anything else we'll have the same problem.
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Forgetting Simon's Quest? The game had some of the basic elements of a Metroidvania, SOTN refined the formula and added more.
PepperedHam
Member
This is the same guy who made a video about how everyone else who makes anime videos sucks because they don't follow how he makes them. I don't usually do this but I can't really take him seriously after that display of self fellation.
It's an identifier for a type of game, there's nothing wrong with it at all.
It's an identifier for a type of game, there's nothing wrong with it at all.
Doctoglethorpe
Member
Ima just call it guacasylumoriverges then. Really rolls off the tongue.
It already did die? Hasn't he heard of
Igavania -> good fun action rpgs
Metroidlike -> bad games that patronize you with thin veneer over key & lock "puzzles" that you ALWAYS have to back-track to
Botwlike -> good games that give you all the tools and reward player ingenuity and dexterity to bypass problems
He also got really mad at a friend of his because his friend made a video about how a thing that was a stand alone complex was a stand alone complex and didn't get credited for "coming up with the idea"
Igavania -> good fun action rpgs
Metroidlike -> bad games that patronize you with thin veneer over key & lock "puzzles" that you ALWAYS have to back-track to
Botwlike -> good games that give you all the tools and reward player ingenuity and dexterity to bypass problems
He also got really mad at a friend of his because his friend made a video about how a thing that was a stand alone complex was a stand alone complex and didn't get credited for "coming up with the idea"
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
Naw, they actually pay me a commission for helping to keep "metroid" in the cultural lexicon.Which you will then forward 99c of to Nintendo and 1c of to Konami for the percentage they contributed to the 'genre'?
D.Lo
Member
Lol SoTN is not a refinement of Simon's Quest, it is a Super Metroid clone with RPG cruft added. It shares no design elements from CV2 other than non-linearity and having a shop.
Also I would not call SoTN a refinement of anything except pixel art, the game is a structural mess.
As opposed to... a turn based platformer?
EatinOlives
Member
Wearing shades. Indoors. While talking to a camera.
Digibro has a point, but he frames it poorly. What he is saying is that he wishes people wouldn't classify Metroid-like games as Metroidvanias, as Metroidvania doesn't really encapsulate the Metroid style of game (he argues this point a little better in the second video).
Trying to say that the term Metroidvania should just die is a strange argument. In a universe where Igavania DID become the defacto term, people could still have improperly classified Metroid-like games as Igavania games.
I just feel like he placed the wrong emphasis on the wrong arguments.
Trying to say that the term Metroidvania should just die is a strange argument. In a universe where Igavania DID become the defacto term, people could still have improperly classified Metroid-like games as Igavania games.
I just feel like he placed the wrong emphasis on the wrong arguments.
Spoilsport. -_-
Just to be nitpicky, its a Zelda clone.
Thing is i mean it sincerely, I'm not convinced there's any real practical difference between an actionized adventure game and an actionized RPG.
I mean it too, though not like this.gif
There is a difference in what games get associated with which term, it's just Zelda is within the overlap.
-Mutsukki-
Member
I don't agree. Simon's Quest feels more like Zelda 2 than any Metroid game
Or just call them Souls games because that's exactly what they all are.