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[Corpekata]

The only people that seem to get confused by these sort of terms tend to be extreme pendants or extreme fanboys that are offended some indie game is being compared to their masterpieces. And even they understand what people mean. It's argumental masturbation.

 

[D.Lo]

I'd refute but that would be like defending Super Mario Bros or Tetris or Chrono Trigger. They are seminal works that while OF FUCKING COURSE got polished in subsequent iterations, they just created the state of the art.

The term Metroidvania exists because those two games are so good they became the stick to measure the others, and such they are great themselves. They need no argument for their greatness.

Actually no, if someone is arguning against the importance of Super Mario Bros, you have to have arguments to suppprt it being 'quintessential'. 'Of fucking course' is not an argument and you have yet to provide a single point in defence of SOTN's alleged 'quintessential Metroid-like' status.

And no, that is not why the Metroidvania term exists. It exists purely due to the ubiquitousness of the Metroid style Castlevania games on GBA/DS as a way to distingush them from the original action games CV formula

 

[RPGam3r]

Actually no, if someone is arguning against the importance of Super Mario Bros, you have to have arguments to suppprt it being 'quintessential'. 'Of fucking course' is not an argument and you have yet to provide a single point in defence of SOTN's alleged 'quintessential Metroid-like' status.

And no, that is not why the Metroidvania term exists. It exists purely due to the ubiquitousness of the Metroid style Castlevania games on GBA/DS as a way to distingush them from the original action games CV formula

I don't think linking to your own thread on a forum carries as much weight as it carrying a 93% and a subsequent 89% on metacritic. I also find it very reductive to say its a clone when it does things very different from Super Metroid.

 

[AlexBasch]

King's Field V?

What is your favourite Kingsoulsborne game?

I pray everyday From will release another Souls game without the word Souls (or blood/borne) in it.

Spoiler

I liked Beast Souls a lot better than Bloodborne tbh

 

[Tain]

I can't imagine having such a fetish for visible stat progression that I would make videos trying to convince people to stop comparinI can't imagine having such a fetish for visible stat progression that I would make videos trying to convince people to stop comparing Super Metroid to SotN.

Ctrl+F "roguelike"
Ctrl+F "shmup"

...and we have a thread!

These terms are long since established. Trying to fight them now is pointless.

I won't use "shmup" because it sounds dumb as hell.

I won't apply the same genre to describe both Spelunky and Nethack because that makes no sense.

y'all can't make me

 

[ramparter]

Well both franchises are dead.

I shouldnt be laughing but I am.

 

[Santiako]

With the remaster I can see that, but I mean back in 2009? I guess that's a possibilty, but I have a feeling I only saw strong use of it aroung when Guacamelee was being released and more games like that gained traction. But eh, like I said I could be very wrong.

It was already in use around GAF in 2005

And here is the post where the term was coined, in June 2001

 

[TSM]

This is like the thread where people railed against the name of the walking simulator genre. These genre labels are entrenched and unlikely to be replaced by the inane suggestions most people throw out there.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

Reasonability has to come into it at some point.

I mean, why do they call it Mario Kart, and not Mario and Friends Kart? Is Nintendo trying to systemically destroy modern notions of companionship, or is this just a subtle commentary about how white males are seen as the leaders of their respective fields.

10/10

 

[dickroach]

Enough of the term "platformer" already. We get it. You gotta jump on stuff. Get off your high horse devs. You're not gonna be the next Mario.

 

[whalleywhat]

Yeah good games. Boo bad games.

I concur.

 

[Rhaknar]

Well both franchises are dead.

First post quality post right here, holy shit.

The only people that seem to get confused by these sort of terms tend to be extreme pendants or extreme fanboys that are offended some indie game is being compared to their masterpieces. And even they understand what people mean. It's argumental masturbation.

I knew I liked you. Now go say that shit in the steam thread where it belongs.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

It's a nice catch-all that covers that type of game that isn't a 2D platformer but not quite an all out adventure game that is a static map with gated progression and backtracking.

I think it's about time it was accepted as the vernacular for that style of game.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

It was already in use around GAF in 2005

And here is the post where the term was coined, in June 2001

You didn't read the entire conversation, which I guess is understable, but nothing you linked even goes against something I said. I've been saying that the term was used exclusively for post-SOTN Castlevanias and no other game until a few years back and these posts you linked pretty much back me up

 

[Caelus]

It's just an easy to way to encapsulate the way the games made people feel. Symphony of the Night had unnecessary RPG stat mechanics but that didn't change the phenomenal atmosphere and feel of the game, while Super Metroid is more tightly (and well) designed but likewise carries that awesome feel of an expansive 2D world.

 

[Painguy]

It's a term of reference most gamers are familiar with. Not everything in the world is cause for insightful, deep academic debate. Fuck.

Yaaaaaassssss

 

[D.Lo]

Accusations that Digibro is overthinking it or is trying to have an "academic debate" are inaccurate cop-outs. He's providing a minimal amount of thought to the matter vs. refusing to think about it at all, to challenge the term vs. challenging nothing. His argument can be broken down into two or three main points (e.g., metroid vs vania) and he delivers that argument in a fairly straightforward manner. I don't quite agree with his framing, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with it.

The descriptive vs. prescriptive argument in bound to surface in a discussion of genre (and pretty much anything else involving "rules" in thought, criticism, or analysis), however I think people are taking the laziest version of the descriptive argument, which ends up coming across as "stop talking about this!" Yeah, if "if it works, don't break it!" is sound on some level, but if someone points out ways something doesn't fit, then you not engaging them by just reiterating it.

Roguelike (insofar it meant games distinctively like Rogue) and JRPG (insofar it meant the type of "RPGs" (can of worms) Japanese devs were making circa it's adoption of Wizardry and standardization with Dragon Quest) were (and in the original sense, still are) perfectly apt as genres, but that's not to say they haven't been corrupted as they been expanded to mean more and more things (however so that may have came to be). Don't want to spend the time to discussion either of those terms, but it's worth noting in the video (or was it in the follow-up?) he actually does make a comparison between what occurred with JRPGs and "igavanias" (i.e., SotN-style Castlevania games); Metroidvania/Igavania began as a specific distinction between games within the Castlevania franchise/brand and then was extended outwards, like a roving blob of tacky game journo generalization, to absorb every 2D platformer or 2D action game with a hint of open-ended or non-linear level/map design ("Metroid"). So, yeah, kinda like "JRPG" and whatnot, but maybe not in the way you would hope.

SotN is flawed masterpiece, or, rather, it's an aesthetic masterpiece built on some terrible core ideas. And these ideas are easily identified. If you remove or streamlined its leveling system, the game becomes dramatically better without any real loss to what makes its audiovisuals or exploration so intriguing.

Great post.

You didn't read the entire conversation, which I guess is understable, but nothing you linked even goes against something I said. I've been saying that the term was used exclusively for post-SOTN Castlevanias and no other game until a few years back and these posts you linked pretty much back me up

Yeah, it was 100% a term for the Castlevania series only, and Guacamelee is when I first heard it being a lazy general term. The Guacamelee developer specifically incorrectly called their game a Metroidvania, so maybe he's to blame.

 

[PantsuJo]

It's a term of reference most gamers are familiar with. Not everything in the world is cause for insightful, deep academic debate. Fuck.

Perfect analysis.

 

[Stop It]

It's a term of reference most gamers are familiar with. Not everything in the world is cause for insightful, deep academic debate. Fuck.

Try describing a genre to someone who isn't au fait with gaming to the extent of an average GAF member.

It's easy to say to someone "Oh, I played Zelda: BotW today". "Oh, what's that". "It''s an action adventure".

Now try to describe a Metroidvania game in the same way. It's only a good label to anyone who is already familiar with the subject, hardly a good way to name a genre.

"Souls like" can fuck off as well.

 

[SMG]

I've spent years trying (and failing) to get AbiliKey off the ground.

 

[Necro900]

Every once in a while someone stands on a soapbox saying what needs to be or not be. And usually they are wrong.

Precisely this (bless Neil for that quote).

The clickbait culture is really the lowering level of debates on boards/youtube/Twitter. There's little to no substance to almost all these "pleasenoticeme" articles/opinions.
I Wonder what will be next.. "videogames are better without videogames", maybe?

 

[-Mutsukki-]

Precisely this (bless Neil for that quote).

The clickbait culture is really the lowering level of debates on boards/youtube/Twitter. There's little to no substance to almost all these "pleasenoticeme" articles/opinions.
I Wonder what will be next.. "videogames are better without videogames", maybe?

This post is more clickbait-y and low quality than the video you did not bother to watch

 

[Tunahead]

It's a nice catch-all that covers that type of game that isn't a 2D platformer but not quite an all out adventure game that is a static map with gated progression and backtracking.

I think it's about time it was accepted as the vernacular for that style of game.

I hate it. It reminds me of how all first person shooters were called Doomclones until Duke Nukem 3D or maybe Quake came out, I forget. (See also: MOBAs AKA "DOTAclones")

It's a mortal sin to start the description of your video game as "like [other video game title]" and "Metroidvania" does it twice all in one go and it's terrible and I wish someone would come up with a suitable replacement.

Every now and then someone brings up the Metroidvania problem and none of them ever offer a solution. I haven't watched the video yet, but I bet Digibro doesn't either.

 

[Easy_D]

Still not as redundant of a term as fucking "Soulsborne".

That'd be like me calling Metroid-likes AxiomTroids. When the other game is 100% inspired by Metroid to begin with, just like Bloodborne is 100% a souls game under a different name.

 

[NewGame]

damn digibro is maximum weeb

Takes one to know o-

-oh.

 

[JusDoIt]

What would be wrong with "plaform-adventure" or something?

People are objecting, but "platform-adventure" is a perfectly suitable label for Metroidlikes. They are action-adventure games, but the defining action is platforming.

"Platform-adventure" is also true to the genre's roots. Within the span of a year Nintendo defined the platform game with Super Mario Bros. (Sept. 1985), defined the action-adventure game with Zelda (Feb. 1986), and completed the Holy Trinity by combining the two with Metroid (Aug. 1986).

 

[disappeared]

What the hell's the problem? It's an amalgamation of terms that's used to describe a certain genre of game. Everybody's comfortable with it.

 

[BooJoh]

You didn't read the entire conversation, which I guess is understable, but nothing you linked even goes against something I said. I've been saying that the term was used exclusively for post-SOTN Castlevanias and no other game until a few years back and these posts you linked pretty much back me up

Great post.

Yeah, it was 100% a term for the Castlevania series only, and Guacamelee is when I first heard it being a lazy general term. The Guacamelee developer specifically incorrectly called their game a Metroidvania, so maybe he's to blame.

Guacamelee was announced around the end of 2011

Some GAF links:

Cave Story WiiWare thread lists the game as a metroidvania in 2010

Someone refers to Kirby & the Amazing Mirror as a metroidvania in 2010

A topic in 2009 throws the term around asking specifically for non-Metroid/Castlevania games.

Someone refers to Prince of Persia GBA as a metroidvania in 2006.

You guys are mistaken. People have been using the term for at least 10 years, it's probably here to stay.

 

[Toe-Knee]

When I hear a game described as metroidvania I completely ignore that game.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

Guacamelee was announced around the end of 2011

Some GAF links:

Cave Story WiiWare thread lists the game as a metroidvania in 2010

Someone refers to Kirby & the Amazing Mirror as a metroidvania in 2010

A topic in 2009 throws the term around asking specifically for non-Metroid/Castlevania games.

Someone refers to Prince of Persia GBA as a metroidvania in 2006.

You guys are mistaken. People have been using the term for at least 10 years, it's probably here to stay.

Fair enough though more than half of the examples are still relating it specifically to Castlevania or are kinda hesitant to describe it as that. So it was before Guacamelee when it bled over to other games for whatever reason. Nothing is "here to stay" though, people called video game "Nintendos" and FPSes "Doom-clones" for the longest time till they knew better and all I can hope is that history will do the same here

 

[dickroach]

When I hear a game described as metroidvania I completely ignore that game.

throw in "procedurally generated" and i'm right there with you.
but if it's a big platformer with good level design and progression <33

 

[Human Trashcan]

People being pedantic about genre labels is maybe my least favorite nerd subgenre. Reminds me of people who think they're genuinely clever when they point out that almost any game is a "role-playing game" on account of you're playing as a character. Fuck off.

 

[correojon]

I agree with the arguments given in the video, for a long time I cringed everytime I heard the term "Metroidvania" and couldn't understand what the -vania part added that wasn't already described by "Metroid-like", specially because all games I've seen described as Metroidvanias were just Metroidlikes without any of the characteristics of SotN that differentiated it from Metroid. However it stuck and everyone understands it now as what it is, so there's no need to change it for purism reasons.

It's the same as what's happenning with "Soulsborne". Wtf does "-borne" add to the term?

 

[dickroach]

I agree with the arguments given in the video, for a long time I cringed everytime I heard the term "Metroidvania" and couldn't understand what the -vania part added that wasn't already described by "Metroid-like", specially because all games I've seen described as Metroidvanias were just Metroidlikes without any of the characteristics of SotN that differentiated it from Metroid. However it stuck and everyone understands it now as what it is, so there's no need to change it for purism reasons.

It's the same as what's happenning with "Soulsborne". Wtf does "-borne" add to the term?

there was a thing, and then there was another thing that was kinda like that thing, and now everything like those things is that things.

things.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I'm more offended metroidvania is used on games that aren't really metroidvania-ish.

Hell, people now refer to games RPG despite only having RPG elements.

 

[Messofanego]

damn digibro is maximum weeb

 

[MattKeil]

"Metroidvania" is a useful description that has been in use for nearly 15 years now in gaming enthusiast circles. It's not going anywhere, and serves its purpose. No reason to change it. Not every shorthand categorization term has to be a flawless 1:1 match to the thing it describes. Unclench.

It's the same as what's happenning with "Soulsborne". Wtf does "-borne" add to the term?

It includes Bloodborne as part of From Software's output that defined the subgenre. Not all that complicated, IMO.

 

[SaniOYOYOY]

Super eyepatch wolf > digibro

 

[Dremark]

I've never liked the term, but nothing else would stick.

 

[Corpekata]

Fair enough though more than half of the examples are still relating it specifically to Castlevania or are kinda hesitant to describe it as that. So it was before Guacamelee when it bled over to other games for whatever reason. Nothing is "here to stay" though, people called video game "Nintendos" and FPSes "Doom-clones" for the longest time till they knew better and all I can hope is that history will do the same here

Those two examples are things that greatly expanded, not contracted like this genre has. It's stuck.

There's not going to be the Metroidvana version of the Playstation, or Wolfenstein, Goldeneye, and Halo that causes language to change. The term has stuck and evolved past the original meaning.

 

[TSM]

Fair enough though more than half of the examples are still relating it specifically to Castlevania or are kinda hesitant to describe it as that. So it was before Guacamelee when it bled over to other games for whatever reason. Nothing is "here to stay" though, people called video game "Nintendos" and FPSes "Doom-clones" for the longest time till they knew better and all I can hope is that history will do the same here

These games have been metroidvanias since at least the early 2000s. Steam has cemented the term with an official category to search for these types of games. Hell, do a simple search for metroidvania on google and you will get links to hundreds of articles about games in the genre. I think we are good.

 

[dickroach]

I've never liked the term, but nothing else would stick.

"2d adventure game"
too many syllables :\

 

[cartman414]

So's your mom!

That was quite the quick, heh, riposte.

It's great for you to have an outlier opinion(I think BOTW is overrated) but to act as if the majority of SOTN players at the time and even in retrospect don't view it as quintessential is completely wrong.

I kind of agree with him. Even though I loved it from the get-go, it felt a little monotonous compared to Super Metroid. I ended up liking Rondo of Blood better.

Besides, Iga refined his game a bit with the Sorrows, though budget cuts and attempts to combine stand-alone levels would hurt the subsequent two games a bit.

 

[Necro900]

This post is more clickbait-y and low quality than the video you did not bother to watch

Well, good thing don't have a yt Channel and ask people to take my controversial opinions seriously, then. I'd be in serious peril of getting dem clicks.

Also, salty posts are better without salt

 

[Fudo Myo]

Well both franchises are dead.

Winner: most depressing comment of the thread.

 

[faridmon]

I just love that these two franchise spawned a whole culture, genre behind them because they are so damn fine.

 

[Murkas]

I want ResidentCrisis to be a thing.

 

[sammyCYBORG]

This guy matches the image of my head of someone who would care about something like this. Complete with weird underage anime girls in the background. Jesus..

 

[Harmen]

Overanalyzing genre labels is useless, people just use them as a quick label for the sake of convenience. Probably the absolute majority of the people who identify as avid gamers know what other gamers mean when they say Metroidvania, thus the term fulfills it's purpose.

 

[ethomaz]

Who cares?

Metrovania is an amazing term and sub-genre.