I mean, Banjo-Tooie to Crash to Mario Galaxy are all very different games but they're all still 3D Platformers. Same thing with Doom to Overwatch to UT to Halo being FPSs. Metroidvania seems to cover a comparable range of differences within the same genre, it just so happens to use game titles to make up its genre name. I'm sure if we had more Zelda clones on the market, like Darksiders, we might end up with a genre with Zelda in its name. Everyone knows what the term means, so it makes sense to use.
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Digibro: 'Metroidvania' Needs to Die
- Thread starter Tye The Czar
- Start date
Which is funny since dark souls plays like a 3d metroidvania.
...it's a term used by enthusiasts though, which is the /entire/ point. I already mentioned this, so I have no idea why you're repeating it. ALL enthusiast hobbies have terms outsiders won't understand, this is nothing new.
We all know what it means, and anyone who looks into it to discover what it means will understand it quickly.
It works, regardless of how illogical you think the chosen words for the specific term are, we (enthusiasts) all know what is meant when someone says "character action game".
Seems like every few months someone makes a topic on GAF in an attempt to make a conscious effort to get rid of the term metroidvania.
GAF is a big forum, but it's still a drop in the pool and trying to change this one word is like trying to get people to stop using the word "Band-Aid" as a catch-all for adhesive bandages.
Very seldom does any sort of fandom sit down and discuss what terms they will use. People just start using whatever term they like and whichever gains the most traction the fastest sticks. In this case we ended up with a slightly clunky-looking word that has no meaning to the uninformed but perfectly explains its concept to those who are familiar with its usage.
Also there's another reason I think the word has stuck, it's fun!
It references games that are well loved, it's kind of like a celebration of nostalgia and former great design while also being a term we can all understand.
It's people like Digibro sucking the fun out of it for others, imo.
Acerac
Banned
It just feels odd to me that a genre called Metroidvania typically has way more to do with Castlevania than Metroid. Metroid games don't have grinding, leveling up, and random rare drops from enemies. I've heard some people just call them IGAvanias, that makes a lot more sense to me.
I get it, the games are similar enough to an outside observer. In a world where Final Fantasy 6 and Skyrim can be accurately described as RPGs I suppose the differences are pretty minimal in comparison.
I get it, the games are similar enough to an outside observer. In a world where Final Fantasy 6 and Skyrim can be accurately described as RPGs I suppose the differences are pretty minimal in comparison.
While both terms originated as interchangeable terms for IGA's Metroid-style Castlevania games, I think the term IGAvania still typically refers specifically to IGA's games. I think Bloodstained is the first non-Castlevania game to be commonly referred to as an IGAvania, largely because it's right there on the Kickstarter page.
I do agree that it's odd. I myself don't refer to Metroid games as metroidvanias unless I'm just listing games in the genre, as it almost feels disrespectful to Metroid's legacy since the games have borrowed nothing from Castlevania as far as I can recall. But that's the only real outlier for me. I'll sometimes make the distinction that something like Xeodrifter is an homage to Metroid, but I would still generally categorize it as a metroidvania.
No it isn't. Just because "enthusiasts" (aka Neogaf posters) use the term, doesn't make it any less dumb. Every example I listed was originally used by "enthusiasts". If a genre doesn't get it's point across in it's title than it is useless. That's the entire point of labeling a genre.
Lux R7
Member
abstract alien
Member
That's what happens when you have too much time on your hands for days on end. You cave into yourself and start abstracting reality on internet media in the worst ways possible, with sunglasses on.
veloxStrix
Banned
I already hate Digibro's opinions on anime. I dont think I want to learn his opinions about games.
That said, any argument about linguistic usage is dumb. Words and their meaning aren't defined by dictionaries but by the popular usage. The meaning of metroidvania has less to do with the two games and more to do with a certain style that falls in between them and I think most people get that. It is prescriptive language vs descriptive language and descriptive always wins.
That said, any argument about linguistic usage is dumb. Words and their meaning aren't defined by dictionaries but by the popular usage. The meaning of metroidvania has less to do with the two games and more to do with a certain style that falls in between them and I think most people get that. It is prescriptive language vs descriptive language and descriptive always wins.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Oh my god one of Digibro's videos is controversial who could've seen this coming.
You're not wrong in the abstract but that statement sounds super anti-intellectual.
Is this a joke or did you unintentionally show why the term Metroidvania is so nebulous that it means very little?
TheSpaceBetween
Member
It plays like a 3D vania, but Metroid relies a lot more on pathfinding than vania or souls.
Why would it be a joke? Both games have rpg elements. Feature open world ish gameplay that is setup largely in a more corridor fashion, with new areas generally being locked behind bosses, and save rooms. Im not the first to make the comparison and it fits extremely well.
Thats true it has far more in common with castlevania then metroid.
Crankshaft
Member
As a fan of both metroid and castlevania I appreciate being able to go on steam and search "metroidvania" and have those type of games pop up. Games like Hollow Knight.
People who get bent out of shape over "metroidvania" and "soulsborne" should maybe get some sun. Go for a walk and breathe some air or something.
People who get bent out of shape over "metroidvania" and "soulsborne" should maybe get some sun. Go for a walk and breathe some air or something.
Team Filler
Member
I prefer to use the modified term coined by Ray Barnholdt: Controidvania.
-Mutsukki-
Member
So you pretty much agree that it's a bad term. People who are very familiar with both Metroid and Castlevania aren't the big public you're talking about and are more akin to the uninformed.
This is not about linguistics, it's about laziness, Words change of course, but Metroid and Castlevania are still both just video game titles, made up words with no meaning behind them. Metroidvania is definitely not descriptive language either because effectively Metroidvania means nothing at all. "It means a game that is like that", well yeah, like what exactly? You can't just point to a gameplay video and say "like that". That's not descriptive, it's just a comparison and a really bad one at that.
We're just mashing two videogame titles together and thinking that it has some meaning. It doesn't.
Deckard Chapel
Banned
zackmorris
Member
His name is digibro?
I didn't watch the video and I know this is a bit different, but aren't all labels a little to general? I mean COD and Bioshock are both FPS', GoW and UC are both TPS', the walking dead and day of the tentacle are both adventure games. This is true for RPGs, character action, platformers, puzzle games etc.
There is so much variation within genres that slapping a generalized label on a game doesn't do it justice, but it still makes sense to do so.
As far as metroidvanias, I always thought they were more in line with metroid style games anyway.
I didn't watch the video and I know this is a bit different, but aren't all labels a little to general? I mean COD and Bioshock are both FPS', GoW and UC are both TPS', the walking dead and day of the tentacle are both adventure games. This is true for RPGs, character action, platformers, puzzle games etc.
There is so much variation within genres that slapping a generalized label on a game doesn't do it justice, but it still makes sense to do so.
As far as metroidvanias, I always thought they were more in line with metroid style games anyway.
Except all of those are usually described by their sub-genres: COD is a cover shooter, Bioshock is a (gimped) arena shooter, God of War is an action/hack and slash, Uncharted is an adventure game w/TPS mechanics, and the last 2 are point and click adventure games.
A metroidvania is always just a metroidvania.
Errrrr....
A metroidvania once only was a Castlevania that played like Metroid.
Lord British
Member
I call them Mapformers.
I believe this should be adopted as the new terminology.
I believe this should be adopted as the new terminology.
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
I think mapformers are what Peter Molyneux and Will Wright made their reputations on.
This is 100% about linguistics. "Metroidvania" has meaning because people widely understand the term, it doesn't matter how it came about.
Refreshment.01
Member
i guess Zeltroid could work too.
But "Melda" reminds a bit of "Melting" a Melting Pot of games XD
It's also funny that Symphony of the Night and Dark Souls play like Zelda II, one in 2D and the other in 3D.
So what can we call these two. Zelda likes? XD
veloxStrix
Banned
I like the term. People that criticize it seem to miss that point that it's in reference to the world design. It's not level based, it's not open world, it's not sand box. It's not in reference to leveling up mechanics. You are in a world, you unlock abilities to explore more, and you get upgrades through items.
Acerac
Banned
One would just that with a name like metroidvania the games would be based off a mixture of Castlevania and Metroid, instead of directly aping Igarashi's Castlevania games.
Word roots don't have to match their meanings, to be sure, it just feels like a more appropriate match is right there with Igavania.
D.Lo
Member
Yes, it was clearly originally invented to distinguish between the original skill based Castlevania games (now referred to sometimes as 'Actionvania' or Classicvania') and the ones with a single interconnected layout with a map and progression taken straight from Super Metroid.
- It made perfect sense to describe Castlevania games with Metroid structure.
- It makes a small amount of sense to describe games with a Metroid-like map and structure with RPG stuff added (eg levelling ect) since that is what SOTN added. It doesn't really add up since SoTN didn't invent that stuff either, if anything SoTN is Metroid-Dragon-Quest-like or whatever
- It makes NO sense to describe all games with a Metroid-like map and progression, since 'vania' brought nothing to that part of the design
- It makes less than no sense to describe all non-linear action adventures, even just side scrolling 2D ones (eg Wonder Boy III), since the use neither the Metroid Map format, nor necessarily RPG levelling from SoTN.
chemicals
Member
I love SOTN style games with a similar map and all.. Was just playing Shantae and the Pirate's Curse earlier today and loving it. A little history, SOTN is my favorite game ever. I am also a fan of all Castlevania games. I just love the setting and the story (I also love Anne Rice novels about vampires). Dust: Elysian Tale was great, Shadow Complex was great!.. so many great games. The GBA and DS Castlevania games.. all classics. How can a gaming enthusiast seriously say something so lame? We may never know. Ignore it. Keep playing good games.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
basically it wouldn't be much of a problem if people actually stick to what they use it for definition rather than forcing games into it to begin with
what's a point in making up a term but then not actually following it
what's a point in making up a term but then not actually following it
Yeah, it was an absurd point to attempt to make. It has it's own genre tag on steam for pete's sake.
Acerac
Banned
The part that makes me sad is that so many applauded the early post that said that we should do away with critical thought in whatever area feels convenient. It's a commonly echoed sentiment, but the distaste many gamers have for analysis of their hobby is troubling at best.
It's fine to think it is a silly conversation, many words change meaning over time and seem ridiculous compared to their initial context. I just feel that the fact that so many people shit on discourse is... sad.
Isn't Metroidvania describing a genre where you gain new abilities to progress through a labryinth of a game? One has more RPG mechanics and the other adventure, it's just different means to the same ends. Every genre has games that have different mechanics, just look at the differences in many RPGs.
Ok and the term is used for 2D games. Only thing worse is people pretending Souls game had no influence on the industry. We had people in the nioh thread fighting tooth and nail to say it's not as souls inspired games even when the developer said so multiple times.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
welcome to the "first post wins" section of the internet
sir_bumble_bee
Member
skullmuffins
Banned
Or how FPS games can be linear corridor shooters, open worlds with skill trees and crafting systems, or have a procedurally-generated roguelike structure, etc. but that doesn't mean "first person shooter" has stopped being a meaningful genre descriptor.
Metroidvania describes the general world design and progression. They're 2D/side-view games* with a large interconnected world where you gain access to new areas by earning new abilities/items/weapons.
*You can make a 3D game with a metroidvania-inspired world and gating, but they're not typically referred to as simply "metroidvanias".
i was never pretending it had no influence. That being said the bones it uses are from other games, which there is nothing wrong with. A game copying something another game did isn't bad.
-Mutsukki-
Member
But it doesn't have meaning, that's the point. I'm not sure who are these people who "widely" understand the term are outside people who actually played Metroid or Castlevania. Anybody will understand what a First Person Shooter is, or even a Role-Playing Game as vague as that is they can still infer some kind of meaning to it through the words. Metroidvania, on the other hand, still means nothing at all.
You're right, I misunderstood. My bad.
I don't like the term because it's not really descriptive. If you have to use the name of another game to describe a genre it's a crappy name.
No I don't like Roguelike either but at least that's only one game's name rather than 2.
Yeah, it's the equivalent of calling FPS "Doom Clones" like they used to be called. People who know the genre or the games know what it means but no one else would.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
mindatlarge
Member
Why be vague when you can label a genre in a more detailed fashion? Terms such as Metroidvania just make it easier to quickly identify what kind of game the developer is aiming for.
tkscz
Member
I haven't seen the video yet, but if that what he says than I hole hardedly disagree. The genre is focused on exploration and does exploration differently than other adventure games. They are put together because they do that exploration the same way with different elements about them. The RPG/Platforming aren't their main focus, but side focus to the exploration.
So basically, you don't like it?
It's neither a problem right now, the term is just changing.
Genres are like tags, they get associated through appliance.