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[cartman414]

I don't think linking to your own thread on a forum carries as much weight as it carrying a 93% and a subsequent 89% on metacritic. I also find it very reductive to say its a clone when it does things very different from Super Metroid.

That's mild appeal to popularity there. Critical acclaim doesn't always account for or invalidate a work's potential shortcomings.

 

[MikeBison]

Overanalyzing genre labels is useless, people just use them as a quick label for the sake of convenience. Probably the absolute majority of the people who identify as avid gamers know what other gamers mean when they say Metroidvania, thus the term fulfills it's purpose.

Nail. head.

Don't think about it too much. If saying it gets your point across to most of the people likely to be listening, then it works.

 

[VDenter]

The Metroid games and Igavania games are much more different than people like to give them credit for. So i can kind of see where he is coming from. It actually really grinds my gears when people compare Symphony of the Night with Super Metroid.

 

[correojon]

It includes Bloodborne as part of From Software's output that defined the subgenre. Not all that complicated, IMO.

How does Bloodborne define the subgenre? What does "borne" add to the definition of what a Souls-like game is? And if From released another Souls game named "Dark Dragons" would the term have to be updated to "Soulsbornedragons"? Where do we stop?

 

[stan423321]

"Metroidvania" is a useful description that has been in use for nearly 15 years now in gaming enthusiast circles. It's not going anywhere, and serves its purpose. No reason to change it. Not every shorthand categorization term has to be a flawless 1:1 match to the thing it describes. Unclench.

It's not that useful and that's the video guy's point, I wanted to make a thread about the very same thing, since this already exists there's no point even if I disagree on some minor details given everyone is going "bleeeeeh metroidvania is a good word you are a dumbass for trying to stop it".

Summarizing: Castlevania "Metroidvanias" have major RPG elements and more importantly focus on (sidescrolling) combat with very little platforming. Metroid "Metroidvanias" have combat share focus with platforming at best by not including too many non-boss tank enemies, feature fairly more complex level design and more discrete progress control (Castlevania examples tend to have inventories and loads of weapons and experience subsystem, for instance). A few games labelled as Metroidvanias fall somewhere in the middle, but vast majority are definitely closer to one of those, and some people like one and don't like another, so the term is not that useful to them. See 4:15 in the follow-up video for noting that's the primary problem of that guy.

It is somewhat made harder to see by Metroid not being the purest representation of its side of the spectrum, it has loads of permanent powerups hidden in places even though they just stack which simplifies things a lot, and internet's favorite Super Metroid has the beam property swap system instead of just upgrading your beam even though there's actually very few combinations you may want to use, but these are very minor points.

When people apply the same term to Toki Tori 2 and Dark Souls it is getting somewhat useless.

 

[thomasmahler]

I mean, I call Ori and the Blind Forest 'Metroidvania', even though the only real thing we 'took' was the open, explorable world. It doesn't feel like a Metroid game or a Castlevania game at all, but people understand what kinda experience they can expect as they play through the game if you use that term, so I use it out of convenience

 

[Airola]

This term is a weird thing.

Not only Metroidvania was supposed to only tell how the (back then) modern Castlevania game design was quite like Metroid, Castlevania was already going that route almost right in the beginning with Vampire Killer and Castlevania 2.

Metroid wasn't a franchise yet so people probably didn't even think those games reminded of Metroid. Hell, Metroid had just been out for a little while before Vampire Killer so Metroid probably didn't influence it at all.

So basically Castlevania went back to almost its roots with Symphony of the Night and games like that and added more "rpg elements" to it and suddenly it's "like a Metroid game."




Maybe this was addressed in the video, I haven't watched it yet. Or maybe this was already addressed in this thread, haven't read it yet, lol






Oh well, I have accepted that term long ago and it's a good term to tell what the playstyle is.

 

[Toe-Knee]

throw in "procedurally generated" and i'm right there with you.
but if it's a big platformer with good level design and progression <33

Great procedurally generated always puts me off. It just stands lack of thought.

It concerned me with horizon and the procedural terrain but that actually turned out ok.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I mean, that means Megaman X games are metroidvanias too

I mean, I call Ori and the Blind Forest 'Metroidvania', even though the only real thing we 'took' was the open, explorable world. It doesn't feel like a Metroid game or a Castlevania game at all, but people understand what kinda experience they can expect as they play through the game if you use that term, so I use it out of convenience

why not just a platformer

 

[Kamina]

Metroid and Castlevania are dead. Can we at least keep this memory?

 

[thomasmahler]

why not just a platformer

Cause with Platformer people associate the typical Mario level-by-level type of experience and structure.

I think the term is a clutch that simply describes non-linear, ability-or-item-driven progression.

 

[Smellycat]

Metroidvania > Castletroid

 

[mclem]

I'd say he makes a great argument that, since Super Metroid and Castlevania SotN have very different design goals, they shouldn't be lumped together. The former's more focused on platforming while SotN and "Igavanias" are designed more as side-scrolling Action-RPGs.

Metroidvania is a good descriptor for how a game is structured, and highlights the nature of the progression mechanics and how the game opens up to the player. It's the same sort of label as 'linear progression' and 'open-world', and for that purpose, the term is ideal. Using that label as a genre statement in isolation is the error.

 

[gelf]

When I hear a game described as metroidvania I completely ignore that game.

So you'd avoid a potentially good game just because someone used a term you don't like?

If you really don't like exploration based games with areas gated by the discovery of new abilities then fine but if its just because you don't like a random term isn't that rather silly?

 

[RRockman]

Digibro needs to stick to making bad anime videos

This.

 

[Thud]

Stick to the cute girls.

 

[LeleSocho]

I've seen the first video and it's asinine, every arguments he makes has at least a couple of counterpoints and the only thing that transpires from the video to me is that probably he has only played SOTN of the Castlevania side didn't like it and has taken the piss that the genre shares it's name with a franchise he likes.

I agree that the term might be over-generalized a bit, i've seen people calling Shovel Knight a metroidvania when it's obviously an homage to Duck Tales and MegaMan but in general metroidvania works very well as a term to describe a certain type of game.

 

[bjork]

I agree, there needs to be a new term. Also it's weird that it's called metroidvania when technically metroidvania did that style before castlevania did. But yeah we need a new label

I've never liked the term, but nothing else would stick.

"2d adventure game"
too many syllables :\

So you'd avoid a potentially good game just because someone used a term you don't like?

If you really don't like exploration based games with areas gated by the discovery of new abilities then fine but if its just because you don't like a random term isn't that rather silly?

If we use the bold as a definition and go, "metroid did this but zelda did it first", you could look further back and note that Hydlide did the "need item x to progress" thing first. So we should call them Hydlike games.

HYDLIKE.

Plus it would lead to people being like "what the hell is Hydlide?" then going and playing Hydlide and going, "holy crap, this entire medium is garbage!" Then we get more doctors and stuff.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Cause with Platformer people associate the typical Mario level-by-level type of experience and structure.

I think the term is a clutch that simply describes non-linear, ability-or-item-driven progression.

but you can have nonlinear platformers

then again nowadays platformer is less "explore the level" and more "reach the goal within short time with one hit kill obstacles"

Metroidvania > Castletroid

castletroid sounds like something illegal

 

[Eumi]

but you can have nonlinear platformers

Yes. Non-linear playformers do exist. In fact, there's even a term we use for a specific kind of non-linear platformer that locks areas off through in game abilities or items.

 

[Nose Master]

Meh, arguing semantics regarding genres is a convoluted mess at this point. Open world, rpg, etc have so little meaning as descriptors . When you can Google screenshots or video, it's kind of irrelevant to bother trying to shoehorn every game into the 16 sub genres it encompasses.

 

[Village]

While why something is called a metriodvania might be confusing to explain. Might be weird with copyright actually. I still feel like its common enough nomenclature for some folks to get, or many enough to not care too much about.

The one genre title I actually don't care for is jrpg, for a few reasons. One, an rpg being defined by its development location is much harder to because games are made all over the world now. The next one being due to in multiple visually representative mediums art style s are merging and things are being produced all over the world. No other genre has this split in area of creation.

So I think jrpg is a problem. Metriodvania while confusing to some. I feel is fine

 

[ZdkDzk]

Metroidvania is a good descriptor for how a game is structured, and highlights the nature of the progression mechanics and how the game opens up to the player. It's the same sort of label as 'linear progression' and 'open-world', and for that purpose, the term is ideal. Using that label as a genre statement in isolation is the error.

The problem is that unlike 'open-world' or 'rougue-like', the term 'metroidvania' is almost exclusively used to define genre (with no qualifier) rather than a mechanic. Which makes talking about any sidescroller with a non-linear world/level layout hard, especially since the name also implies the use of Castlevania mechanics for most people.

Valdys Story: Abysall City is a bright, colorful SotN style game with 2D character action combat. Axiom Verge is firmly a Metroid-like game with a dark and grotesque atmosphere and tone that screams horror. Most people are just going to call them both metroidvanias, with no qualifiers other than the 'scary one' and the 'character action one'. The term Metroidvania supersedes and replaces almost every other descriptor, which for a person who doesn't like metroidvanias but loves Metroid, is really irritating.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Have been saying these for years.

*Metroidvania: Qualifier used to denote games inside the Castlevania series that are similar to Zelda Metroid in some design aspects.

After that use: Metroid Like, Zelda Like or "Melda" if you desperately need a portmanteau for games that share similar traits to those series.

*As an aside: i don't think it's possible to pin point where and when exactly "Metroidvania" was coined. Since SOTN is so similar to Metroid a lot of people started to use the term instinctively, internet wasn't as widespread at that time for the meme to bloom from there.

Edit: Meant Zelda.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

Have been saying these for years.

*Metroidvania: Qualifier used to denote games inside the Castlevania series that are similar to Zelda in some design aspects.

After that use: Metroid Like, Zelda Like or "Melda" if you desperately need a portmanteau for games that share similar traits to those series.

*As an aside: i don't think it's possible to pin point where and when exactly "Metroidvania" was coined. Since SOTN is so similar to Metroid a lot of people started to use the term instinctively, internet wasn't as widespread at that time for the meme to bloom from there.

Zetroid sounds better than Melda to me.

 

[jstripes]

The term "metroidvania" is clunky and pretentious, we really could use a better word, but in reference to a genre it's fine.

Someone's gotta be angry about something, though.

 

[yyr]

It's a term of reference most gamers are familiar with.

This, basically.

It's like the term "flat-screen TV." What "flat screen" actually means is a CRT with a flat outer surface. "Flat panel" was the correct term for LCDs. But the mainstream just all started calling them "flat screens" and the term stuck. It still bothers me, but that's just the way it is.

"Metroidvania" is now the common, accepted term for this sort of game and it's not going away.

 

[killroy87]

It's a term of reference most gamers are familiar with. Not everything in the world is cause for insightful, deep academic debate. Fuck.

Don't tell this to Waypoint, it's literally what that site runs on.

 

[Zakalwe]

eidt: double post

 

[Zakalwe]

It's a term of reference most gamers are familiar with. Not everything in the world is cause for insightful, deep academic debate. Fuck.

God damn it, ubi, you almost killed the thread have mercy!

It's not that useful and that's the video guy's point

When people apply the same term to Toki Tori 2 and Dark Souls it is getting somewhat useless.

It's nebulous /only/ if you're not an enthusiast.

The majority of us here know exactly what is meant when the term is used. Mostly it means level design that requires backtracking and items used to unlock new areas.

The core things that Metroid and Castlevania were built around.

 

[DrROBschiz]

It's a term of reference most gamers are familiar with. Not everything in the world is cause for insightful, deep academic debate. Fuck.

post of the thread

fucking boom

 

[Zakalwe]

From the wiki page dedicated to the subgenre:

Metroidvania games generally feature a large interconnected world map the player can explore, though access to parts of the world is often limited by doors or other portals that can only be opened after the player has acquired special items, tools, weapons or abilities within the game.

Which is exactly what almost everyone uses it for.

 

[yurinka]

Players are who decide if a genre has to continue and what is its name. Not a random unknown youtuber.

 

[spazchicken]

There's a lot of words that don't mean what they originally intended to, or don't make sense in general. When someone says "Metroidvania" everyone knows what they are talking about. It works.

What I can't stand is stupid sounding words being made the term for genres like "shmup". Why would you coin such an ugly sounding word for a type of game you're supposed to be fond of? It sound derogatory.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

Those two examples are things that greatly expanded, not contracted like this genre has. It's stuck.

There's not going to be the Metroidvana version of the Playstation, or Wolfenstein, Goldeneye, and Halo that causes language to change. The term has stuck and evolved past the original meaning.

I agree. That's why there's need to be a concious effort in this case imo

These games have been metroidvanias since at least the early 2000s. Steam has cemented the term with an official category to search for these types of games. Hell, do a simple search for metroidvania on google and you will get links to hundreds of articles about games in the genre. I think we are good.

Steam categories are pretty much made be the users themselves, so this isn't really a good point. And the whole point is that digibro (and me and some other people) do not think "we are good", but are being brushed of as pedantic. Language is way more important than what people here are giving it credit for, if we can make it better and not worse, we're winning. I love how everyone keeps pointing that "it's such an easy to understand label???" well yeah, you're on NeoGAF of course you'd be familiar, but Metroid and "Vania" have no meaning whatsoever and are in fact other completely different games that should not be used as descriptors

 

[DarkConfidant]

It's a term of reference most gamers are familiar with. Not everything in the world is cause for insightful, deep academic debate. Fuck.

Nailed it on the first reply!

Let's go home GAF.

 

[Nuu]

I may not think it is the best term either, but I'll accept it because at least it's consistent and makes sense. However, tothing is more dumb than "Character Action Game" like holy shit. Not only does it describe nothing, but it misses the point of what makes the genre standout. Bayonetta and Devil May Cry are known for their deep and fast paced combat systems, not because of the main characters. Unlike hack-n-slash titles, in these games you master and experiment with a deep combat system rather than entering the same inputs over and over again. If there is a genre name that has to be changed, that's the one.

 

[spunodi]

I've found myself using the term 'non-linear platformer', generally because I never really got into Metroid or Castlevania but I like some examples of this type of game.

 

[Currygan]

Well both franchises are dead.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Yes. Non-linear playformers do exist. In fact, there's even a term we use for a specific kind of non-linear platformer that locks areas off through in game abilities or items.

why make a special term for it when we are already describing it

and again, the "locked areas" isn't particularly unique to it, also I do wonder if Tomba is a metroidvania

 

[Zakalwe]

Nothing is more dumb than "Character Action Game" like holy shit. Not only does it describe nothing, but it misses the point of what makes the genre standout. Bayonetta and Devil May Cry are known for their deep and fast paced combat systems, not because of the main characters.

It's an action game where the character you control has a lot of intricate moves like a fighting game, complex combos and move sets, etc...

Again, nebulous for outsiders but perfectly fine for those in the know, and for those who don't know the explanation to make them understand it is a very simple one.

 

[Nuu]

It's an action game where the character you control has a lot of intricate moves like a fighting game, complex combos and move sets, etc...

Again, nebulous for outsiders but perfectly fine for those in the know, and for those who don't know the explanation to make them understand it is a very simple one.

The term literally described nothing. "Complex combos and move sets" do not link with that term at all. "Character" is the wrong word to use here, because every game on the planet has you control a character. I always felt something like "Master Action" would make more sense. But something that is a little more catchy. The term needs to convey what makes the genre standout, which is people mastering a deep combat system and mechanics in a single player game, as they do in a fighting game.

 

[Eumi]

why make a special term for it when we are already describing it

and again, the "locked areas" isn't particularly unique to it, also I do wonder if Tomba is a metroidvania

Why call it a fan when you can already just call it a spinning coolant system?

 

[Zakalwe]

I've found myself using the term 'non-linear platformer', generally because I never really got into Metroid or Castlevania but I like some examples of this type of game.

A - "It's a non-linear platformer..."
B "You mean kind of like a metroidvania?"
A - "yes, exactly like that!"
B - "Then why didn't you use the term..."

Standard definitions make it easier, is all, but then I guess it doesn't really harm things if we're all able to parse the meaning anyway.

The idea that metroidvania doesn't make sense or should be removed is a stupid one, though (not aimed at you, I mean in general).

The term literally described nothing. "Complex combos and move sets" do not link with that term at all. "Character" is the wrong word to use here, because every game on the planet has you control a character.

But we all know what it means though, which is the entire point of a term like this, not how illogical you think the term is itself.

It works to describe what we mean, we don't really need it to be more than that. If we need to get more in-depth we're going to have to use more words anyway.

 

[chekhonte]

Watched the fist 5 minutes of the first video and he's already editing reality to make his point.

"super metroid only had 5 or 6 bosses and only really to cap off a level" Seriously? There are 11 bosses and some of them are in the middle of the level?

 

[Stevey]

Yeah, it's just a word that everyone instantly recognizes and understands the meaning of.

I will probably die before the term does.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Why call it a fan when you can already just call it a spinning coolant system?

that's a terrible example

In any case, my point is less about the word existing and more of people shoving in games that don't really fit the word they themselves made. Ori and Outland just vaguely go into the metroidvania definition.

 

[Nuu]

But we all know what it means though, which is the entire point of a term like this, not how illogical you think the term is itself.

It works to describe what we mean, we don't really need it to be more than that. If we need to get more in-depth we're going to have to use more words anyway.

Nobody outside of NeoGaf knows what that term means, so that's not that good of an argument.

Regardless, genre name changes have happened multiple times.

JRPGs used to be called Console RPGs. The name changed because WRPGs (formely known as Computer RPGS) began appearing on consoles so people had to adjust the term.

Platformers used to be called run and jumps, but the name had to be changed due to not only being too generic, but games like Adventure Island confusing people, so they changed the term.

Shoot-em-ups used to be simply called "shooters" but due to the rise of FPS genre and guns being in almost every game, they had to change the term as it became too generic. Genre relabeling to get across the intent happens all the time.

 

[Adam_Vania]

The former's more focused on platforming while SotN and "Igavanias" are designed more as side-scrolling Action-RPGs.

nope, they are both platform games. you spent most of SOTN jumping from platform to platform, or expanding your moveset so that you can reach new platforms.

Metroidvania is an easy to understand shorthand based on two immensely popular game franchises. getting rid of it would just make people say the words "adventure game" more. how is that helpful? also who is this digibro guy is he as generic as his name?

 

[Nuu]

nope, they are both platform games. you spent most of SOTN jumping from platform to platform, or expanding your moveset so that you can reach new platforms.

Metroidvania is an easy to understand shorthand based on two immensely popular game franchises. getting rid of it would just make people say the words "adventure game" more. how is that helpful? also who is this digibro guy is he as generic as his name?

To be fair the term sidescrolling action-adventure game would work or side-scrolling exploration action game as well. But...they take too long to say and are redundant. Even if you use an acronym it woudl be like SAAG or SEAG. It doesn't really roll off the tongue.