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Digibro: 'Metroidvania' Needs to Die
- Thread starter Tye The Czar
- Start date
old manatee
Banned
Metroidvania is a great term, and I know exactly​ what someone means when they use it.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
/thread
Said it once and i'll say it again. It's a dumb term. The people who use it thinks it makes them sound more knowledgeable than they are. It's doesn't.
Metroid borrowed nothing from Castlevania. Castlevania borrowed lots from Metroid. After 6-7 games that is that had no ties to the Metroid formula at all that is. Metroid was there first, it deserves to have it's moniker as a genre name.
I don't see how people can think otherwise.
Metroid borrowed nothing from Castlevania. Castlevania borrowed lots from Metroid. After 6-7 games that is that had no ties to the Metroid formula at all that is. Metroid was there first, it deserves to have it's moniker as a genre name.
I don't see how people can think otherwise.
It's not like anyone can do something about it.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
This is life. People have individual perceptions. There is no ISO or RFC on genres to fall back on in an argument. So all you can do is pull requirements and definitions out of your ass and wield them around like the god-given truth. But it won't mean shit. At the end of the day, a metroidvania is a game that is called just that, among a group of somehow similar games.
Liliana Eileen
Member
I don't know, Axiom Verge was pretty amazing.
Because for years they were the only two in town, so it was logical to shorthand Metroid/Catlevania into one unbrella term.
Language evolves out of necessity, not from choice.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
themagicalkitsune
Member
Only if you trim that rat's nest first.
CopperPuppy
Member
You said this uncertainty was only with so called community-made genres.seems like typical NoA than anything else tho
I've provided you with a thread where people cannot come to terms with two old-ass genres.
TheHolyTurnip
Member
Completely agree, Mastleroid is the obviously better term of and should be used at all times.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
D.Lo
Member
Posts like:
What's the best argument as to why it is a good term apart from 'it already exists'?
Or anyone saying '/thread' about such posts, are essentially just referring to its alleged popularity or ubiquitousness as a way of shutting down any argument about its merits or actual utility.
What's the best argument as to why it is a good term apart from 'it already exists'?
Metroidvania always came as a redundant term. They are refering to a Metroid game and then a set of castlevania games that play like a Metroid game. Why not just says Metroid game?
99% of the time, the games that using the term, share ZERO common traits with Castlevania. So why is it getting the praise as well? "Here's this game where you side-scroll through a map and get power-ups to get a new ability so you can progress further." That's a Metroid game.
99% of the time, the games that using the term, share ZERO common traits with Castlevania. So why is it getting the praise as well? "Here's this game where you side-scroll through a map and get power-ups to get a new ability so you can progress further." That's a Metroid game.
The bolded seems to be a lot of people's real problem with the term. Metroidvania is a description. It is not some kind of accolade that Castlevania is somehow depriving Metroid of.
I forgot about this thread for a few days but since you were replying to me here - and twisting my words - no, I don't agree that it's a bad term. Most people who play a significant amount of video games know what the term means, it has become a part of the gaming lexicon.
terrdactycalsrock
Member
Like "Digibro" is a good name? Metroidvania is fine it evokes the kind of gameplay that is to be expected from any given title with that moniker. It's a good way to quickly explain something about a game
D.Lo
Member
Why is it 'a good way'? Metroid-like, Metroid-style, Metroid clone - these all achieve the same thing with less syllables.
There is an argument that it could be applied to Metroid-like games with RPG cruft added, but few are making that argument, and most things described as Metroidvania do not have RPG crap. So now there is confusion.
IMO it's a bad way to describe a genre, because it either means just the Metroid pathfinder structure, in which case the vania is redundant and implies something wrong, or it describes Metroid-like games with RPG elements added, in which case the definition must be more strict.
The fact it is a popular term does not make it a good one.
It's an accepted part of the gaming lexicon, and has been for a long time. It immediately tells you what you can expect at a game's most basic level (side-scrolling, more or less free exploration, gated areas based on abilities, etc.). Additional detail and why a game is unique comes as the next step.
If anything, the "-vania" part does a disservice to the more linear (and sometimes preferred) style of Castlevania games.
If anything, the "-vania" part does a disservice to the more linear (and sometimes preferred) style of Castlevania games.
ScientificPizza
Banned
I don't like the term mostly because I think it's just lazy, but when someone says Metroidvania you know what kind of game they're talking about
Well, duh. Everything anywhere ever is due to some people.
Metroidvania currently is used for 2D side views only. To repeat myself: Don't look at made up definitions, look at the appliance.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
It could shift in that direction. Let's see what happens with the 3D Momodora.
AetoSuchian
Neo Member
Metroidlike is a worse term than Metroidvania imo. I'm fine with Exploratory Platformer but are people that bothered by Castlevania sharing credit with Metroid or something?
Zannegan
Member
People also use Metroidvania to describe any game with an open map-structure where progression is gated behind the acquisition of new abilities, but I think the "vania" implies or at least allows for the presence of RPG elements like leveling up through combat or equippable, stat-changing gear. A Metroid-like would be a more specific subset of Metroidvanias which more closely resembles Metroid than the rest of the group--no RPG elements, weapons are likely fixed, it likely has a sci-fi setting, etc. etc.
Refreshment.01
Member
This is something debated in the forums for years and even back to 1997/98 when some people quickly began to use it, since basically Symphony was borrowing heavily from the Metroid formula. Due the inherent "catchyness" of the term it began scaping it's original purpose and became more general but with this, less exact and thus less useful.
Yes, one can argue that's how language works but we live in a society that tries to ban certain words for many reasons, so why view it in a different light when within the videogame spectrum some want to reform back the original meaning of certain term?
Metroidvania is useful as a term when employed within the Castlevania series to denote the games under the branch that follow the Metroid formula. When ones refer in general to the genre, then it should be "Metroid like" just like there is "Rogue like". "Melda" could also work as there are many games that share elements of Zelda & Metroid (even these series in themselves share between them) and these 2 games popularized those styles.
Another thing of note is that Symphony of the Night has A LOT of afinity to another Nintendo game:
It is very similar to The Adventures of Link. For some reason people ignore this fact when the discussion is brought up. Yet Adventures is "Metroid Like" maybe as much as a "Zelda like" like.
Another argument in regards to how "Metroidvania" is used is similar to the most recent "Souls like" qualifier that people like to throw around. This is because it makes the person which uses the term look as not having a proper background on the subject, even when in reality they could be very knowledgable. There's no "Souls like" genre because the games don't brought up enough elements that weren't popular or commonly used in gaming at the time. That these From software games are amazing is not always enough to define a genre i would consider.
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Gun Animal
Member
Metroidvania is mostly used now to refer to a certain style of progression and world design, it's imperfect but I've yet to hear a better alternative. Maybe we can coin it in this thread? How about 'MacGuffin-Backtracking-Based Game Design' ?
...Yeah, Metroidvania it is.
...Yeah, Metroidvania it is.
JCK75
Member
The Term does need to die but because Metroid invented, the Castlevania that came out a month after Metroid was not of that design and they didn't even start the backtracking for items until Simons Quest.
So the genre belongs to Metroid entirely and Castlevania just ripped them off.
So the genre belongs to Metroid entirely and Castlevania just ripped them off.
Daymos
Member
metroidvania.. any game which forces you to acquire a specific power or usable item to progress further?? It's like anti-open world and specifically what Breath of the Wild tried to get away from. A simple mechanic which allows the developer to reuse areas and encourage backtracking, it was essential when game systems had very limited resources to work with.
In modern day though, I think older gamers (like me!) are more comfortable with those old styles of game design. It's more fun to play something if you can quickly understand it.
In modern day though, I think older gamers (like me!) are more comfortable with those old styles of game design. It's more fun to play something if you can quickly understand it.
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Strife In a Teacup
Member
I always thought Metroidvania was based off Symphony of the Night purely.
Terraria took it and perfected it, IMO.
Richieboothie
Member
I can't stand that term. So much time has passed that the new generation of gamers may not even know what the heck that means or what those series of games are.
AdmiralMikey
Member
I'd say the new generation would know the term more than the actual games its based off of, which is why it should continue to be used.
JCK75
Member
Just seems to be more sensible to credit the 1986 game that invented the format over the 1997 game that copied it.
AetoSuchian
Neo Member
Are there not Metroidvania games that predate Metroid as well? I've seen this "Metroid came first" argument repeatedly but I don't think this is true. (Brain Breaker and Xanadu).
Maybe Metroidlike works as a subset, but to me it creates confusion because what about games like Metroid Fusion and Metroid II which people are more divisive about? Does a Metroidlike inherently need to have sequence breaking? Is it about the sci-fi atmosphere?
Maybe Metroidlike works as a subset, but to me it creates confusion because what about games like Metroid Fusion and Metroid II which people are more divisive about? Does a Metroidlike inherently need to have sequence breaking? Is it about the sci-fi atmosphere?
Strife In a Teacup
Member
Sure, I just thought SoTN perfected it. Though I still think that game is way too short. I'd love a 50 hour Metroidvania.
Edit: not including the aforementioned Terraria which has heavy Metroidvania elements and I have hundreds of hours in across multiple platforms.
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Richieboothie
Member
If the term was mentioned to a gamer this generation, let's say 18 or younger, who had never played the originals, especially Castlevania considering it's not really in the press much anymore, they'd have nothing to compare a new game that is described as metroidvania. case in point, I asked numerous students a moment ago "what type of game do you think a metroidvania type is, and not one student (all of whom are 17 and 18), not one of them knew the answer. My point is that if they've never heard of the titles, there's no way to properly convey what that vein that game falls into without showing it to them and saying, here's a metroidvania game.
Not arguing with you, just provoking discussion.
Refreshment.01
Member
This is the type of topics that makes one think about the necessecity of having an actual "Academia of Videogames". But one held by actual historians and videogame developers not English Majors with youtube channels passing of as intelectuals.
At the macro level Metroid is a "Zelda like" that prioritized other aspects and mechanics: Shooting, "path finding", more structured progression and platforming on a sci-fi environement. In the end these elements were sufficient to diffirentiate the game enough to be considered it's own thing past it's obvious influence.
Now, here's the thing, why exactly the "Metroidvania" term was coined after Symphony of the Night when it (or any other of the less "standard" Castlevanias) was preceded by the 1986 Zelda/Metroid & the 1987 Adventure of Link without introducing much of anything new over these past games? And why it should be used to define a genre?
i just saw the Digibro video. It seems Digi has all the puzzle pieces but can quiet emssemble the puzzle, to the point of not having some facts straight and reaching wrong conclusions. I.E.: He's aware of Zelda II existance but seems to think is totally different to Symphony because "there's not enough side scrolling play and combat focus", which is factually wrong dungeons and temples are proof enough. But overall, Digi makes a good arguement when he says that "Igavania" could be a good name to distinguish the Metroid like games within the confines of the Castlevania series.
Particulary don't have anything against the term itself, save for the fact that is not been employed in the most useful way. i think it should stay as long as is employed to define the subset of Castlevania games popularized after Symphony of the Night.
Well yes, in most of these cases there tends to be a "Proto game" which introduced the concept first. However, there's lots of considerations to make:AetoSuchian said:
- a)Was the concept in the proto game substantially realised?
- b)Did the "credited" game brough up enough new stuff and refined significantly the proto game's formula?
- c)Did the proto game kickstarted a raise of those type of games or was the "credited" one?
The "sci-fi" atmosphere is mainly a presentation element in this case. For games that prioritize "gameplay" is possible to have 2 different games that are the same at it's core but with different settings I.E: A WWII COD/Medal of Honor/or a COD like Infinity Warfare.AetoSuchian said:
At the macro level Metroid is a "Zelda like" that prioritized other aspects and mechanics: Shooting, "path finding", more structured progression and platforming on a sci-fi environement. In the end these elements were sufficient to diffirentiate the game enough to be considered it's own thing past it's obvious influence.
Now, here's the thing, why exactly the "Metroidvania" term was coined after Symphony of the Night when it (or any other of the less "standard" Castlevanias) was preceded by the 1986 Zelda/Metroid & the 1987 Adventure of Link without introducing much of anything new over these past games? And why it should be used to define a genre?
i just saw the Digibro video. It seems Digi has all the puzzle pieces but can quiet emssemble the puzzle, to the point of not having some facts straight and reaching wrong conclusions. I.E.: He's aware of Zelda II existance but seems to think is totally different to Symphony because "there's not enough side scrolling play and combat focus", which is factually wrong dungeons and temples are proof enough. But overall, Digi makes a good arguement when he says that "Igavania" could be a good name to distinguish the Metroid like games within the confines of the Castlevania series.
Particulary don't have anything against the term itself, save for the fact that is not been employed in the most useful way. i think it should stay as long as is employed to define the subset of Castlevania games popularized after Symphony of the Night.
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AetoSuchian
Neo Member
It doesn't make sense that games before Metroid are somehow only "proto-games" and not actually in the subgenre when there's the repeated argument of "Metroid came first". It just seems like it's moving the goalposts.
I think what Metroid AND Castlevania did was popularize(keyword: popularize) the concept of progression through abilities and platforming. They didn't create the concepts but they remain some of the most iconic examples in the subgenre. Sometimes it's not about being THE creator or the most original but being a good solid example of what can be done.
If people personally don't like the Castlevania games post-SOTN, that's their preference. But I feel like there's fallacious thinking involved in how Metroidvania is viewed.
I think what Metroid AND Castlevania did was popularize(keyword: popularize) the concept of progression through abilities and platforming. They didn't create the concepts but they remain some of the most iconic examples in the subgenre. Sometimes it's not about being THE creator or the most original but being a good solid example of what can be done.
If people personally don't like the Castlevania games post-SOTN, that's their preference. But I feel like there's fallacious thinking involved in how Metroidvania is viewed.
Rising_Hei
Member
This is pointless imo. Games will call things however they want and that's totally allright.
Running out of ideas for videos, perhaps?
Running out of ideas for videos, perhaps?
