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[ShockingAlberto]

Guess what Metroid fans want? They want a 2D Metroid game.

They don't want another Other M.

They sure as fuck don't want another Federation Force.

This isn't hard to figure out and it's not as impossible as you make it out to be. This isn't Zelda.

Well, it's not Zelda because it's not successful.

But you have people in this thread clamoring for Metroid Prime rather than 2D Metroids. If we really got down to it, you could likely sub-divide the 2D and 3D fanbases even further.

You have gotten so emotionally wrapped up in this that you view it as simplistically and childishly as possible.

Do it internally or sell the IP. That's their choices. Period. Re-selling the same shit on Virtual Console over and over will only go so far. Outsourcing the IP to Retro, Next Level Games, Team Ninja, etc. gets the series farther away from Nintendo's grasp of trying to understand the series again. IMO, they don't know what the fuck to do with it, and haven't for a long time. So again, ideally, they have an internal team at Nintendo make an honest Metroid game or toss it. Because it's just sitting there right now and it's just doing jackshit for them

So, do they know that you're giving them this ultimatum?

 

[Dark Cloud]

Nintendo's gotta do it themselves. No Japanese studio gives a damn about Metroid. It doesn't matter what Nintendo personnel drives it, it won't be enough for that development team, regardless of who it is, to see it as anything other than just another job.




You can't innovate a series when the creative minds behind it are so far removed from the series. That's the point I'm making. "Outsourcing is fine" if you just want to continue to make watered-down clones that will only damage the series further. If Nintendo considered Metroid a western IP, Other M and Federation Force would not exist, because by the definition of it being a western IP, Other M and Federation Force are spiteful parodies.

We haven't had a 2D Metroid in a very long time. Just bringing it back is good. An indie dev or third party dev (probably Climax) can handle it with Nintendo watching them. Other M was a screw up and I don't think they meant harm with FF. I think they had plans for another mainline Metroid Prime game along with FF as a spinoff. Something could've gone wrong with the mainline MP game and they were left with releasing FF.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

And SS was a response to criticism of TP. And TP was a repsonse to WW.

Zelda team actually listens a lot.

Yeah, I don't understand why people think this started with BotW.
They're like one of the most reactive AAA teams at Nintendo afaik.
Eager to bend over backwards in response to each and every little esoteric criticism that is lobbed at their critically acclaimed, multi-million selling games.

 

[Cerium]

It's also kind of funny since they basically outsourced Metroid to Retro to make the Prime series that people seem to like.

How is that outsourcing?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Yeah, I don't understand why people think this started with BotW.
They're like one of the most reactive AAA teams at Nintendo afaik.
Eager to bend over backwards in response to each and every little esoteric criticism that is lobbed at their critically acclaimed, multi-million selling games.

I think the Zelda team is definitely reactionary to complaints, but not necessarily to wish lists. At least ignoring Twilight Princess.

If you listened to what Zelda fans wanted, you absolutely wouldn't have gotten BotW. You'd get some weird Chimera.

 

[James Scott]

How is that outsourcing?

They weren't first party when they started

 

[KingBroly]

Well, it's not Zelda because it's not successful.

But you have people in this thread clamoring for Metroid Prime rather than 2D Metroids. If we really got down to it, you could likely sub-divide the 2D and 3D fanbases even further.

You have gotten so emotionally wrapped up in this that you view it as simplistically and childishly as possible.

So, do they know that you're giving them this ultimatum?

Again, I simply don't trust Nintendo with the series anymore, and neither do a lot of other people. That's their fault. Continuing to outsource, regardless of the quality of those games shows that they have no confidence in their ability to do the series justice anymore. Until they take the reigns again, i.e. no Retro, NLG, Team Ninja, etc. it's going to continue down the rocky side of the Mountain until they impale it on the rocks at the bottom.

 

[James Scott]

Again, I simply don't trust Nintendo with the series anymore, and neither do a lot of other people. That's their fault. Continuing to outsource, regardless of the quality of those games shows that they have no confidence in their ability to do the series justice anymore. Until they take the reigns again, i.e. no Retro, NLG, Team Ninja, etc. it's going to continue down the rocky side of the Mountain until they impale it on the rocks at the bottom.

The Zelda team could easily make an amazing Metroid. But that's a waste of their talents and resources since Metroid doesn't sell which is why it gets outsourced which is why the franchise is where it is

 

[D_prOdigy]

Just to let people know I had a dream last night that Team Ninja was doing it again if anyone wants to make the thread

 

[DMONKUMA]

Just to let people know I had a dream last night that Team Ninja was doing it again if anyone wants to make the thread

I think we need a predictions thread.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

I honestly think Team Ninja would have done a fine job with Metroid if Sakamoto dialed back his dumb ideas.

I also honestly think Next Level would have done a fine job with Metroid Prime if Tanabe dialed back his dumb ideas.

 

[watershed]

I honestly think Team Ninja would have done a fine job with Metroid if Sakamoto dialed back his dumb ideas.

I also honestly think Next Level would have done a fine job with Metroid Prime if Tanabe dialed back his dumb ideas.

I agree about the Team Ninja bit. Other M was hampered right out the gate with Sakamoto's goal of making the whole game playable with just 1 sideways wiimote and his narrative desire.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

I think the Zelda team is definitely reactionary to complaints, but not necessarily to wish lists. At least ignoring Twilight Princess.

If you listened to what Zelda fans wanted, you absolutely wouldn't have gotten BotW. You'd get some weird Chimera.

True, true.

 

[jdstorm]

What studio could handle Metroid? And don't say From Software because I don't want From Software to do it.

So many studios don't even make anything like Metroid. And there's a good chance selling the IP like you want would only bring further shame to the series because it's not what you want.

Dontnod, Remedy, Armature and Highwire instantly spring to mind.

Edit:
Dontnod have proven they can do narative experiences that can sell in the west, something Nintendo typically isnt revered for, they can do big budget AAA work thats mechanically sound (Remember Me). Primarily they would need Nintendo's help on mechanics and level design. Something that is Nintendo's strong suit.

Highwire: Ex bungie Devs led by Jamie Griesemer a man who's resume speaks for itself. Halo 1-3, Destiny and Infamous Second Son (an incredibly underrated game.) The biggest question is probably if they would even want it.

Remedy: they are expanding and are known for good writing and fantastic TPS mechanics. Would need Nintendo's help on world design, but they are a great option. If they arent busy.

Armature: for obvious reasons.

 

[Nanashrew]

Dontnod, Armature and Highwire instantly spring to mind.

Armature would be hilarious tbh since they're former Retro.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Dontnod, Armature and Highwire instantly spring to mind.

yeah dontnod is really good about not letting story interfere with gameplay

 

[Cerium]

Get the Dead Space guys to do it.

 

[Lijik]

To be fair, the batting average for a third party collaborated Metroid is really bad. Retro was bought and they had Miyamoto and Tanabe working incredibly close and upending tea tables. Miyamoto being the one to say it should be first-person when Retro was originally going to make it third-person.

Tanabe recommend Retro because of Michael Kelbaugh, the CEO of Retro, worked on the original Donkey Kong Country games back when he worked for NOA. Donkey Kong Country Returns code name was Project F8 because Kelbaugh thought it was fate.

If anything, they should be stricter with who they give Metroid too, and be willing to upend tea tables like they did for Retro.

I dont really care how DKCR got greenlit the example could have just as easily been Rocksteady making Arkham Origins. What Im saying is "No one has experience" doesnt really mean much in an industry where theres been so many left field projects. I mean yeah its unhelpful for forum guessing games, but that doesnt mean someone out there cant.

 

[Ushojax]

The closest indusrty analogues to where Metroid games should be aiming are Halo, Destiny, Overwatch and to a lesser extent Titanfall. All of those games/series have passed 10M in sales for at least one game.

I honestly think Team Ninja would have done a fine job with Metroid if Sakamoto dialed back his dumb ideas.

I also honestly think Next Level would have done a fine job with Metroid Prime if Tanabe dialed back his dumb ideas.

Any bad game could be good in an alternate universe where the entire production process was different. The last two Metroid products ended up the way they were because, and I don't like saying this, the producers in Japan no longer understand the series. Both Sakamoto and Tanabe designed games that were always going to be despised.

Federation Force was not a bad idea in a broad sense, but they chose a platform completely ill suited for both FPS and the complexity of level design that Metroid Prime requires. The concept of ordinary troopers having to team up to navigate Metroid environments without Samus' powers, that sounds good. Putting them all in visor/arm-cannon equipped robots and making them trudge through bland N64-looking corridors, was not. It was the most asinine way to execute the basic concept, but due to the internal authority of Tanabe (and Sakamoto with Other M) there was no way to correct course and avoid a disaster. Team Ninja and Next Level were just code monkeys who did as they were told.

Nintendo need to realise that Metroid has outgrown the old producers at NCL and needs a more modern vision from someone else. Metroid Prime is almost 15 years old yet it has barely aged a day, it is still an elegantly designed game in every regard. Federation Force and Other M felt dated and awkward the second they came out, they took the series backwards in every way. It's embarrassing that games as crude as FF and Other M were expected to continue the legacy of Super and Prime.

 

[D_prOdigy]

Dontnod, Remedy, Armature and Highwire instantly spring to mind.

Edit:
Dontnod have proven they can do narative experiences that can sell in the west, something Nintendo typically isnt revered for, they can do big budget AAA work thats mechanically sound (Remember Me).

deepest lore

 

[rhandino]

Dontnod, Remedy, Armature and Highwire instantly spring to mind.

[...]

Armature: for obvious reasons.

Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate and ReCore?

 

[Cerium]

I wasn't joking about the Dead Space guys btw. They can nail isolation and tension in a dark sci-fi setting where story is told largely by the environment and codex entries.

 

[jdstorm]

yeah dontnod is really good about not letting story interfere with gameplay

What Metroid needs is a story team. If Nintendo just want gameplay some young designers with minimal experience and Tantalus or a ghost studio could make a solid and cheap Metroid game. What Nintendo needs are writers who can do a well crafted minimalist story with a mix of Western and Japanese sensibilities.

These designers would almost certainly have to be european and most likely be French*. Other M mechanically isnt so bad, but its narative and its treatment of the Samus Aran character were offensive to western sensibilities and so Nintendo essentilly made a game for nobody.

So what would a metroid game need to be successful to both a western and japanese audiences?

Looking at the most successful games in japan in 2016 your top list includes Pokemon, FFXV, Yo-kai watch 3, Dragon Quest Builders, Monster Hunter Stories/Generations and Dark Souls

In 2015 it was Monster Hunter, Yo-Kai watch, animal crossing, splatoon and Dragon Quest 8.

From this its pretty easy to extrapolate how you would combine these 2 lists with western sensibilities. Metroid design is essentially an ability gated open world.

So take a Metroid style open world, fill it with withered European style landscapes (forrests ect) and arcitecture, mechanically challenging enemies IE Monster Hunter/Soulsbourne and a small base building/crafting system for Samus to restock her Gear/Ship (Dragon Quest Builders, Monster Hunter ect)

Then give the player standardised FPS/TPS controls, an asthetic that says stylish but not cute (like Final Fantasy) and a T rating. That game would be a global hit.

*This is complete BS on my part, but i personally feel French and Japanese culture tends to mesh really well (see Final Fantasy Series, Chrono series, Rain, Gravity Rush ect) yet the western sensibilities in French culture also brings it close enough to American Culture that it has the potential to be a crossover hit.

 

[KingBroly]

I dont really care how DKCR got greenlit the example could have just as easily been Rocksteady making Arkham Origins. What Im saying is "No one has experience" doesnt really mean much in an industry where theres been so many left field projects. I mean yeah its unhelpful for forum guessing games, but that doesnt mean someone out there cant.

If there's a game a 3D, third person Metroid game should inspire to play like just from a pure movement standpoint, it's Arkham Asylum.

Now hold on before you go bonkers over this, hear me out. You get the slow walking parts that are at your pace where you can freely move around and aren't hampered by auto turning mechanics that Other M had, but you pull the camera out when you start running and ultimately into a Speed Booster. Crouching would be your Morph Ball (perhaps a little faster than run speed instead of it being even like in AA, but not as fast as speed booster).

But that's just how I think it should play until someone comes along and proves me otherwise. I simply cannot think of a better example.

 

[Cerium]

What Metroid needs is a story team.

I mean at that point you might as well make a new IP.

 

[jonno394]

So take a Metroid style open world, fill it with withered European style landscapes (forrests ect) and arcitecture, mechanically challenging enemies IE Monster Hunter/Soulsbourne and a small base building/crafting system for Samus to restock her Gear/Ship (Dragon Quest Builders, Monster Hunter ect)

Huh? The rest I can sort of get behind, but Metroid is sci-fi, I want strange Alien looking worlds that bear no resemblance to our own, why would I want to see architecture that I see in my everyday life?

 

[Neptonic]

Some of these ideas being thrown around in here make me think people don't like what Metroid games are

 

[Ushojax]

What Metroid needs is a story team.

Yeah.....no. What Metroid needs is a return to the complex and intriguing level design that made the series a success. The story is the least important thing. We need a Breath of the Wild type rejuvenation that can bring a modern take on the core essence of the series, like Prime did 15 years ago.

 

[Heyt]

Vigil games were the chosen ones to make Metroid great again.

Now the only way it could be as good as it needs requires Nintendo fighting with Sony for From Software's time.

 

[Nanashrew]

I dont really care how DKCR got greenlit the example could have just as easily been Rocksteady making Arkham Origins. What Im saying is "No one has experience" doesnt really mean much in an industry where theres been so many left field projects. I mean yeah its unhelpful for forum guessing games, but that doesnt mean someone out there cant.

I mean, I'm saying they had someone of experience at Retro while also working closely with people at Nintendo who also have experience in platformers.

But you're also right too. I'm an F-Zero fan, I know what you're talking about. I'd take a new F-Zero from just about anyone.

Mostly where I've come from is those maniacs in the Metroid fandom don't care about a lot of stuff and why I aimed that "it would just bring shame to the series because it's not what you want." Look at KingBroly's posts. There are a lot more like him. They don't want large narrative and stories. They don't want any possible chance for another Other M (or for some, they also don't want another Metroid Fusion). Most want it to return to its roots with Super Metroid and Prime 1 (which is based from Super Metroid).

Metroid is in a terrible position. It's not a high selling series. Someone compared sales earlier in this thread that how much is sold is comparable to the Kirby series. But Kirby series isn't high budget like Metroid can get if we continued to get more Prime games. Budgets increase, but continuing to sell to the same base won't help the series. But trying something new or alternative seems to rile up the Metroid fans which doesn't help matters either.

 

[Spladam]

I think Retro has lost too much key talent from the days of Prime to make that magic happen again sadly. I foresee a new Metroid entry anytime in the near future. But I'd buy a Switch if it were announced all the same.

 

[DecoReturns]

Yeah.....no. What Metroid needs is a return to the complex and intriguing level design that made the series a success. The story is the least important thing.

While I agree I would like for it to return to its level design of Prime and Super Metroid. That success struggled to reach high sales, even with Universal Acclaim.

A good/great narrative could actually help the Metroid franchise grow.

 

[Cerium]

While I agree I would like for it to return to its level design of Prime and Super Metroid. That success struggled to reach high sales, even with Universal Acclaim.

Revisionist history. Prime was one of the best selling titles on a platform with a pitiful install base.

 

[Ushojax]

While I agree I would like for it to return to its level design of Prime and Super Metroid. That success struggled to reach high sales, even with Universal Acclaim.

A good/great narrative could actually help the Metroid franchise grow.

Metroid is a relatively serious, complex scifi series and it's sales are always going to be limited by that. We already saw what happened when they tried to reduce the gameplay complexity and add a fancy story. They need to focus on getting the gameplay structure right, the story is a much lesser priority.

 

[jdstorm]

Huh? The rest I can sort of get behind, but Metroid is sci-fi, I want strange Alien looking worlds that bear no resemblance to our own, why would I want to see architecture that I see in my everyday life?

I explained myself poorly. My brain was visualising a mix of the familiar/unfamiliar. I'm writing Forrest and I'm thinking Avatar/Xenoblade/Final Fantasy. Im writing European Arcitecture and I'm thinking of an Arc D'Triumph half buried into a forgotten mountain. Ect

I honestly don't know why i care this much about a pointless discussion. Nintendo are likely making a new metroid game and its likely nearing completion, and i personally while intrigued by metroid design certainly wouldnt list any Metroid game amongst my personal favourites.

As for how to cheaply reinvent the series. Something exclusive for mobile is probably the way to go. Throw in some Samus skins, the right gatcha mechanics and then print money.

 

[Nanashrew]

Revisionist history. Prime was one of the best selling titles on a platform with a pitiful install base.

Yeah, Prime 1 sold really well. Then it just went down to more or less normal Metroid levels with 2 and 3 IIRC.

 

[DecoReturns]

Revisionist history. Prime was one of the best selling titles on a platform with a pitiful install base.

Yeah, almost 3 million was great, but sales dipped after Prime. I don't think Prime 2 or 3 were able to get to 2 million. I think even the Trilogy struggled to get to a million. Its gameplay was there, but maybe something else was missing.

Of course it could just be Metroid is a series limited by its premise/structure. I'm just saying, a compelling narrative with its Prime gameplay could help.

 

[Dark Cloud]

So I'm watching PlayerEssences video and he talked about SMDs rumor. Apparently, SMD said Retro was working on a new IP and a Metroid game. Then Climax was also working on another Metroid game.

I thought it was only one Metroid game, but I guess he said two Metroid games.

Anyways nobody has to respond to this. I know everyone despises SMD, but I just wanted to throw it out there what his rumor actually said.

 

[TheMoon]

Broly, you need to move on. You're hung up on your ex. Get over it. You don't care about Metroid, you care about Super Metroid. Realize that, play the dozens of clones that tap into that. Stop this endless tirade and crusade. It got old years ago. Grow up. Seriously.

This was a perfectly fine thread about people not realizing a composer and sound designer might be either composing or doing sound design work once. Now it's your usual "Metroid fans tell you what's best for the series" shitfest.

So.

About that Cranky Tropics Racing...

Yeah, almost 3 million was great, but sales dipped after Prime. I don't think Prime 2 or 3 were able to get to 2 million. .

Prime 2 and 3 just barely scraped over the million mark, far way from the 2m, yea.

 

[KingBroly]

Broly, you need to move on. You're hung up on your ex. Get over it. You don't care about Metroid, you care about Super Metroid. Realize that, play the dozens of clones that tap into that. Stop this endless tirade and crusade. It got old years ago. Grow up. Seriously.

This was a perfectly fine thread about people not realizing a composer and sound designer might be either composing or doing sound design work once. Now it's your usual "Metroid fans tell you what's best for the series" shitfest.

I simply want the series to go out on a good note.

That's all any Metroid fan really wants at this point. One last hurrah.

 

[HawthorneKitty]

I simply want the series to go out on a good note.

That's all any Metroid fan really wants at this point. One last hurrah.

You need to get some air.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I simply want the series to go out on a good note.

That's all any Metroid fan really wants at this point. One last hurrah.

lol what's wrong with you? Just relax man.

 

[Kissenkopf]

I simply want the series to go out on a good note.

That's all any Metroid fan really wants at this point. One last hurrah.

Dry you eyes mate. I know you want to make them see how much this pain hurts but you've got to walk away now. It's over.

 

[KingBroly]

lol what's wrong with you? Just relax man.

You're really misreading here.

Just give players a sense of finality about it. Make them feel good about Metroid again.
That's all they have to do.

 

[J@hranimo]

I'm concerned with the state of this thread now....Metroid isn't dead, but I also don't think Retro is making a new game.

I do believe the next Metroid will be 2D. I think we'll also see it at E3.

 

[TheMoon]

I'm concerned with the state of this thread now....Metroid isn't dead, but I also don't think Retro is making a new game.

I do believe the next Metroid will be 2D. I think we'll also see it at E3.

Now that I can subscribe to.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

Since a 2D game would cost less but would be a pretty good point to see whether people are interested in the series (if the game is any good, that is). Maybe they will do a 3D one with higher budget if the 2D one does well enough.

 

[James Scott]

Dontnod, Remedy, Armature and Highwire instantly spring to mind.

Edit:
Dontnod have proven they can do narative experiences that can sell in the west, something Nintendo typically isnt revered for, they can do big budget AAA work thats mechanically sound (Remember Me). Primarily they would need Nintendo's help on mechanics and level design. Something that is Nintendo's strong suit.

Highwire: Ex bungie Devs led by Jamie Griesemer a man who's resume speaks for itself. Halo 1-3, Destiny and Infamous Second Son (an incredibly underrated game.) The biggest question is probably if they would even want it.

Remedy: they are expanding and are known for good writing and fantastic TPS mechanics. Would need Nintendo's help on world design, but they are a great option. If they arent busy.

Armature: for obvious reasons.

Armature is made out of RETRO employees that wanted out of Nintendo. They were even kicked out of the building due to trying to recruit more people for their studio. They're likely why RETRO stuck with DK since they pilfered some of their talent needed for the Prime games...however, despite being around for 9 years they've yet to make a quality original title so I'm not sure why people would want them to make a Metroid.
Also I imagine Nintendo isn't too fond of them

I honestly think Team Ninja would have done a fine job with Metroid if Sakamoto dialed back his dumb ideas.

I also honestly think Next Level would have done a fine job with Metroid Prime if Tanabe dialed back his dumb ideas.

Team Ninja went on to make Ninja Gaiden 3 and they're not exactly known for quality stories nor their level design. At least at the time

 

[Dark Cloud]

Climax Studios has been outright denying this rumor.

https://mobile.twitter.com/climaxstudios/status/861567585544024065

https://mobile.twitter.com/climaxstudios/status/861567500017860610

Climax Studios @climaxstudios

Replying to @graystripe2000 and 2 others
Oh my god. We aren't doing this.
5:04 AM · May 8, 2017

 

[QuixoticNeutral]

Climax Studios has been outright denying this rumor.

https://mobile.twitter.com/climaxstudios/status/861567585544024065

https://mobile.twitter.com/climaxstudios/status/861567500017860610

Good expectations management from their part, nipping it in the bud before people get inexplicably angry at them for not being involved in something that they were never in the position of being involved in anyway.

Can we take their word for it and go back to lamenting the implications of how the perfectly interesting Alexander Brandon is not David Wise?