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I've occasionally referred to these games as the Trilogy of Betrayal, because they were sequels to incredibly, insanely successful games that ended up being incredibly, insanely different from their predecessors. As a child, it was kind of difficult not to feel cheated by these games that used an incredibly popular brand to make you buy something that you were not at all expecting.

At the time you played these games, were you excited, enjoyed, and satisfied? Or were you annoyed and frustrated?

Looking back today - do you consider any of them classics? Do you consider any of them terrible? Which holds up the best today?

A brief recap of each game:

Zelda 2 - went from being an overhead adventure game to some weird hybrid sidescroller/RPG with random encounters and an XP system for character progression. Had towns full of NPCs that you interacted with. You kinda went from feeling like a badass adventurer with a sword to this piddly little guy with a 4" dagger. The difficulty curve was rough and the random encounters were pretty annoying when all you really wanted to do was explore and find the next dungeon.

Castlevania 2 - went from a level-based action-platformer to a very rough, primitive version of Metroidvania. You collected and equipped different items, but progression wasn't really through the acquisition of new abilities. Had a day/night system that mostly just proved annoying. Like Zelda 2, you could visit towns, buy stuff from vendors, and get progression clues from NPCs. The game is notorious for its "There's no way you could have figured that out without a guide" secrets, though it's been so long I'm not sure how prevalent it really was. Like Metroid 1 before it, the game probably would have benefitted from an in-game map feature.

Super Mario Brothers 2 - probably the least radical re-imagining of a franchise, but still a pretty big departure from its predecessor. As far as I can recall, it's the only Mario game where you can't kill enemies by jumping on them -- you have to pick stuff up and throw it at them. Platforming felt kinda secondary to puzzle solving and throwing stuff. It had a cast of multiple player-characters that was interesting, though. The art design was top-notch and while it was incredibly different from Mario 1 its off-the-wall nature kinda felt natural given the Mario wackiness that the first game established.

 

[Cess007]

do you consider any of them classics?

Without doubt. Personally, I love all 3. They're some of my favorites games ever; and maybe, maybe, even superior to their predecessors (at least, I like Mario 2 and Castlevania 2 more than the originals)

 

[Dog Problems]

I can't even pick a "worst." I love all three, with Simon's Quest being my favorite of the bunch.

 

[Cow Mengde]

Fire Emblem Gaiden

 

[Dreamwriter]

You missed the worst of the bunch: Metal Gear: Snake's Revenge. They took a top-down stealth adventure title and turned it into a side-scrolling action shooter.

 

[PKrockin]

I'll take sequels like Zelda 2 and SMB2 over sequels like Mega Man 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 any day.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Zelda II, but I also adore SMB2. Simon's Quest is a cruel game (but I still like it).

I'm super happy to have experienced them all growing up.

 

[jackal27]

Mario 2 was first Mario game ever and is objectively better than Lost Levels in my opinion.

I'm gonna go with

- Mario 2
- Zelda 2
- Simon's Quest

Zelda 2 has its problems and is way too difficult, but it's actually playable unlike Simon's Quest, which has a whole slew of problems.

Fire Emblem Gaiden

You hush. That game is great, just different.

 

[Prince of Space]

It's actually Final Fantasy II

 

[BriGuy]

I like them all, and each is still a classic in its own right. If I had to pick a "best" out of them, it would be Mario 2 because its still a fun romp to go back and revisit even today. As for a "worst," that would be Castlevania 2, because fuck invisible floors and those flying jelly things in the mansions.

 

[jackal27]

It's actually Final Fantasy II

This is actually not a wrong opinion. Dragon Quest 2 on the NES is also pretty awful because of its horrible balance issues. Dragon Quest 3 on the other hand is probably the bet RPG on the NES.

 

[mindsale]

Zelda 2 and Mario 2 are among my favorites in their respective franchises. Simon's Quest is hot fucking garbage though. Kneel at the edge of a screen for thirty seconds until a tornado picks you up? Fuck outta here.

 

[Fumpster]

I haven't played Castlevania 2, though I am aware of its legacy.

Honestly, I think SMB2 and Zelda 2 are pretty damn good. Zelda 2 in particular gets way too much shit than it deserves, though I will admit that it's vastly improved with a walkthrough at your side.

 

[jwhit28]

SQ is the only one I have never been able too get through. I rather play SMB2 and Zelda 2 than their predecessors.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

SMB 2, no contest. I loved that game, and I kinda still do.

Zelda 2 was a game I didn't play as a kid, heard a lot of divisive comments over the years, but ended up really digging it.

I wasn't feeling Simon's Quest.

 

[shawnbuddy]

All three are great. Simon's Quest is the best of its respective series on NES and presaged the later Metroidvania style.

I think only younger people consider these betrayals, because they grew up in a time when sequels were pooped out cookie cutter level packs. We didn't expect those limitations back then, it was no big deal for a sequel to be very different.

 

[tsundoku]

why is mario 2 a betrayal? because of the poison mushrooms?

 

[jackal27]

All three are great. Simon's Quest is the best of its respective series on NES and presaged the later Metroidvania style.

Hello. Older person here who played the Castlevania games in order as a kid and Castlevania 2 is still one of the most frustrating and bafflingly designed games I've ever played. Castlevania 3 any day of the week.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

At the time you played these games, were you excited, enjoyed, and satisfied?

All of the above. Yes, it was obvious how different they were to their predecessors, but sequels back then weren't all just bigger, more polished refinements.

Looking back today - do you consider any of them classics? Do you consider any of them terrible? Which holds up the best today?

Classics. Each and every one. Simon's Quest was the most flawed of the set, but it was refreshing to play basic CV with a backtrackable, more satisfyingly explorable world that gave you more than just a one-way path to completion. Super Mario 2 holds up best, overall, but Adventure of Link is very playable and enjoyable to this day. I think, for the time on NES, these all presented greater value for the average player, given their added length, challenge, and options relative to the first games of their respective series. I appreciate them all for taking creative risks that would really rarely take place with today's relatively cookie-cutter expectations of sequels.

 

[shawnbuddy]

You missed the worst of the bunch: Metal Gear: Snake's Revenge. They took a top-down stealth adventure title and turned it into a side-scrolling action shooter.

No, it's only side-scrolling for short sections. Most of the game is pretty much like Metal Gear, with a bit more unfair difficulty.

 

[To Far Away Times]

Castlevania 2 is the best. Super Mario 2 is the worst.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I've only played SMB2, but it's absolutely a classic game.

 

[ghibli99]

I played all three of these much later in life (5-10 or so years ago), and while I didn't exactly love any of them to the point where I'd call them classics, I still liked them for different reasons. Simon's Quest in particular still has some of the best music out of the NES originals (those basslines), but has aged the worst IMO.

 

[jackal27]

All of the above. Yes, it was obvious how different they were to their predecessors, but sequels back then weren't all just bigger, more polished refinements.

Worth noting: we were kids. We were always just excited to have new games. If anything, our opinions are probably more skewed, but in the case Mario 2 especially, it felt sooooo fresh and cool. It was the first one I played, but I remember being so inpressed with its increased color palette and the added abilities and warp door stuff.

 

[Nosgotham]

all three are classics, especially castlevania 2.

 

[1upsuper]

It's funny because no one I knew growing up thought these were anything resembling "betrayals." My friends all liked them a lot and we never considered them anything other than key members of their respective franchises. And for the record, I still like them all.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

All 3 classics.

Zelda 2 / Castlevania 2 tied for best.

 

[border]

Zelda 2 and Mario 2 are among my favorites in their respective franchises. Simon's Quest is hot fucking garbage though. Kneel at the edge of a screen for thirty seconds until a tornado picks you up? Fuck outta here.

This puzzle solution was of course made infamous by the Angry Video Game Nerd. But was the rest of the game really like that? My recollection of Simon's Quest is pretty hazy at best. Mostly I just didn't care for all the backtracking and de-emphasis on platforming.

 

[G-Fex]

auto scrollers are shit. SMB3 really isn't that great

Learn to play Z2 and CV2 then you can appreciate them more.

 

[Waylon Drums]

You have to know what sequels to games actually were back then. We didn't know what we should expect from them. It made total sense that SMB2 was VERY different to me than SMB because...what else was a sequel supposed to be? Same for the other two. Obviously that has changed for better and worse depending on the situation.

 

[Anth0ny]

Zelda 2 best (one of the best games ever, possibly the best nes game)
Vania 2 worst (very meh)


Mario 2 is real good, worst of the 3 NES marios though

 

[Pyrrhus]

They were all pretty much loved at the time of their release. 1988 was a hell of a year for NES games, these titles included. Of them CV2 has probably aged the worst but at the time it was seen as a major step forward. Day/Night cycle, RPG elements, non-linear world, Bloody fucking Tears. It has its merits even now if you maintain the proper context.

You've got to remember that games weren't played solo back then. You had manuals and game magazines giving you the secrets that seem completely out of left field to somebody playing thirty years later with a ROM or bare cart and that was basically an expected part of the experience. Esoterica was considered fair game in terms of design back then.

In what universe is Mario 2 considered a bad game, though?

 

[KittenMaster]

Simon's Quest is the only bad one of the three, Mario 2 and Zelda 2 were anything but betrayals.

Dragon Quest 2 on the NES is also pretty awful because of its horrible balance issues.

DQ2 is actually really fun for its difficulty, I thought. It was a game where you needed to be smart and use status effects on enemies even in random battles. It's just the last dungeon with the final bosses where the game starts to fall apart.

 

[Lothar]

All 3 are of course classics, top 50 games of all time material, Castlevania 2 and Mario 2 were better than their predecessors and Zelda 2 was close behind.

They were also all beloved when they came out. Zelda 2 won game of the year by readers of Nintendo Power over the 1st Zelda. All 3 were highly ranked in NP's top 30 for years. Super Mario Bros 2 was ranked best NES game for 13 months. http://vgstats.blogspot.com/2008/01/nintendo-power-charts-nes-total-points.html

 

[1upsuper]

DQ2 is actually really fun for its difficulty, I thought. It was a game where you needed to be smart and use status effects on enemies even in random battles. It's just the last dungeon with the final bosses where the game starts to fall apart.

I love DQ 2. It's got some balance issues, but so does every other 8-bit JRPG. The open world is great and there's a lot going on in that world.

 

[modsbox]

why is mario 2 a betrayal? because of the poison mushrooms?

It's a betrayal because it's not a true sequel or even a mario game. Yes it started as a mario game during initial development, the concept being a vertically scrolling cooperative platformer (?). But then it got released in Japan on the FDS as Doki Doki Panic! only to be reskinned and released as Super Mario 2 in the US because Nintendo got feedback that the japanese version of Super Mario 2 was too difficult.

The 'it was all a dream' ending kind of proves that it was clearly a departure.

All that said, I love Super Mario 2. Great game. Just not at all like Super Mario 1 or 3.

 

[Carnby]

I'll choose Castlevania 2 because it's more fucking annoying than fun. At least the other two were fun.

 

[border]

They were all pretty much loved at the time of their release. 1988 was a hell of a year for NES games, these titles included. Of them CV2 has probably aged the worst but at the time it was seen as a major step forward. Day/Night cycle, RPG elements, non-linear world,

All of these kinda seemed like setbacks to me. The Day/Night cycle just randomly ramped up the difficulty at times when all you wanted to do was progress across the map to a particular area. So suddenly a leisurely journey across the countryside became an intense fight for your life against unrelenting odds.

A non-linear world without a map or guide was mostly an exercise in frustration.

RPG progression was based around a few items and not really an expansion of your character's abilities. If the game gave you new skills that let you access new areas and defeat enemies easier (as Metroid does), that would be cool. It doesn't feel like you get more powerful and agile and adaptable as the game progresses on.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Mario 2 and Zelda 2 are my favorites of their series, so I guess I'd have to go with Castlevania 2.

I feel like Zelda 2 is the game to most successfully capture the spirit of dangerous exploration that Miyamoto set out to create, and probably has the most satisfying and skill-based combat system. I also think it's the first Zelda game where Link really became an identifiable character instead of a little green overhead blob. It also arguably has the best music.

Mario 2 is the Mario that has the most personality and joy to it. Everyone always talks up SMB 3 and World on GAF, but they kind of bored me. After playing 2, they felt very by-the-numbers and formulaic. Mario 2 just wanted the player to have a great time.

 

[Lupin the Third]

It's a betrayal because it's not a true sequel or even a mario game. Yes it started as a mario game during initial development, the concept being a vertically scrolling cooperative platformer (?). But then it got released in Japan on the FDS as Doki Doki Panic! only to be reskinned and released as Super Mario 2 in the US because Nintendo got feedback that the japanese version of Super Mario 2 was too difficult.

The 'it was all a dream' ending kind of proves that it was clearly a departure.

All that said, I love Super Mario 2. Great game. Just not at all like Super Mario 1 or 3.

I think the poster was joking; denying the existence of the US game as "Super Mario 2" offhand instead of as, say, "Super Mario USA".

 

[Netherscourge]

I hated The Adventure of Link.

Those other two I played all the time.

Zelda 2 was a complete turnoff for me after Zelda 1.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

1) Zelda 2
2) Mario 2
3) Vania 2

Zelda 2 & Mario 2 USA are absolutely classics and both fantastic games.

Vania 2 is pretty bad as is, though it's a decently fun game with the bisqwit patch that retranslates the terrible english and adds some QOL improvements.
The real mario 2 is also pretty bad. It's almost just an expert level pack for mario 1, I think the only new things were the purple mushroom, palette swapped pirahna plants and the wind.

 

[Griss]

I remember being super excited for all three of these games as a kid, and my reaction to each of them being... "Huh?"

However I quickly grew to love Super Mario Bros 2. I have great memories of playing it with friends when it released. It was quirky and weird but still played a great 2d platforming game. It's a true classic to me now, from the visuals to the soundtrack.

Zelda II I could never get into. The first was my first ever game and my favourite game of all time for a decade, and still in contention. AoL was confusing and strange from the very start, and I never made it far, especially because of those awful dark caves. Having to find specific tiles on the map at random in order to progress was also a hard gate for child me. However I came to appreciate a lot of the amazing game design inventions it implemented as an adult, while still thinking it's a fairly mediocre game (although amazing by the poor standards of the NES).

Simon's Quest I just disliked, but I must confess I was never as much a fan of Castlevania as my friends - I always liked the idea of it more than playing it as a kid. It was always on TV, for some reason.

 

[Damaniel]

I don't understand the hate. All three games are good in their own right - in fact, I was playing Zelda 2 on my NES Classic just a few days ago. The only crime committed by these games was being different than their predecessors. Mario 2 is probably the weakest of the 3, but I enjoyed all of them growing up.

 

[bionic77]

I loved how different each game from the first in the series.

Wish more series took risks like that and also that gamers were more forgiving of companies taking chances.

 

[Cow Mengde]

What I want to know is why is Mario 2 on that list? The only reason it's so different is because it wasn't even a Mario game to begin with. That one is technically cheating.

Fire Emblem Gaiden had no story and really crappy map designs. That should replace Mario 2.

 

[KillScottKill]

Zelda II and SMB2 (USA) are actually good games that can stand on their own right, even if they're the weird ones in their franchises.

Simon's Quest is trash and it would be trash whether or not it had Castlevania on the label.

 

[shawnbuddy]

So suddenly a leisurely journey across the countryside became an intense fight for your life against unrelenting odds.

Reread what you just wrote here, because this sounds FUCKING AWESOME!

 

[Earthbound64]

All 3 of them are fantastic games.
Mario 2 is the best, but I love all of them.

 

[kamineko]

All of those games kick ass

It's actually Final Fantasy II

^^^