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[Clockwork5]

Keep pedalling that shit argument why don't you? I'm sure we understood the shitty point the million other times it was mentioned. Make all the excuses you want and go "Oh yeah, but what about THIS?", I'm sure your cynical "Everything sucks life is terrible" attitude will get you far.

That is not my attitude at all.

It's not really "But what about THIS?" when the entire hobby and the system which the OP will use to play games made by better companies is fueled by terrible working conditions.

I'm simply saying it's fun to pick and choose what you preach in order to make yourself feel better, isn't it?

 

[Deleted member 752119]

So you're just going to bypass all the really despicable shit and focus in on something made by highly educated, mid-to-high 5 figure to low-to-mid six figure guys in San Diego? Seems really weird to wake up one day and feel compelled to boycott something like U.S. video games (a small, $30 billion dollar industry) while buying electronics and clothing manufactured from China/Honduras/Sri Lanka/Bangladesh/etc., eating food processed by the industrial food complex, filling up your car with oil that was drilled in the oil sands or via earthquake-causing hydraulic fracturing, etc. etc.

I'm bypassing it as I dislike Rockstar games, so just playing devil's advocate.

That said, again it's better to have some lines/standards than none. Of course the more lines/standards, and on the more globally important issues, the better.

It's easier to draw lines on things totally frivolous like games where they're not needed at all and one has plenty to play even if they skip ones from developers/publishes with particularly gregarious histories of abusing their employees than something like a cellphone that's nearly a necessity in today's world and where one has no options to avoid sweatshops as they're all made that way. That said, one can still be conscientious and at least not upgrade phones until the have to as their current one no longer works vs. wastefully upgrading every year or two etc. Again, some lines are better than none and every little bit helps.

And again, I'm talking about individual practices, not preaching to others. I don't give two shits about preaching my buying preferences, environmental practices etc. to others. I live my life in a way that I can live with myself in peace. Don't give much of a shit about what others do to be frank, as long as it's not directly impacting me.

 

[Huevos de Oro]

An interesting point to further delve into is: how can consumers directly influence these studios in a positive way? Abstaining from buying their products serves as a way of showing your lack of support towards unhealthy practices, but it only works for you, and if enough people do it, then the business as a whole suffers, and the first ones to resent that are the people you want to help.

So what's left? Trying to contact your congressman, or local representative in order to raise awareness on the subject? Pushing for big specialized media outlets to do investigative reports on these kinds of practices?

 

[Stix_Remix]

Polygon: Rockstar is not your friend, and overworking employees is not healthy for gaming.

 

[Northeastmonk]

Maybe there should be a documentary to raise awareness. The one for Walmart worked because I'm married to someone who showed it to me and I don't shop there as often as I once did.

The thing is, I don't even know how these companies are structured. I normally look at "praise-articles" where the glory is about the founders versus the guy struggling to find bugs in a huge AAA project. I don't even know how their day to day life is like.

I got to see a little bit of one being built with all the Boss Key dev videos, but that isn't everything. Very interesting stuff, but I have no idea what it's like. I could probably do more research.

I'm a praise type of person. I want to give all the developers praise and thanks with my comments and money. I realize caring about where that dollar goes is important and for what it's really for is important.

But sitting at home, dealing with my own life issues, and then realizing I'm already spending money to play a game I'm already excited about is sometimes its own stressor. I plan my game time around work and family.

It's one thing I enjoy. If you're that talented then I can't offer any advice. Just a thank you and to tell you that I spend my hard earned money on your work.

 

[canedaddy]

I could see taking such a stance with items made via child labor or slavery, but employment that's voluntary? Nope.

 

[Freeman76]

People have choices. Yes its shit that they treat staff that way, but if they choose to work there they are effectively saying its ok. If everybody who works there thinks its unfair and did something about that, R* would have to improve the conditions.

Im not saying people deserve this treatment, but if they dont like it they should move on and not keep working at a place they hate, getting 'fat' or 'divorced', rather value their lives and choose to pursue a different career path/company to work for.

If they were forced to work there its another matter entirely, but seems they join of their own volition and not because someone is making them put up with these working conditions.

I respect your stance OP, and this is no black and white issue. Its just modern life is full of victims, who blame their failures on the world around them without taking control of their own life. Some of those quotes read very much like that, victim mentality. What this situation needs is for people to stand up for their rights, be counted and not stop until they are heard. Posting anonymously (largely) on a website about it isnt really doing anything to alleviate the problem.

There are people in the thread saying they dont support these working conditions (I CERTAINLY DO NOT SUPPORT THESE CONDITIONS BTW)and say "I will rent it" lol. Someone still had to buy it for you to be able to rent it, way to stick to your beliefs!!

 

[Clockwork5]

I could see taking such a stance with items made via child labor or slavery, but employment that's voluntary? Nope.

Items like your PS4, XBONE or GFX card?

 

[NormalFish]

That is not my attitude at all.

It's not really "But what about THIS?" when the entire hobby and the system which the OP will use to play games made by better companies is fueled by terrible working conditions.

I'm simply saying it's fun to pick and choose what you preach in order to make yourself feel better, isn't it?

Unless you completely go off the grid, grow your own food, build your own house, etc. you're going to have to "pick and choose". Every time you buy meat in the grocery store, you're contributing to immoral business practices. Every time you buy corn, soy products, and the vast majority of other vegetables and grains, you're contributing to immoral business practices. Every time you drive your car, you're contributing to immoral business practices. Every time you get your new data plan or pay your ISP for access to the internet, you're contributing to immoral business practices. Every time you buy clothes you're contributing to immoral business practices.

This is how capitalist economies work, because immoral business practices are almost always more efficient and thus more profitable, and thus become the only way to compete at scale.

You acting like you or others don't pick and choose, and therefore are some how more authentic or genuine is not only hilariously naive, but stupid, to boot.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

An interesting point to further delve into is: how can consumers directly influence these studios in a positive way? Abstaining from buying their products serves as a way of showing your lack of support towards unhealthy practices, but it only works for you, and if enough people do it, then the business as a whole suffers, and the first ones to resent that are the people you want to help.

So what's left? Trying to contact your congressman, or local representative in order to raise awareness on the subject? Pushing for big specialized media outlets to do investigative reports on these kinds of practices?

After the EA spouse debacle and other lesser known things, EA in LA is a notoriously better place to work at. Visibility matters.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

That's very fair, OP.

I've heard all types of shit fromy my colleagues. There are stories I would love to tell on GAF, the type of shit thats happened at studios over the past few decades would upset you all.

There needs to be a union now. Some of the work ethics would not swing in over industries.

I'd love to hear them stories

 

[Purple Cheeto]

If you won't support RDR you might as well not support any game because these problems exist from the tiniest mobile devs to the biggest AAA devs.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Are working conditions in other sectors in the US this bad, like for other software development outside of games for instance?

Is development crunch as bad a thing in other countries, like in Canada or mainland Europe? Like, here in the UK if you were treated this poorly I'm sure you could take it to an employment tribunal, but are there no general employee protections in the US?

 

[RSTEIN]

By your arguement, we should never complain about everything because the entire world has problems. Everything is awful, life is terrible, we're all gonna die anyway. Fuck life, right?

It doesn't strike you as odd? Hypocritical? Illogical? I'm not going to buy this thing (made by $50-$200k/yr employees with benefits, quality food, driving cars ,etc.) but I will buy that thing (made by the poorest of the poor/contributes to global warming/animal cruelty/etc)

It feels kind of lazy to me. You can boycott it because you can live without it. But you don't have the guts to boycott something that has a much bigger impact on global wealth inequality, global warming, human/animal rights violations because boycotting those things would impact the quality of your life.

 

[Icedburden]

Rockstart VP of Management GAF's account

lol I wish.

 

[NormalFish]

It doesn't strike you as odd? Hypocritical? Illogical? I'm not going to buy this thing (made by $50-$200k/yr employees with benefits, quality food, driving cars ,etc.) but I will buy that thing (made by the poorest of the poor/contributes to global warming/animal cruelty/etc)

It feels kind of lazy to me. You can boycott it because you can live without it. But you don't have the guts to boycott something that has a much bigger impact on global wealth inequality, global warming, human/animal rights violations because boycotting those things would impact the quality of your life.

But boycotting some smaller evil is still a net improvement over not boycotting anything. so why are you complaining?

 

[vypek]

Yeah...those are some awful reviews. Seeing Blizzard as one of the links on the page and seeing their ratings are day and night. Really unfortunate stuff; part of the reason I never wanted to get into game programming.

Are working conditions in other sectors in the US this bad, like for other software development outside of games for instance?

Is development crunch as bad a thing in other countries, like in Canada or mainland Europe? Like, here in the UK if you were treated this poorly I'm sure you could take it to an employment tribunal, but are there no general employee protections in the US?

Personally, as a software dev outside of the gaming industry, I don't have an experience like this at all. My 40 hours is 40 hours. I might do a few extra hours every now and then if I want to make sure I get something done but I never feel like my life is being strained.

 

[Clockwork5]

Unless you completely go off the grid, grow your own food, build your own house, etc. you're going to have to "pick and choose". Every time you buy meat in the grocery store, you're contributing to immoral business practices. Every time you buy corn, soy products, and the vast majority of other vegetables and grains, you're contributing to immoral business practices. Every time you drive your car, you're contributing to immoral business practices. Every time you get your new data plan or pay your ISP for access to the internet, you're contributing to immoral business practices. Every time you buy clothes you're contributing to immoral business practices.

This is how capitalist economies work, because immoral business practices are almost always more efficient and thus more profitable, and thus become the only way to compete at scale.

You acting like you or others don't pick and choose, and therefore are some how more authentic or genuine is not only hilariously naive, but stupid, to boot.

I do pick and choose who I use my voice to stick up for and it isn't the voluntary employees of R*. It's the children who produce all that stuff you take for granted.

If you knew me and where I choose to shop, what international charities I choose to support and what products I choose to buy, you would understand this better.

This is something that I choose to put effort into changing. And the hypocrisy and blind eyes in this thread are something I choose to call out when I see it.

It is sickening the amount of lives that are destroyed so that we can have nice things on the cheap. I realize it is largely inescapable at this point in time, but one can try.

A good first step is buying all electronics second hand.

 

[Stealthcobra]

So are you finished buying all aaa games? All of them do this

 

[Vimes]

I'm yet another SD area dev who personally knows some ex-RSD people. They have fuck all good to say about the place and will actively warn you away. Most of them are avoiding returning to AAA because of their experience there, and have settled for a lifetime in mobile.

Remember these are the people who responded to a comment about bad communications with the head office by making some oh-so-hilarious wallpapers. They didn't even issue a boilerplate statement that they respect their employees. They went out of their way to be seen publicly laughing at their own people.

 

[Icedburden]

I don't buy into this, at least not in San Diego. If the pay is already shit I find it hard to believe you couldn't float your resume around and eventually land a job elsewhere. I get that it may be difficult to get another job in the video game industry, but maybe it's time to consider leaving said industry temporarily until you get a job that doesn't make you miserable.

Well, you should buy into it because that's how the real world works, my friend.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

I once asked a friend if R* subsidised his rent since he was never at his flat.

Crunch is something that you have to be aware of and prepared for before you get into the industry. Yes, in an ideal world everything would go according to plan and to schedule, but in reality that is never the case.

That said, perpetual crunch is not healthy and dangerous. I know my health fairly obviously slipped when I was crunching for 1-2 months, so I can only imagine what it would do to me If it were for a few years! (Not to mention the social side of things)

Crunch should be avoided at all costs.

 

[Tain]

There needs to be a union now.

^^^^^

 

[sneas78]

It's a thin line .. and everyone does it.. company to Employees.. and employees to the company.. I see it on both sides. Not everywhere.. but in the 2 big company's I work/d for ... yeah. Example: Manager mandatory overtime: employee not doing a damn thing all day. Cycle goes round and round.
This article is an it different from my examples. As the employees where I'm at .. it's more of show up .. no standards.

 

[Makonero]

Again, I implore those that know people who have direct experience to actually encourage those people to talk to journalists. Jason Scheier has done a lot of interviews with people and posted some very in depth articles about crunch and he's writing a book about game delays. Get these people in touch with someone who can really spread the news. If Rockstar is so much worse than other AAA games than this is a real scoop and like the EA Wife blog, you can actually create change if you do something other than boycott a game that costs Rockstar $60 max profit.

 

[Fisty]

I'm yet another SD area dev who personally knows some ex-RSD people. They have fuck all good to say about the place and will actively warn you away. Most of them are avoiding returning to AAA because of their experience there, and have settled for a lifetime in mobile.

Well at least they might get some profit sharing in the mobile sector. I doubt Rockstar gives employees more than a salary and perks like catered food etc

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

I could see taking such a stance with items made via child labor or slavery, but employment that's voluntary? Nope.

Do workers rights not matter or something? This is less of a gaming issue and more about a wider stance on workers rights, and frankly if you define terrible working conditions I hope you don't personally end up in one.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

Are working conditions in other sectors in the US this bad, like for other software development outside of games for instance?

Is development crunch as bad a thing in other countries, like in Canada or mainland Europe? Like, here in the UK if you were treated this poorly I'm sure you could take it to an employment tribunal, but are there no general employee protections in the US?

From what I've gathered/heard from friends who work in the industry, no a lot of other software development work isn't as bad as game development. Deadlines aren't as tight, employees are more a luxury as there's not as much demand as their is in the game industry where you have legions of gamers dreaming of working in the industry etc.

As I said before, that's a problem with "hobby industries" like gaming, film etc. as you have tons of people lining up for every job as they want to work in their hobby--that makes it a lot easier to treat your workers as disposable as they essentially are since so many people think it will be their dream job to work in their hobby that you have a revolving door of new applicants.

I can't speak to how it is in game development in other countries though.

 

[SciencePilot]

A silent boycott is meaningless. You have to send a message. This thread is a good start, but you have to start communicating to Rockstar directly in order to make an impact.

 

[RSTEIN]

But boycotting some smaller evil is still a net improvement over not boycotting anything. so why are you complaining?

Yes, you're right, removing a pebble from a mountain is an improvement. I just wish we all had the courage to actually move the mountain (myself included).

 

[Stevey]

Yeah, it's best not to believe everything you read on the internet.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I'm gonna be vague as to not out anyone.
I worked at the same place as the wife of someone who is, or was, a dev at Rockstar San Diego.

I heard somewhat disturbing stories pretty frequently regarding the devolopment of Red Dead Redemption. Nothing insane or criminal, just stories of pretty harsh/stressful work environments.

I would ask "why does he stay there" and she would only say "it's hard to explain."

 

[GermanZepp]

OP , do you apply this "rule/method" for all the products you buy, or just games?

 

[Vermillion]

sure it is, if you hate the job so much find another job, these people are not in low skill minimum wage jobs

The variations of this have caused me to realize that perhaps gaffers either don't have jobs or have amazing safety nets.

 

[Clockwork5]

OP , do you apply this "rule/method" for all the products you buy, or just games?

Apparently just RDR2.

And apparently, that's okay.

 

[Acerac]

You don't make it to the top without making a few enemies 😂

It is disconcerting when the enemies a company is making are mostly comprised of their own ex-employees.

 

[Simply Sami]

Did the op post that on their Apple phone? I bet you have a PS4 or Xbox. Shall I tell you how the working conditions are for the Chinese people who manufacture them?

People need to get off their high horses.

 

[Feep]

I respect the OP and anyone who actively seeks to make a change based on changing their spending habits to encourage more ethical business practices.

Fuck this what-about-ism bullshit in this thread. Just admit you want the game. It's fine. There *are* bigger ways to make an impact, and if you do those and justify RDR2 to yourself, great. But don't shit on people trying to do something good, just because it's "not good enough".

Edit: i.e. the post directly above mine. Get off *yours*, dude.

 

[Fisty]

Apparently just RDR2.

And apparently, that's okay.

Tell us, what exactly should OP do to be a good person? How do we ascend to the moral precipice that you have managed to climb to?

 

[Vimes]

Again, I implore those that know people who have direct experience to actually encourage those people to talk to journalists. Jason Scheier has done a lot of interviews with people and posted some very in depth articles about crunch and he's writing a book about game delays. Get these people in touch with someone who can really spread the news. If Rockstar is so much worse than other AAA games than this is a real scoop and like the EA Wife blog, you can actually create change if you do something other than boycott a game that costs Rockstar $60 max profit.

The scoops are already out there and have been covered. The article I posted earlier was rockstar's reaction to a literal Rockstar Spouse blog. Rockstar being shitty to its employees is the definition of public knowledge.

Buy the game, or don't. (Personally I don't believe voting with your wallet works for AAA games.) But don't pretend the receipts about Rockstar aren't out there.

The variations of this have caused me to realize that perhaps gaffers either don't have jobs or have amazing safety nets.

Seriously, this and the goddamn avocado thread...

 

[KillLaCam]

I could see taking such a stance with items made via child labor or slavery, but employment that's voluntary? Nope.

Yep. These are also people with high level skills. They can generally get other jobs easily.

I do want them to have better work conditions but I'd want most ppl to have better working conditions.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

That sucks if you didn't know what you were letting yourself in for, however, if you know what taking up that position is likely to entail then you're doing it by choice.

If people don't want to work in that environment, they'll leave to pastures anew, and that will continue to happen until the company can no longer sustain those working practices, or, it will continue chugging along if it can find people.

My job requires me to be away from family and friends and sometimes live in shit environments for more than half the year, probably a 70:30 split nowadays, and it sucks, but it's a choice that I've taken. When I'm no longer happy with it I'll make the choice to change to something else, just like those people at R*.

 

[John Kowalski]

Did the op post that on their Apple phone? I bet you have a PS4 or Xbox. Shall I tell you how the working conditions are for the Chinese people who manufacture them?

People need to get off their high horses.

You're on a pretty high horse yourself, going off and inventing your own story about the OP.

Peeps need to check themselves.

 

[Spyderist]

I eat meat, I use a smartphone.


If there was a way to get cheap games which all these AAA games are even with DLC--cheap, with a unionised workforce, I feel like one developer would've went for it to get top grade talent.

 

[Stealthcobra]

Well, you should buy into it because that's how the real world works, my friend.

I work for the government, make 106k a year and i fucking hate my job... I agree with you

 

[Demoskinos]

I hate hearing stories like this, especially when the end product turns out well. We don't appreciate the sacrifices many of these devs make to give us just a few hours of entertainment.

That being said, not buying the product and supporting the devs who *did* stick it out through all of that mess would be even more of a bummer, IMO.

Exactly. Because not only did they just slave away now they are going to get fired because they didn't meet whatever internal sales metrics were put in front of them.

I think crunch and employee treatment needs to be addressed in the industry but I'm not sure this is the way to do it. Granted, at the same time I don't have any other suggestions on how to tackle it either. =\

 

[Simply Sami]

I respect the OP and anyone who actively seeks to make a change based on changing their spending habits to encourage more ethical business practices.

Fuck this what-about-ism bullshit in this thread. Just admit you want the game. It's fine. There *are* bigger ways to make an impact, and if you do those and justify RDR2 to yourself, great. But don't shit on people trying to do something good, just because it's "not good enough".

Edit: i.e. the post directly above mine. Get off *yours*, dude.

Why should I get off mine? If he's going to be consistent in his criticism of working environment then he shouldn't support other products. Those chinese factories are miles worse than what Rockstar San Diego does. Atleast they can leave reviews. Why hasn't the OP said he's not going to support Sony no more etc.

Then maybe he should look at where his clothes and shoes come from. I'm sure the people or kids in those factories are treated great too...

 

[StereoVsn]

The variations of this have caused me to realize that perhaps gaffers either don't have jobs or have amazing safety nets.

Well, if we are talking skilled game software developers, it's likely they could find a job in software dev outside game dev with Rockstar on their resume. However, most likely they have something akin to Stockholm syndrome and also want to stay in that game dev field.

Plus, if they don't necessarily want to move from San Diego, which is a great place to live overall if you can afford the rent, there probably are not many game development firms if they do want to stay in the industry.

Why should I get off mine? If he's going to be consistent in his criticism of working environment then he shouldn't support other products. Those chinese factories are miles worse than what Rockstar San Diego does. Atleast they can leave reviews. Why hasn't the OP said he's not going to support Sony no more etc.

Then maybe he should look at where his clothes and shoes come from. I'm sure the people or kids in those factories are treated great too...

There is literally no good alternatives if you want a decent smartphone, TV, tablet, etc... other then buying something built in China or South Korea. It's not an option for vast majority of people not to own a phone, TV, computer, etc... It's certainly an option not to purchase a video game.

Conversations around Walmart, etc... are also tougher because most people live on a budget and if they have to double their grocery bills or other items so they don't shop in big box stores, it's also very very tough. Simply put, luxury items (like video games) are the easiest thing to be choosy about since there are so many entertainment options out there.

 

[Vermillion]

I also want to add that Glassdoor reviews can be reasonably accurate with a large enough volume. I would recommend that anyone looking for a job pays some attention to what is common between reviews (at the bare minimum). Lest you end up working at an awful place.

Finally, others in this thread have corroborated the idea that R* is not only a terrible environment, but terrible even among other AAA devs. You can still buy the game, of course... Just don't be disingenuous about reality.

Most of us use Amazon despite understanding that the working conditions for many there are garbage. But we at least admit that instead of trying to pretend that's not the case.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

OP , do you apply this "rule/method" for all the products you buy, or just games?

One should try to apply it to everything of course if they really want to make a difference.

That said, completely luxury purchases like games and other entertainment are the easiest targets as we can all live without them where as many other things that are more necessities (like phones) are hard to skip and often have few or no options that don't suck in terms of avoiding good produced under poor working conditions.

In those cases people should still be conscientious and not upgrade more than often, drive as fuel-efficient a car as they can and minimize mileage as much as possible and so on of course. But it's the pure luxury purchases that show whether someone really cares or not as those are where we have full flexibility with our money as we can truly do without and skip things that are particularly offensive in how they were produced with no ill effects beyond not experiencing that media.

The variations of this have caused me to realize that perhaps gaffers either don't have jobs or have amazing safety nets.

To be fair, I don't think most are saying to quit immediately vs. pursue other options and find something better (however long that takes) before leaving.

That said, that is naive and ignores that many people are stuck in certain places due to their family, their spouses career, not wanting to move kids across the country/world etc. if they're in a location with limited jobs in their field. So while it is relatively easy for say programmers to find other jobs (if they're willing to get out of gaming), it's still not as simple as many seem to think for sure.