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When the Left Turns on Its Own (NYT Opinion)

I don't get it, there is a yearly event of black people at campus that can stay home and play video games. Now, the professor says to switch it up this year with white people stay home to play video games so black people can experience the strange emptiness that people of other colors have experienced in the past since 1970. And the white students are mad because they don't want a free day to spend playing games, or is it the black students that wanted to stay home and play video games?

I am so confused.
 

Simplet

Member
This video was fucking scary, it was seriously hard to watch.

Power dynamics in the US seem completely out of whack, it looks like there is some kind of victimization olympics, where you have to be as emotional as you possibly can during any and every discussion, to get as many people as you can to see the particular form of oppression you're suffering from and using this to gain power over others.

You seem to see it on every side of any (political) debate, mixed with identity politics where if you're not a "real american" or a member of some kind of social group you can't possibly understand the plight of others. And it is somehow compounded by the strange apparent religiosity of it all, you can almost hear some of these students scream "Alleluia!" After one of them stops speaking.
 
I don't get it, there is a yearly event of black people at campus that can stay home and play video games. Now, the professor says to switch it up this year with white people stay home to play video games so black people can experience the strange emptiness that people of other colors have experienced in the past since 1970. And the white students are mad because they don't want a free day to spend playing games, or is it the black students that wanted to stay home and play video games?

I am so confused.

You are not this stupid.

This video was fucking scary, it was seriously hard to watch.

Power dynamics in the US seem completely out of whack, it looks like there is some kind of victimization olympics, where you have to be as emotional as you possibly can during any and every discussion, to get as many people as you can to see the particular form of oppression you're suffering from and using this to gain power over others.

You seem to see it on every side of any (political) debate, mixed with identity politics where if you're not a "real american" or a member of some kind of social group you can't possibly understand the plight of others. And it is somehow compounded by the strange apparent religiosity of it all, you can almost hear some of these students scream "Alleluia!" After one of them stops speaking.

There is a weird need to stand firmly planted on whatever polarizing side indoctrinated you first. Making everything a qualifier for being a victim has made people feel comfortable throwing a fit about anything they might not like. We're regressing into 6ft children.
 
Not being casually racist or sexist is a very new thing, relatively speaking. It's not always clear what belongs in this collumn and what doesn't. Just because this brand new culture gets it wrong sometimes, has mis steps, doesn't mean it proves the whole cause and idea is wrong like some are trying to imply.

These kids, imo, are wrong. But not what they stand for. What they stand for is still 100% correct. The sky isn't falling and the left isn't perfect.
 
I don't get it, there is a yearly event of black people at campus that can stay home and play video games. Now, the professor says to switch it up this year with white people stay home to play video games so black people can experience the strange emptiness that people of other colors have experienced in the past since 1970. And the white students are mad because they don't want a free day to spend playing games, or is it the black students that wanted to stay home and play video games?

I am so confused.

*PoC group as an absence day where some choose to not attend school every year.
*This year the PoC group wanted White people to not attend school.
*Professor didn't feel like PoC group should tell Whites to not attend school
*Protestors called the Professor Racist/wanted him fired. (Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1agIlLlhg)
*Professor was told by police they could not protect him on campus because president told police to stand down.
*Professor taught class at a local park off of campus grounds.
 

Tagg9

Member
I don't get it, there is a yearly event of black people at campus that can stay home and play video games. Now, the professor says to switch it up this year with white people stay home to play video games so black people can experience the strange emptiness that people of other colors have experienced in the past since 1970. And the white students are mad because they don't want a free day to spend playing games, or is it the black students that wanted to stay home and play video games?

I am so confused.

This is the vital quote for you:
“There is a huge difference between a group or coalition deciding to voluntarily absent themselves from a shared space in order to highlight their vital and under-appreciated roles,” he wrote, “and a group or coalition encouraging another group to go away.”
 
I absolutely loved in that video, when they were screaming at the lady at the podium to 'Answer their Question' as she starts to answer, they interrupt her and scream at her again. The President looked like a deer in headlights, might as well just give the keys to these people and let them run that school.
 
Just like the other thread, this is a very one-sided article that doesn't go into the background context at all.

You guys should read this article. It presents another side of the story, with exerts from emails suggesting the professor is a typical "progressive", i.e. not when it actually starts to affect him. While we don't have the full emails, his objections to equity proposals at the university are very familiar. He says the push for equity at the university is bad, because of free speech and reverse racism. The vote for the equity proposals was almost unanimous, because some people told him they voted, or did not attend the meeting, 'out of fear' and felt they couldn't express 'non-conventional' opinions.

If you put aside the rose-tinted glasses that the label 'progressive' provides, this sounds just like typical conservative rhetoric.
 

Simplet

Member
Just like the other thread, this is a very one-sided article that doesn't go into the background context at all.

You guys should read this article. It presents another side of the story, with exerts from emails suggesting the professor is a typical "progressive", i.e. not when it actually starts to affect him. While we don't have the full emails, his objections to equity proposals at the university are very familiar. He says the push for equity at the university is bad, because of free speech and reverse racism. The vote for the equity proposals was almost unanimous, because some people told him they voted, or did not attend the meeting, 'out of fear' and felt they couldn't express 'non-conventional' opinions.

If you put aside the rose-tinted glasses that the label 'progressive' provides, this sounds just like typical conservative rhetoric.

Noone really cares whether the guy is a "real" progressive or not. Most people in this thread are disturbed by the weird video where a few dozens student are screaming at him at the top of their lungs while policing the way he places his arms around his body. It has nothing to do with whether the guy is progressive or not.

Edit: also, I couldn't read more than a few lines of the link you posted, it is really weirdly written and three/four paragraphs in I'm drowning in mixed metaphors about canoes and trains that are not helping me understand the present situation at all.
 

Apt101

Member
I think the professor has a good point, and on a university discourse should be way, waaaaaaaay more civil than that. And it's often said about the youth of today but god damn are they going to have a rough time dealing with the frictions of reality once they leave that campus.
 

AoM

Member
Just like the other thread, this is a very one-sided article that doesn't go into the background context at all.

You guys should read this article. It presents another side of the story, with exerts from emails suggesting the professor is a typical "progressive", i.e. not when it actually starts to affect him. While we don't have the full emails, his objections to equity proposals at the university are very familiar. He says the push for equity at the university is bad, because of free speech and reverse racism. The vote for the equity proposals was almost unanimous, because some people told him they voted, or did not attend the meeting, 'out of fear' and felt they couldn't express 'non-conventional' opinions.

If you put aside the rose-tinted glasses that the label 'progressive' provides, this sounds just like typical conservative rhetoric.
When the equity council, advising on behalf of the POC community at Evergreen, are telling professors and staff that we need mandatory training and accountability and the response is complaints that it is unfair to white people at the school this showcases exactly why this type of training is needed. This blatant ignorance of white privilege, show of white fragility and refusal to acknowledge how white supremacy affects people of color at Evergreen is white privilege in action. The white fragility illustrated by Weinstein and the other faculty and staff he claims support him are a way of derailing progress toward equity.
Yeesh.
 
Stupid ass college kid dipshits. It's a real problem - not wanting to even be exposed to, let alone engage in a civil manner, an opposing point of view on the confines of a college campus. The attitude is dangerous.

Edit: haven't sifted through every post, but has anybody heard the recent Joe rogan with him on it?
 
Edit: also, I couldn't read more than a few lines of the link you posted, it is really weirdly written and three/four paragraphs in I'm drowning in mixed metaphors about canoes and trains that are not helping me understand the present situation at all.

The author was intermixing pieces of Weinstein's email into her story, it was kind of difficult to separate the two.
 
Noone really cares whether the guy is a "real" progressive or not. Most people in this thread are disturbed by the weird video where a few dozens student are screaming at him at the top of their lungs while policing the way he places his arms around his body. It has nothing to do with whether the guy is progressive or not.

Edit: also, I couldn't read more than a few lines of the link you posted, it is really weirdly written and three/four paragraphs in I'm drowning in mixed metaphors about canoes and trains that are not helping me understand the present situation at all.

The article is about the left turning on itself. It has everything to do with whether the views of the professor are socially conservative or progressive. If they are the former, then the left isn't turning on itself at all in this instance, because the professor isn't actually on the left with respect to racial issues.
 
The article is about the left turning on itself. It has everything to do with whether the views of the professor are socially conservative or progressive. If they are the former, then the left isn't turning on itself at all in this instance, because the professor isn't actually on the left with respect to racial issues.

Nothing this guy says undermines the left. It undermines the radical left. He doesn't need to be extreme to be a Democrat.
 
This is an all-around disappointing situation. Things shouldn't have to be like this. The professor presented his opinion in a calm and well-reasoned way. Any response to it should also be respectful and well-reasoned. We shouldn't see calls for firing and concerns over his personal safety. We don't need mob confrontations, or even protests. A counter newspaper article or a one-on-one debate would be far more appropriate.

When you see claims that the left is turning on its own, that's what they mean. It's totally fine to have disagreements over the nuances of issues, and to debate about that. But it needs to be done in a constructive way, not a destructive one. This situation is a prime example of a destructive way.
 
I don't see this as a case of the left turning on its own as much as it is commentary on race dynamics. Minorities don't like to be lectured by white people, whether they are left or right, is that reality.

If this piece had been written by a respected black professor, I think the students might've been more receptive. Every model of belief, and system of thought, is going to break down and be used incorrectly, from time to time. The question is, are the people just using the system wrongly, or is the system itself wrong?

There is nothing wrong with PC culture or being leftwing, this is just an incorrect application of those sentiments, that is all.
 

Yeoman

Member
I don't see this as a case of the left turning on its own as much as it is commentary on race dynamics. Minorities don't like to be lectured by white people, whether they are left or right, is that reality.

If this piece had been written by a respected black professor, I think the students might've been more receptive. Every model of belief, and system of thought, is going to break down and be used incorrectly, from time to time. The question is, are the people just using the system wrongly, or is the system itself wrong?

There is nothing wrong with PC culture or being leftwing, this is just an incorrect application of those sentiments, that is all.
Have you watched the videos?
I've never seen anything like this in my entire life.
Berating the President of the college and ordering him not to make hand gestures, demanding that he buy them food, apparently he wasn't even allowed to go to the toilet by himself. All while they're cursing and swearing at him.
The mob then ordered that the college police force be disbanded.
At one point I heard someone ask "are there any black people that need water?".
This stuff is absolutely insane.

Apparently they also held a seminar on how "Asians are part of the problem".
 

Kinyou

Member

Seventy70

Member
I don't see this as a case of the left turning on its own as much as it is commentary on race dynamics. Minorities don't like to be lectured by white people, whether they are left or right, is that reality.

If this piece had been written by a respected black professor, I think the students might've been more receptive. Every model of belief, and system of thought, is going to break down and be used incorrectly, from time to time. The question is, are the people just using the system wrongly, or is the system itself wrong?

There is nothing wrong with PC culture or being leftwing, this is just an incorrect application of those sentiments, that is all.

Nah, I think this is mostly delinquent college kids being delinquent college kids.
 

2MF

Member
This is the shit the left has got to get under control. Racial segregation? WTF is goin on.

Yeah, this is bizarro progressivism... There are student unions literally demanding segregated housing:

WE DEMAND the creation and financial support of a CSLA housing space delegated for Black students and a full time Resident Director who can cater to the needs of Black students. Many Black CSLA students cannot afford to live in Alhambra or the surrounding area with the high prices of rent. A CSLA housing space delegated for Black students would provide a cheaper alternative housing solution for Black students. This space would also serve as a safe space for Black CSLA students to congregate, connect, and learn from each other.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Why can we weed out the bad eggs on both extremes, but so called moderates believe anything they hear?
Uh, I don't think most people can weed out bad eggs. Hence a dumb comic becomes "emblematic of the so-called tolerant left!" to the right and vice versa.
 
Feel bad for most of the Evergreen students, their diplomas just got worth a lot less - not that it was really worth that much before - as employers will view with a bit of skepticism anyone with a degree from there now if this is the kind of faculty, administration, and students they have. The yelp reviews are kind of funny though, ignoring the 1 stars posted in the last two weeks even older (6+ months) reviews mention the constant smell of weed, students showing up to class barefoot, professors who have zero published papers, etc.

Also will be negative blowback to students not graduating this year. After all the Mizzou protests two years ago, enrollment dropped dramatically there and its down 35% now from two years ago, with subsequent cuts to budgets and the like. At a time when college enrollment is at an all time high.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_b7417bf6-268e-58c4-b358-ac369c4481fc.html
 
Bret Weinstein's done close to 5 hours of interviews in the past week between Rubin and Rogan. If you want to know what he believes it's easy to find out. In the Rogan one (I think), he discusses how programs work at Evergreen and why he opposes the equity push among many other things. It's all pretty interesting.
 
I read about this the other day, so so freaking stupid. The professor just wanted to do his job as an educator and these nutjobs just had to ruin his day, making themselves and their campus look like a gigantic joke.
 
Republicans control the House, Senate, and Executive branch. That's with a party that doesn't know what it wants to be. There are Republicans reminiscent of 20 years ago that were quite socially progressive and there are Republicans that are ass-fucking backwards. And yet, these divided, dickhead motherfuckers are running shit right now. What's that say about the left?
The Republicans aren't doing anything special or difficult. Their support is due to race and white supremacy, that's the path of least resistance in this country.
 

Dyle

Member
Yeah, this is bizarro progressivism... There are student unions literally demanding segregated housing:

Fuck off with this garbage, calling this "segregated housing" is worse than the fools who say that Berkeley et alia are "censoring" Milo by not allowing him to speak there. It's a completely incorrect usage of words that have very specific meaning, which when applied like this, manage to turn marginalized students asking to feel safe in their homes into the oppressors. Segregation and censorship are very specific terms that refer to regulatory action decreed by governing bodies, in this case university administrations. What the student group you've quoted is asking for is not segregation, but is effectively integration through the creation of a safe community in which minority students can live, on campus, free from harm. What they are asking for is literally no different than rent control programs or women-only dorms, except that what unifies the residents would be race rather than economic class or gender. Why shouldn't a university, an institution explicitly organized to invest in young people and make them better, reach out to marginalized groups within their student body and give them the tools they need to succeed? There's certainly room for discussion about whether making such campus living arrangements based on race is effective or whether it would be better to focus on economically disadvantaged students of all kinds. But calling a demand for help "segregation" is not only linguistically incorrect, but is irresponsible and disrespectful to marginalized groups who already have enough discrimination and hatred to deal with.

If the American progressive movement is to survive and make real change, it needs to stop this stupid infighting and recognize the important of intersectional negotiation. We all have different needs and have different perspectives on how to act on those, but as long as we continue to demonize people who should be our allies and refuse to recognize that deep down we have the same ideas on how to move forward and fight for racial, social, and economic justice, nothing will be achieved. This goes for everyone, Bernie or Busters, screaming Evergreen students alike.
 

Chumly

Member
I was wondering when this was going to pop back up. After the last threads got locked due to the significant alt right bullshit being spread. The professor has managed to spread quite a misinformation campaign.
 

Kinyou

Member
I was wondering when this was going to pop back up. After the last threads got locked due to the significant alt right bullshit being spread. The professor has managed to spread quite a misinformation campaign.
What kind of misinformation exactly? That his letter doesn't warrant such an aggressive reaction seems pretty clear to me.
 

Chumly

Member
What kind of misinformation exactly? That his letter doesn't warrant such an aggressive reaction seems pretty clear to me.
First of all. They voluntarily requested that people switch places and white people go off campus. The professor deliberately mischaracterized it painting them as racists. That coupled with the fact that he was anti equality measures ignited a firestorm on campus. Did students overact? Absolutely. Personally I think that a professor should be more mature than the students.

There's a reason why faculty are supporting the students. Him rallying the alt right against the students is fucking abhorrent. Just because he claims to be a Bernie person doesn't make him right.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
I was wondering when this was going to pop back up. After the last threads got locked due to the significant alt right bullshit being spread. The professor has managed to spread quite a misinformation campaign.

The Alt Right can only dream of harming working class solidarity the way that pampered upper middle class college students do.
 
Well, isn't the point of this liberal direction the renouncing of group cohesion in favour of individual merit? So in that sense people are not turning on their own (or, conversely, working towards a collective good), but more so affecting the merit of the individual rather than shedding him from their own group (and indeed it seems to me that the accusations are done in such a way that suggest the offender has revealed himself part of a another group of people, almost as though belonging to a group were the offence itself).

At least that's my layman's interpretation of what's going on.


I'd say that this is not what is happening. Older progressive doctrine was more about that the idea that at the end of the day, common sense, inclusion justice will prevail in a open ended society. The collection of good ideas will superseed the bigotry, and for that reason we accept existence and expression of harmful groups.
That is why most cities across the world allow the existence of neo-nazi groups having sanctioned demonstrations in the name of hate.
It's the idea that small clusters of hate will not be able to penetrate a society, and as long as there is not a open escalation of violence, the existence of hate is permitted.
In the last couple of decades, that rhetoric has changed, and recently amplified with the emboldment of the right. The new rhetoric is now: the left is right, and we cannot any longer coexist with the right. Their ideas are not worth having and there is no compromise.
When someones ideas are not worth having, there is no incentive to listen or accept them. Everyone of them is part of a threatening hole. Hench the fetishization of being liberal being a sign of virtue or smiley sticky.

The change towards a more regressive path towards liberal values is understandable given how much hate the right harbors, but what is being lost (on the younger generation) is the idea that human beings cannot even agree on basic fundamentals about the values of life, punishment, birth, death.
They are creating a stallmate because they increasingly believe everything is black and white. If you like something or you have nuanced views that don't correlate unanimously with the lefts talking point you are co-signing on hate, part of the normalization of white supremacy or whatever other blanket term you want to apply.



When you are so caught up your own ass that you are right, and that you want to be understood before you want to understand others, you're not thinking about it deeply enough.
Everything you feel, people on the "other side" feel just as strongly. These polarizing opinions will not cancel each other out, nor will they go away.
If you have enough mental fortitude to look into the factors which accentuates hate, you'll see it's a lot of the same close mindedness.

Being progressive was about winning and overcoming stupidity through the capitalistic forum of good ideas. the idiots ruin their areas and causes, and the progressives win by example. Not by becoming this warped mirror image of the right whose main defense often seems to pathetically be reduced to "but they are worse" or "they started it".

Being progressive is not easy and can feel like a restrained idealism. You cannot have a free society if you at the same time want to have open season misguided fools, and that's what *we're* doing.

There are countless utter hypocritical fucking scumbags on the left. People whose ignorance and greed and hate is a total match for that on the right. That the left is infinitrally better than the right in the current configuration is not a good argument for betraying the values. It just makes the left seem more hypocritical. It doesn't want to practice what it preaches.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I was wondering when this was going to pop back up. After the last threads got locked due to the significant alt right bullshit being spread. The professor has managed to spread quite a misinformation campaign.

My understanding (from reading his letter) is that the difference is this:

1. A group (PoC) will voluntarily stay home of our own volition
2. A group (PoC) is asking B group (white people) to stay home so they can see what it feels like

Is that right?

I'm a little unclear but hoping to understand.
 

TTOOLL

Member
My understanding (from reading his letter) is that the difference is this:

1. A group (PoC) will voluntarily stay home of our own volition
2. A group (PoC) is asking B group (white people) to stay home so they can see what it feels like

Is that right?

I'm a little unclear but hoping to understand.

That's it. But they were not asking, they demanded it.
 

Chumly

Member
He's been clear in interviews that it was voluntary.
That's not how it started out

My understanding (from reading his letter) is that the difference is this:

1. A group (PoC) will voluntarily stay home of our own volition
2. A group (PoC) is asking B group (white people) to stay home so they can see what it feels like

Is that right?

I'm a little unclear but hoping to understand.
The school has actual activities planned on campus and off campus for the event. The students were requesting to switch places. This isn't just staying home.
 

Kinyou

Member
First of all. They voluntarily requested that people switch places and white people go off campus. The professor deliberately mischaracterized it painting them as racists. That coupled with the fact that he was anti equality measures ignited a firestorm on campus. Did students overact? Absolutely. Personally I think that a professor should be more mature than the students.

There's a reason why faculty are supporting the students. Him rallying the alt right against the students is fucking abhorrent. Just because he claims to be a Bernie person doesn't make him right.
I never saw him argue that people were forbidden, just that there's a difference between deciding yourself that you want to stay away and someone else asking you to stay away.

How exactly is the professor not more mature than the students? He always seems very calm. Also how exactly is he rallying the alt right? People are threatening his job, is he not allowed to defend himself?
The students over the top protests are what's rallying the alt right. Of course they'll jump on an easy mark like that.
 
My understanding (from reading his letter) is that the difference is this:

1. A group (PoC) will voluntarily stay home of our own volition
2. A group (PoC) is asking B group (white people) to stay home so they can see what it feels like

Is that right?

I'm a little unclear but hoping to understand.
B group was asked to stay home or go to an off-campus diversity meeting. I'm not actually sure if they wanted white people off-campus or just to not participate in the on-campus poc meeting.
 

Tater Tot

"My God... it's full of Starch!"
First of all. They voluntarily requested that people switch places and white people go off campus. The professor deliberately mischaracterized it painting them as racists. That coupled with the fact that he was anti equality measures ignited a firestorm on campus. Did students overact? Absolutely. Personally I think that a professor should be more mature than the students.

There's a reason why faculty are supporting the students. Him rallying the alt right against the students is fucking abhorrent. Just because he claims to be a Bernie person doesn't make him right.

There is a difference between voluntarily leaving campus and being forced to leave a campus. (Or banned for a day)

Day of Absence is built around a play by Douglas Turner Ward where in a fictional town the black population decides to not show up one day to emphasize their roles in the town that the white population is unaware of.

The standing tradition was that the black students and later students of color typically leave campuses voluntarily.

Whereas this year it was announced by the organizing committee where they asked white students and faculty to not come to the school.

A population absenting another population from a shared space is unacceptable. Asking people to not show up simply based on the color of their skin is unacceptable.

So his position was to continue going to teach that day, whereas he still could claim to be a minority since he is Jewish.
 
Segregation and censorship are very specific terms that refer to regulatory action decreed by governing bodies, in this case university administrations. What the student group you've quoted is asking for is not segregation, but is effectively integration through the creation of a safe community in which minority students can live, on campus, free from harm.

What would you call it if a group of white students asked for whites only housing? If they are not a part of the university administration, then you can't call it segregation.
 

sphagnum

Banned
What would you call it if a group of white students asked for whites only housing? If they are not a part of the university administration, then you can't call it segregation.

I don't like the idea of students separating themselves by race, but the difference here is that white students have societal privilege that black students don't and that carries over into the school environment as well.
 

Yeoman

Member
How so? In the letter he said encouraging and not forcing implying it was voluntary. He just believed there was a kind of unspoken threat behind it.
The kicker is that they asked "white allies" to stay at home. The implication being that if you didn't then you weren't an ally. Which means being stalked across campus and being held hostage.

As for the fact that the administration are siding with the students, this is the same administration that had students screaming at them saying that they wanted to be excused from coursework deadlines whilst protesting, and that the President should buy them "pot-luck" and "Gumbo" to eat next time - which he agreed he would do.

This is the first time I have ever seen something like this, I've heard it used as a talking point for years and I never bought that it was a real thing. I've changed my mind today: this is too far.
 
There was definitely an implication, but nobody was stalked or held hostage on that day. A class lead by a white professor who had misinterpreted the email was asked to leave (and glared at) when they showed up at the PoC meeting. That's about it.

Things didn't escalate until a month later. The KKK cartoon of Stacy Brown. Not allowing the president to go to the bathroom without an escort. The stalking of Bret Weinstein and his students. Etc.
 
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