Really guys? Some of us are too old for this shit. To those defending Denuvo, it seems you don't remember that SecuROM games don't work anymore in Windows 10. Microsoft considers it a security risk. There's nothing to assure us that the same won't happen with Denuvo a few years down the line.
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R.I.P Denuvo - Tekken 7 and Dishonored 2 cracked
- Thread starter Elven_Star
- Start date
Lets be clear here. No publisher or industry association has successfully made a case that DRM has helped their sales.
If they keep doing it, surely there would be some evidence of this case? If they want to convince consumers of its necessity then surely they'd be able to put out convincing data of this fact, why would they hide it from the public?
If they keep doing it, surely there would be some evidence of this case? If they want to convince consumers of its necessity then surely they'd be able to put out convincing data of this fact, why would they hide it from the public?
Sounds like bullshit!
MisterShine
Member
In fairness here, isn't it against the neogaf TOS to actually come out in support of piracy, or to say you have and will pirate? So nobody COULD actually make this argument, they would be forced to obfuscate their actual intentions.
Not to say anyone definitely is, but just to point out.
edit:
I've definitely seen a LOT of mobile devs upset at their Android marketplace due to its lax security compared to Apple, that's for sure.
https://venturebeat.com/2015/01/05/...per-only-5-of-android-installs-were-paid-for/
I'm not entirely sure as I haven't really followed it. I was just asking to try and understand the situation, not to challenge the notion per se.
Ah, I see. This makes more sense. I feel the performance impact is the real deal breaker but I wonder if all this is enough to sink them given there is no better DRM alternative yet (that I know of).
Same company as denuvo too! Also the "all pc gamers are pirates and if you hate drm you are literally stealing a game" shitposting in this thread (and every denuvo thread) is getting real fucking old.
My steam library is worth over 10 grand. I still think denuvo is garbage.
ramoisdead
Member
Don't forget TAGES. Seriously, fuck DRM.
I'm in favor of mods, even paid mods! Bring em on. But there are people who have been "forced" to pay for a game because of DRM, when they would just pirate it otherwise. I don't have any numbers on how common this is, but it does happen atleast. I have few friends who have done this. And it's hard for me to believe they would be the only ones.
Yeah there's no denying that mods have done good to sales of games like Skyrim. In cases like this having the DRM to prevent piracy might actually be hurting the sales because the lack of mods.
Lilalaunebaer
Member
Sick. Was it that one dude that has been cracking Denuvo games all by himiself recently again?
DRM doesn´t prevent piracy. If it did and we go by the statistics publishers pulled out of their assholes a few years ago, Tekken 7 should have sold 5 million copies on PC by now.
DRM doesn´t prevent piracy. If it did and we go by the statistics publishers pulled out of their assholes a few years ago, Tekken 7 should have sold 5 million copies on PC by now.
There is one thing that I don't think people here can bellyfeel is the hate some companies, especially some Japanese ones, have towards pirates. They hate them in the guts. They want to stop them from playing their games, even if that means cumbersome DRM and additional cost, with no real benefit in return. Their hate is as strong as your hate towards cumbersome DRM. And modding (which they may see as infringement of IP).
Basically the priorities are different.
I won't shed a tear if and when Denuvo falls. But I am also afraid of the prospect of some games coming to PC due to this event.
Basically the priorities are different.
I won't shed a tear if and when Denuvo falls. But I am also afraid of the prospect of some games coming to PC due to this event.
wow, tekken got cracked almost instantly then, seems to be the same story with Rime. I thought denuvo was like a labyrinth of trial and error to crack till now but looking at how fast this is happening(also RE7 was cracked very quickly after release I think) it seems like they have an autopilot for said labyrinth...
Tekken 7 already sold 120k times and I don't think it's a game you'd want to pirate as you probably won't be able to play it online at all and where's the fun in fighting against CPU all the time?
Tekken 7 already sold 120k times and I don't think it's a game you'd want to pirate as you probably won't be able to play it online at all and where's the fun in fighting against CPU all the time?
Yes Baldman did Tekken. Completely new group did Dishonored 2.
TheSpoiler
Member
After rime had that error which made it run worse on non pirated copies denvuo can eat my ass
That's kind of why people making the blind piracy accusations make them. They hope to catch someone in a "aha!" moment of admitting they're a pirate. Both to confirm their personal views on why DRM exists, as well as baiting them to get banned.
As long as they do it without actually accusing someone directly of being a pirate, they get off free. It's a lazy argument to make.
I don't mean Tekken but some other, more niche games.
There is no direct link there. How many of those people would have paid for the game in the first place?
No doubt you'd be able to correlate something, but what we question is how strong that link is. Something I'd also appreciate is that publishers stop pretending that this is good for the consumer, it isn't. DRM is clearly the fact that they hate piracy so much that they feel it is appropriate to punish honest consumers. I'd respect them more if they were that honest.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Let me tell you how japanese see any copyright infringement (from a normal user): "You are the devil."
Worked for an anime publisher before and the copyright system in Japan is horrible. Companies can infringe whatever they want. No worries. Trace some mangapage from a photo? Well. Its bad, but nothing to cry about. But if salaryman 3 uploads 1 chapter of some manga, he is a horrible person!
Ruin is gonna be pissed.
Yeah we usually don't get posters being this transparent http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=212570814&postcount=123 They were temp banned for that.
There are online cracks too.
Do you really think a renowned company like Ubisoft would do that? Just go out and talk bullshit?
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...-many-pc-players-pay-for-f2p-as-boxed-product
Nah man, he's right. With proper DRM protection Ubisoft games would sell BILLIONS of copies!
GhostTrick
Banned
Niche games are usually too niche to use Denuvo.
Piracy definitely isn't the concern anymore for a PC release and more likely comes down to the cost involved and the feasibility.
And for the record, I own my fair share of Denuvo games. I bought Doom before they decided to remove it, I own Mirrors Edge Catalyst, Prey and so on. A DRM doesn't dissuade me from buying a game that I want. But it makes me happy when they manage to get rid of the DRM, and I'm even happier when it's the company the one who does it in a official way.
GhostTrick
Banned
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Wasnt Tekken 7 released like yesterday?
God Damn thats gotta be the new Crack record.
Are there multiple teams working on cracks now or same players as before, just gotten alot better at beating each new iteration of denuvo.
How much does Denuvo cost to devs/publishers.
Cuz whatever its worth i think tekken getting done in like 2 seconds is bound to make people think twice about ponying up.
P.S I think multiplayer games have it a bit easier cuz some pirates might skip the pirated version to have the fuller community support of legit versions.
xrnzaaas
Member
Some people actually like to play fighting games alone.
Or you can probably play locally since you don't need an Internet connection for that.4 days. 2 groups and 1 solo guy. You can already play pirated Tekken 7 online.
Games started selling ridiculously well on PC well before Denuvo even fucking existed. It wasn't ever a factor for successful PC version sales and it won't ever be.
Well no, that's just for games using Denuvo. Any other game that doesn't is cracked within a day.
MisterShine
Member
Simple economics tells us at least some? If people hold different values for what they feel a product is worth, obviously there is a large group that think it holds 0$ in value, but see enough value to go through the actual effort to download, install and put in further time to play it. Some people would only jump in at 1$, 2$, etc. Some people would pay the 5$, but when they have a 5$ option and a 0$ option and no moral fiber, they will choose that 0$.
Piracy not only removes those individuals (however many there are) it also prevent people who hold it at a lesser value (but not 0) from jumping in during a sale. One of those people who would only jump in at 3$, but pirated it on release day because they didn't want to pay 5, now are much less likely to buy it when it goes on sale a couple months down the road.
I think there's been a lot of hyperbole on the side pubs/devs about how much piracy has cost them (though TBH I haven't seen any of this in the past 3 or 4 years), but to suggest piracy has cause no or a negligible amount of harm is just dumb. Of course two near-identical products, one being full price and the other being free but slightly more annoying to install is going to hurt the sales of the full price one. That is VERY simple economics.
LordRaptor
Member
Console GAF are super against PC piracy, but would crawl through salted glass with their flies open to abuse a pricing error on a regional console storefront to get their 'free' copy of a ropey 70% metacritic game
e:
Yes, nobody know the actual ratio of "would buy if can't pirate" and "will always pirate regardless" but its above 0 and below 1.
The biggest impact on PC piracy has been stopping "0-day" releases - which were sadly relatively common in the past.
Assassins Creed infamously was being played by pirates months before legitimate customers were even allowed to buy it.
The thing is using piracy as the justification for DRM is always going to be the greatest excuse, because it's one of those technicalities you can never truly argue against.
No one is ever going to tell you that piracy isn't bad. Piracy as a concept will always be seen as wrong (and rightfully so).
But without any hard statistics on piracy, AND the methodology behind those numbers, piracy gets to be this wonderful boogyman where you can't deny it exists, and can be used to justify whatever DRM solution, but without ever needing to prove how much of an effect, if any, DRM actually has on the overall return.
I would be more sympathetic to the DRM/anti-piracy crowd if GOG didn't both exist, and seemingly thrive. They literally hand out .exes that people can just re-upload on torrents sites or UseNET or whatever, and yet games still release on there, and they still (seemingly) sell well enough to justify continuing to do so.
No one is ever going to tell you that piracy isn't bad. Piracy as a concept will always be seen as wrong (and rightfully so).
But without any hard statistics on piracy, AND the methodology behind those numbers, piracy gets to be this wonderful boogyman where you can't deny it exists, and can be used to justify whatever DRM solution, but without ever needing to prove how much of an effect, if any, DRM actually has on the overall return.
I would be more sympathetic to the DRM/anti-piracy crowd if GOG didn't both exist, and seemingly thrive. They literally hand out .exes that people can just re-upload on torrents sites or UseNET or whatever, and yet games still release on there, and they still (seemingly) sell well enough to justify continuing to do so.
RedlineRonin
Member
Maybe it's just semantics, but to me, "fuck denuvo" isn't the same as "hey dev/pub, I don't want locked down EXEs etc. in my games"
You're mad at a company for providing a service another company wants and is willing to pay for. You being like "oh fuck them" doesn't make the other company's desire for that service go away. It just makes it so they potentially find another company to provide it.
There's likely plenty of productive conversation to be had about what an acceptable level of DRM is, including no perf drag, modding EXEs etc, but that should be the conversation being had. "arbitrarily fuck X, Y, Z company" isn't productive.
The argument for consumers to be able to access global markets, the same way that businesses leverage them, is a completely separate argument entirely and not really applicable here.
What is the value and lesser experience, from steam and Denuvo, respectively? I don't see a good explanation yet for how Denuvo impacts performance.
I get the preservation angle WRT playing games 10 years down the line. But at the moment if people see their shit getting cracked there may not be any games to play 10 years down the line. Does Denuvo remove protection after a company is past it's initial sales window for a game?
Long story short DRM is security theater for publishers.
CecilRousso
Member
This.
Quality of your product, marketing, timing and sheer luck are all factors that will contribute more to a games sales numbers then excessive DRM.
Just go to steamspy.com and look up some games without excessive DRM like Denuvo, and see how well they sell.
One example: Total War: Warhammer (Denuvo) and XCOM2 (not Denuvo). They were released about the same time, where PC exclusive (XCOM2 added a console version after 6 months), are both strategy games, and are in well known franchises. They have sold the amount of copies.
This idea that more DRM is neccessary for the survival of PC games, where are you getting that from?
Chainsawkitten
Member
And yet GOG and thousands upon thousands of DRM free games continue to exist.
No. A few developers have done so, of their own accord.
I already do. Devs and publishers should stop punishing me for doing so.
you are ignoring people who buy after pirating and the additional exposure gained by having a bigger player base. it's really hard to prove that piracy cost sales.
LordRaptor
Member
I'm not talking about regional pricing.
I'm talking when topics get posted like "PSA: Free Medal Of Honour on the Azerbaijan Marketplace!" and detailed instructions on creating a fake account in a language you don't understand to get "free games"
Velurian
Member
http://www.game-debate.com/news/226...d-doom-benchmarks-with-and-without-denuvo-drm
This one of the games but I dont think there are very many proven cases if any - input is welcome here.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/648c4m/denuvo_pc_performance_impact_tested/
RedlineRonin
Member
Got you. Apologies. I misunderstood.
KojiKnight
Member
My favorite anecdote was when a developer (sorry, can't remember off the top of my head) released their game with and without drm on day one, and it was the drm copy with the protection broken that was most circulated, not the drm one.
The biggest piraters enjoy the thrill of breaking these games more than the convenient easy win.
I think the root problem of all this is that gaming is an expensive hobby and considered a privilege for those with means. Haves and have nots. Profits vs. accessibility vs. ownership.
It's a bit more complex than 'fuck xyz' or 'just buy the thing'. There's a systemic problem tied to the bigger context.
It's a bit more complex than 'fuck xyz' or 'just buy the thing'. There's a systemic problem tied to the bigger context.