dead souls
Member
The guy who made Dollhouse is sexist? I'm shocked.
Whedon has never has been the feminist his most ardent fans claim he is.
Whedon has never has been the feminist his most ardent fans claim he is.
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Joss Whedons leaked Wonder Woman screenplay is mindblowingly sexist
- Thread starter richiek
- Start date
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Internet archiving used to travel back 11 years and call someone shit is often the most petty use. I mean I'm no fan of Whedon's work recently, but Hollywood be weird man. Sometimes you have to write scripts with giant spiders in them because the dude hiring and firing you has a REAL BIG HARD ON for giant spider battles.
I personally never felt like that show reveled in the exploitation of women.
Even the women are thirsty.
It's a bit of a "pick your battle" fallacy of sorts. He's so much better than many that progressive people don't want to look at (or mention) his very blatant flaws. His "sexy teenage girls are my spirit animal" schtick has always felt a bit off to me. Not a fan of his "message".
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Theres a lot of iffy stuff in that script, but I dont see the issue with this (other than some bad dialogue).
The character is obviously a criminal, so him talking like a sexist dirtbag is expected. Doesnt make the writer sexist.
Some of that other stuff though...
Salty Rice
Member
thecouncil
Banned
Exactly. It's NOT Whedons fault. It's the fault of the guy he was supposedly gonna show the script to. I have a feeling Whedon was grinding his teeth as he typed that garbage.
While tearing off his shirt out of self-loathing in a crowded restaurant, no doubt
Adam_Vania
Banned
lol yes back in the year 2006 it was fine to stare at women and exclaim that "It's like Christmas". compare this to Michael Bay who was filming Transformers at this time. at least when Shia LeBouf is oogling Megan Fox he doesn't say "It's like Christmas" give me a break w this juvenile bs.
ah yes, "I was only doing my job", great excuse. well, he was being paid, what do you expect him to do, NOT write like it was an episode of the Man Show?
You very much did not understand that show if you think it was sexist.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
It was just locker room writing
Are you really going to try and compare this to a video of someone admitting to sexual assault?
That's not what I'm saying?
Whedon himself said he was never pleased with his script and this was a draft, an outline, intended to be rewritten and reworked.
You had to know this would happen.
Ew. Buffy will always be his best work bar none.
Buffy's highkey not good
MisterHero
Super Member
Excellent rebuttal.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I mean, "BUFFY IS THE BEST" isn't much of an in-depth analysis, and in turn, my "Angel & Firefly are the best" isn't super-well-explained either.
BUT IF YOU WANT A RANKING THREAD
Whedon has a relatively short attention span, really. And if a project doesn't have 100% of his focus, the quality will diminish rapidly depending on who is left in charge.
Buffy's first season is rough, which is to expected because he wasn't used to running a show. But seasons 2 & 3 were pretty goddamned good. 4? Not so much. 5? Came back strong.
6&7 can take a fuckin walk, for the most part.
Over the course of Buffy's run, even in its best seasons, the quality was sorta/kinda inconsistent. This is to be expected when you hang your show on Sarah Michelle Gellar's acting.
But when Whedon turned his full attention to Angel, not only did Buffy suffer a little, but Angel took off. Angel started at a higher level of quality, and maintained it for longer. Boreanaz was a better lead, and the support was better still, and when Whedon left THAT show to wrap up Buffy and start Firefly, the quality didn't dip as strongly.
And then there's Firefly, which had the benefit of Whedon being a pro at showrunning, and knowing EXACTLY what he wanted to do from jump, as opposed to both Buffy and Angel, where it took a little time to find a groove. Firefly being canceled in the middle of a season and ending with a movie was probably best case scenario, honestly. No time to burn out, get distracted, or diluted.
Buffy: Much more groundbreaking, way more uneven.
Angel: Much more consistent + higher highs (best ending, too)
Firefly: Best execution, most assured storytelling.
I honestly think the deification of King Joss in the mid 2000s, the resurrection of his dead show, and the constant calls to throw him at literally ANY "geek" property (and his finally being gifted one, and it being the fuckin' AVENGERS) dulled him.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Wait, what?
SMG was incredible as Buffy though? Like she's been fairly mediocre of late but she nailed that shit throughout seasons 1-6.
And Angel while having brilliant highs, is easily his most inconsistent work - the season arcs almost never come together in a fully satisfying way, the show has some of the weakest characters in Gunn and Fred, the most annoying and horrible screen stealing characters through Kate, Connor, Eve and eventually Spike, the generally horrible treatment of the female characters (Cordy) and the sausage fest the show generally is.
And Angel while having brilliant highs, is easily his most inconsistent work - the season arcs almost never come together in a fully satisfying way, the show has some of the weakest characters in Gunn and Fred, the most annoying and horrible screen stealing characters through Kate, Connor, Eve and eventually Spike, the generally horrible treatment of the female characters (Cordy) and the sausage fest the show generally is.
Definitely
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Not often.
Buffy was frequently the least interesting thing in the show with her name on it.
You managed to miss that one? Lucky.
I never actually watched the special where it was "revealed" (I don't even think it aired here, though I could be wrong) but there's an article about it here - http://io9.gizmodo.com/5959794/the-firefly-episode-were-really-glad-joss-whedon-didnt-get-to-make
A plotline in S2 would have been Inara gettig raped by the Reavers and using something in her that would've killed them. It was...intrresting
It's a show with lower lows than higher highs. Acting being one of em. Plus I will never be comfortable with the lack of minority characters that do anything.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yeahhhh um, I guess it maybe could have worked in a more dramatic show, but Firefly being more lighthearted worked just fine, hah. Glad they didn't do this.
It was weird re-watching Serenity lately. The movie is way darker in tone than the show was.
Can't agree with that at all.
Yeah, that's pretty horrible.
I still maintain that anything before the final draft is inconsequential since that's the place where you're bullshitting until you make it right, but sheesh.
I'm hoping that he has someone or another to just sit him down and let him know when he's gone off the deep end with his writing.
Jest Chillin
Member
Ah so it was a spec pitch to indicate tone and they never did it, instead they did Bushwhacked and later Heart of Gold.
So it's almost like writers sometimes have bad intial ideas that need to be refined and rewrote a few times to get a good final result.
I mean... I adore Buffy. And I think Firefly was too short to really put above it.
But I think Angel was a better show in the end. That just says how good it was though.
MisterHero
Super Member
Thanks for that. While I agree with much of your summary, I would take the "groundbreaking" seasons over the series that was more consistent. Plus I'm biased towards the former cast.
In retrospect (and back to the thread), I guess I can't expect that kind of quality from everything he does, even this WW script.
I'm coming around to the negative responses to the script, but he's earned enough benefit of the doubt from me. And again, it would be interesting to see how the studio reacted to certain choices. Before dropping it completely, of course.
I'm just more of an Angel fan, always have been. Cordy's character arc through the Jasmine shit was litty
I love Gunn
Wes the God
Fred the GAWD
Just liked it more
Despite the general reaction, this is a good joke.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Welp.
Looks like Whedon is back to his Asshole Phase.
This honestly should not be surprising. He's a Fedora Feminist, and always has been. Dollhouse was a giant soap box for him to talk about how men are horrible. Hell, Firefly tried so hard to make fun of sexism that it actually came off as being sexist to both men and women.
This is the guy that, to a room full of people at Comic-Con, told them to quit being mean to Dawn.
Looks like Whedon is back to his Asshole Phase.
This honestly should not be surprising. He's a Fedora Feminist, and always has been. Dollhouse was a giant soap box for him to talk about how men are horrible. Hell, Firefly tried so hard to make fun of sexism that it actually came off as being sexist to both men and women.
This is the guy that, to a room full of people at Comic-Con, told them to quit being mean to Dawn.
Angel is tied with Breaking Bad, in my mind, for having the greatest character development in television history.
Mad Men does it better than both shows tbh
That title would belong to xander.
excelsiorlef
Member
Xander should have died instead of Tara.
StrategyFan
Member
a fictional character behaving a certain way does not mean that its writer is advocating that people should behave that way
the quoted screenplay is different, but i don't know how much value there is in drawing conclusions from some lines you saw on a completed TV show
the quoted screenplay is different, but i don't know how much value there is in drawing conclusions from some lines you saw on a completed TV show
Random Human
They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
I'm not sure which of these is making me go "Hmmmm" harder.
Do you think people are really that dumb?
I mean, just throwing it out there, but the movie didn't get made. This definitely wouldn't pass most scriptreader's muster, and, lo and behold, it didn't.
meltingparappa
Member
These receipt blog mentality becomes more vindictive by the day.
Some of the assertions in this thread about him as a person, based on a first draft scrambled out over a decade ago, really warranted?
Some of the assertions in this thread about him as a person, based on a first draft scrambled out over a decade ago, really warranted?
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Joss Whedon has always fluctuated between a decent human being an a cynical asshole.
Jesus. That is not a well adjusted human being.
People have been clocking Joss on the more problematic elements of his work since Buffy. This is more another thing to add on to the pile, really.
Hierophant
Banned
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dead souls
Member
Yeah, I don't know how anyone could call Angel consistent outside of the super divisive season 4. All the other seasons frequently veer between "That was amazing" and "Holy shit that was terrible". Some of the episodes in the first three seasons are just atrocious.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Back? That script is 11 years old.
WTF does that even mean?
What on Earth are you talking about?
What an utterly baffling post.
